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Arming Teachers. Who could have EVER seen this coming.

The Mercury News reported that Dennis Alexander, a reserve police officer for Sand City, had been providing safety instructions at Seaside High School when he accidentally fired a single shot from a semi-automatic handgun into the ceiling, police said.
 
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I tend to hate agreeing with the Left but they're right in this case. Arming teachers is a bad idea, NOT because they may not want to, or may not be capable, but because of the risk of accidental shootings. It's a solution equivalent to using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.

If you want guns in schools fine, put in an armed security guard or two (depending on school size.) Heck a lot of bigger high schools do this already.
 
I tend to hate agreeing with the Left but they're right in this case. Arming teachers is a bad idea, NOT because they may not want to, or may not be capable, but because of the risk of accidental shootings. It's a solution equivalent to using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.

If you want guns in schools fine, put in an armed security guard or two (depending on school size.) Heck a lot of bigger high schools do this already.

It's not so much that the Teachers will have to use the weapons or even carry them around on their person. It's the fact that would be school shooters know that there are gun carrying officials on campus and that, in theory, is the deterrent.

It's similar to how the Air Marshall program has helped (in some capacity, because other measures were put in place as well) flights from being hijacked.
 
It's not so much that the Teachers will have to use the weapons or even carry them around on their person. It's the fact that would be school shooters know that there are gun carrying officials on campus and that, in theory, is the deterrent.

It's similar to how the Air Marshall program has helped (in some capacity, because other measures were put in place as well) flights from being hijacked.

Air marshalls are not random dudes who just so happen to go get a CWP and offer up their services to the airlines. They're highly trained cops. Now if you want to train teachers (those willing to volunteer I should say) to the same degree as air marshalls and ensure they remain proficient, then fine, that's a great idea.

But.....that isn't going to happen. Put security guards in schools, that's the best solution.[/QUOTE]
 
Why not require any teacher that carries to pass a course which goes way beyond what is currently required for average citizens?

Have the FBI train them and offer more money to those who complete it.

I am against every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying around pistols in school but a properly trained person is a win/win IMO.
 
hmmm. I think the guy was a "reserve police officer". Probably received more training that the average security guard. The title is a bit misleading. The guy was an

The Mercury News reported that Dennis Alexander, a reserve police officer for Sand City, had been providing safety instructions at Seaside High School when he accidentally fired a single shot from a semi-automatic handgun into the ceiling, police said.

A student was hit in the neck by debris after the bullet ricocheted off the ceiling, but was not seriously injured, police said.

DEBRIS- NOT SERIOUSLY INJURED- ie. pieces of the drop tile ceiling fell on and he dialed all nines.....same thing as getting shot...just different.Similar to .....The reserve police officer is doing safety training at the school = High school teacher.

Also....this is in california. surprised cops are allowed to carry guns out there.
 
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Air marshalls are not random dudes who just so happen to go get a CWP and offer up their services to the airlines. They're highly trained cops. Now if you want to train teachers (those willing to volunteer I should say) to the same degree as air marshalls and ensure they remain proficient, then fine, that's a great idea.

But.....that isn't going to happen. Put security guards in schools, that's the best solution.
Maybe it is the best solution. But the school that just got shot up had security guards
 
I tend to hate agreeing with the Left but they're right in this case. Arming teachers is a bad idea, NOT because they may not want to, or may not be capable, but because of the risk of accidental shootings. It's a solution equivalent to using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.

If you want guns in schools fine, put in an armed security guard or two (depending on school size.) Heck a lot of bigger high schools do this already.
The Florida high school had one too. We need at least 4 armed and thoroughly trained security people at each high school with 1000 or more students. Couple that with sufficient indoor and outdoor cameras that actually work and we will have gotten of to a good start. Unfortunately, somebody has to pay for it.
 
A good story on an Ohio school which already arms certain teachers. There are school districts in the US -- particularly rural areas -- where arming teachers has been going on for years. It's certainly not something every district or school will embrace. It really depends on how comfortable the community is with and around the use of firearms.

One of the teachers in my kids school had to leave and serve a year overseas in the South Carolina National Guard. I'd have zero issues with him having access to a gun at school. He's the exact profile of someone who I would want protecting my kids should a crazed person with a gun come into their school.


WASHINGTON POST
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...6e60e4605f3_story.html?utm_term=.3e0c5ac0ba48
Education
Armed and safe? At Ohio schools, the security plan includes teachers and guns.
By Joe Heim March 12

RIVERSIDE, Ohio — The safes were installed last summer. Thirty-two in all. Spread out among the four elementary schools, the two middle schools, the high school and the administration building of the Mad River Local Schools district here on the outskirts of Dayton.

On Aug. 14, the first day of school for the district’s 3,900 students, each safe contained the centerpiece of the district’s new security plan: a semiautomatic pistol and a removable magazine loaded with bullets.

The guns are not there for law enforcement. There are no armed security guards at the schools. The weapons, paid for with money from the district’s operating budget, are for teachers and staffers who have volunteered and trained to be part of the school’s response team if a shooter enters a building. Each team member has access to a safe that can be reached quickly in case the unthinkable happens.

The White House said Sunday night it will establish a Federal Commission on School Safety, chaired by Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, and will begin working with states to provide “rigorous firearms training” to some schoolteachers.

President Trump and the National Rifle Association have been clear: Make schools fortresses. Employ every deterrence. Fight fire with fire. Arm teachers.

“Armed Educators (and trusted people who work within a school) love our students and will protect them,” Trump tweeted last month. “. . . Shootings will not happen again — a big & very inexpensive deterrent.”

Florida legislators passed a gun bill Wednesday that includes $67 million for the training and arming of certain school staffers, though it excludes full-time teachers from those who are eligible to volunteer. Gov. Rick Scott (R) signed it Friday.

During her visit Wednesday to Stoneman Douglas, DeVos said arming teachers should not be mandated, but she pointed to gun and safety training programs for teachers in Texas and Polk County, Fla., as examples for schools that want to increase security.

“I think that’s a model that can be adopted and should be an option for schools, for states, for communities,” DeVos said.

But gun-control proponents and teachers unions have also been clear: Raise the age to buy guns. Expand mental health access. Ban assault-style weapons. Don’t make teachers do double duty as volunteer security guards.


“The gun lobby’s proposals to arm teachers are a deliberate, outrageous distraction from the real threats we face and the serious policy discussion we need,” said Ari Freilich, a lawyer with the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

According to a Washington Post analysis, it could cost more than $1 billion to arm and train 20 percent of American teachers — a percentage suggested by Trump.

The White House said Sunday that the administration will help military veterans and retired law enforcement transition into new careers in education, and that the Justice Department will work with local and state law enforcement to provide firearms training for teachers and school staffers.

Fifty-nine percent of Americans oppose training teachers to carry guns, according to a recent NPR poll. And 51 percent of respondents in a Washington Post-ABC News poll last month said the Stoneman Douglas shooting could not have been prevented by equipping teachers with guns. Forty-two percent said it could have.

But even as elected leaders and national organizations weigh the political impact of arming teachers, some school districts are already embracing programs that put guns in the hands of educators and staffers.

“Ohio is really ground zero for this,” says Kate Way, an educator and co-producer of the documentary “G Is for Gun: The Arming of Teachers in America,” which airs this month on public television in Ohio. “My sense after following this for three years is that the move to arm teachers is growing like wildfire here.”

Wyen did not sugarcoat the potential dangers for teachers and staffers in his district who wanted to take part.

“We told them, you have to understand that if you choose to do this, you’re putting your life at risk, and you have to be comfortable with that,” he says. They do not get extra pay.

From his staff of 460 system-wide, 50 volunteered to take part. All had experience with guns and possessed concealed-weapons licenses. Each was interviewed several times. Why do you want to do this, they were asked. Can you move toward a threat? If a suspect is a student, can you shoot to stop him from hurting others?

Wyen selected 32 teachers and staff members for his team. Their identities are known only to Wyen and law enforcement. Their anonymity is part of the district’s security strategy. The only sign to outsiders of their existence is one that greets visitors at every entrance to Mad River schools: “WARNING: Inside this building our children are protected by an armed and trained response team.”

Jade Deis, a freshman at the district’s high school, says she feels safer knowing that teachers are armed. “What’s a stapler going to do against a gun?” she asks. For Deis and her friends, the new program hasn’t been the subject of much discussion.

“The teachers don’t talk about it, they don’t show the guns,” she says. “I kind of forget it’s there.”

But some parents, students and teachers have raised concerns that having guns in school makes it more likely that an accidental shooting — or worse — could occur.

“It’s good that they want to protect us, but what if a teacher just pops off? Anyone can go crazy, and then they have the gun right there,” says Jalen Yarbrough, a freshman. “Or let’s say a kid gets rowdy. The teacher could say, ‘I feared for my life and I shot him.’ ”

‘A serious, serious thing’
Sitting at a conference room table at the Premier Shooting and Training Center just north of Cincinnati, Joe Eaton says he hears the same questions from all of the teachers, bus drivers, cafeteria workers and administrators who take part in the gun and tactical training his organization provides to schools across Ohio.

“Am I going to be able to do this? Am I going to be able to perform? Am I going to be outgunned?”

The 52-year-old grandfather, IT professional and gun enthusiast says he also has a question for them: If the shooter is a student or a former student, as most school shooters are, will you be able to stare down the barrel of your gun and pull the trigger?

“The rules of engagement are, if someone is murdering people in your school, you kill them as soon as possible and stop the killing,” says Eaton, the program director for Faster Saves Lives, an emergency-response training program for schools created five years ago by the Buckeye Firearms Foundation, an Ohio nonprofit gun advocacy and training group.

According to Eaton, roughly 1,000 of the 1,300 participants in the Faster program have come from more than 200 Ohio school districts. Demand has never been higher.

When the program began, most participants were former law enforcement, military or hunters, Eaton says. But in the past two years, that has changed: More than half had never touched a firearm until their schools asked them to take part.

During a three-day course, participants study the history of active-shooter situations, engage in tactical drills and maneuvers, practice firearm skills, and work on trauma aid techniques.

So far, none of the Ohio teachers trained to use guns have been forced to do so in a school,Eaton says.

“We’re giving them simple, easy, clearly defined training and tools that they can use in the event of the worst day possible at their school,” he says.

One of the first Ohio districts to arm its teachers was Sidney, a rural community less than an hour north of Dayton. There, the training is extensive and participants are carefully selected, says Superintendent John Scheu, who launched the program five years ago.

“This is not just giving someone a gun. It’s not a hobby. It’s a serious, serious thing,” says a Sidney teacher who participates in the program and asked not to be identified because of the school’s security protocol. “I love to train for it, and I never, ever want to use that training. If your mentality is to be the cowboy, you don’t belong in this program.”

The teacher, who started his career just before the 1999 attack at Columbine High School in Colorado that left 15 dead, says he understands that arming teachers isn’t for every school district.

“Teachers are nurturers,” he says. “And now we’re protectors.”

But Lori Hedberg, who heads the Sidney teachers union, says that’s a choice teachers shouldn’t have to make. She fought to keep the school district from adopting the program. The union lost. Hedberg continues fighting.

“This is a knee-jerk response that won’t solve the problem,” says Hedberg, who has been with the district for 29 years. “Let’s beef up our barriers so a teacher won’t have to shoot a gun. I don’t want a teacher to ever shoot a gun. That is not part of your job description.”
 
E very teacher needs to be armed. Proper training and safety classes. If you do that plus make sure schools are locked down then we end this nonsense. When these little piece of shit kids start getting shot the moment they try to top the last shooter this will die down. Instead we televise it more than anything so the next one tries to one up the last one.
 
Why not require any teacher that carries to pass a course which goes way beyond what is currently required for average citizens?

Have the FBI train them and offer more money to those who complete it.

I am against every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying around pistols in school but a properly trained person is a win/win IMO.

Because even the FBI and police officers get it wrong in highly stressful and not so stressful situations. These are people that handle situations daily.

So if they can’t get it right all the time. Then why should we allow teachers to pass a course so they can carry one? A course. A training class. That’s it. Now something happens and you got 1500 kids running around and a teacher is supposed to act accordingly after a course? Doesn’t compute.

Let’s add in the fact that I guarantee at some point a teacher will shoot a student intentionally because they were “charging” them or some BS.
 
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Yea.....and he was outside the school.

Just me but I would put them inside.
Yeah and one guy with a pistol vs one guy with an AR-15 (or whatever was used) ain’t really gonna cut it either.

Having more armed personnel in the schools might be the solution, but it can’t be teachers/coaches. The local police/sheriffs departments need to be the ones given more funding so that they can provide the resources.
 
E very teacher needs to be armed. Proper training and safety classes. If you do that plus make sure schools are locked down then we end this nonsense. When these little piece of shit kids start getting shot the moment they try to top the last shooter this will die down. Instead we televise it more than anything so the next one tries to one up the last one.

Agreed. It will also help if the State of Florida will actually USE the death penalty once this guy is convicted.
 
Yeah and one guy with a pistol vs one guy with an AR-15 (or whatever was used) ain’t really gonna cut it either.

Having more armed personnel in the schools might be the solution, but it can’t be teachers/coaches. The local police/sheriffs departments need to be the ones given more funding so that they can provide the resources.

Disagree. The school simply needs to post signs warning that it's teachers MAY be armed. Notice how so many of these mass shooting occur in "Gun Free Zones?" Wonder if it will dissuade potential shooter's if there is a threat that someone may shoot back?

Still. The teacher's who opt to carry should get FREE firearms training annually from FBI or similar certified firearms trainers AND all ammunition for training should be free also.
 
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Air marshalls are not random dudes who just so happen to go get a CWP and offer up their services to the airlines. They're highly trained cops. Now if you want to train teachers (those willing to volunteer I should say) to the same degree as air marshalls and ensure they remain proficient, then fine, that's a great idea.

But.....that isn't going to happen. Put security guards in schools, that's the best solution.
[/QUOTE]

It's not rocket science to properly use a pistol. I'm guessing you've never.
 
Yeah and one guy with a pistol vs one guy with an AR-15 (or whatever was used) ain’t really gonna cut it either.

Having more armed personnel in the schools might be the solution, but it can’t be teachers/coaches. The local police/sheriffs departments need to be the ones given more funding so that they can provide the resources.

Im all for giving local police more resources to fund having the guards at schools. We all know what will happen if funding is given to the school boards to fund that effort. They will hire a person (i.e. friend of the county/state Superintendent) who will make $200k to coordinate the guards at all the schools. This person will have a staff of approximately 30 people making 50k to 150K ....and then they will hire a bunch of part time out of work mall cops/TSA "agents" for $25k-$35k to actually guard the schools ...........
 
Meh, it's probably fake news... oh wait, it CAN'T be fake if it's fox right?

Click

Just like with anything, the more there are, the more accidents there are.
And here come the lawyers. One teacher remarked on my Facebook page that school districts who allow teachers to be armed are probably going to find their liability insurance skyrocket.
 
Maybe they should just keep the exterior doors to schools locked.

Sandy Hook principal saw Adam Lanza coming. Got shot trying to barricade a door THAT WAS NOT LOCKED. Lanza got in.

By all accounts, Cruz just walked right in to the school.

Am I dumb for thinking this is an immediate and easy fix?
 
Disagree. The school simply needs to post signs warning that it's teachers MAY be armed. Notice how so many of these mass shooting occur in "Gun Free Zones?" Wonder if it will dissuade potential shooter's if there is a threat that someone may shoot back?

Still. The teacher's who opt to carry should be FREE firearms training annually from FBI or similar certified firearms trainers AND all ammunition for training should be free also.
While I don’t disagree with your points here, I still get hung up on the fact that a teachers role should always be the educator. When we start asking them to provide security measures, we will run into problems. The law enforcement agencies have the set up and are the ones to respond to emergency situations , so I truly believe it’s best to give them the added resources and let them protect the entire school.
 
Teachers are educators, period. What needs to be done is pump up background checks, ban assault weapons, and reduce number of locations you can enter school
What is an assault weapon? No troll, I'm seriously asking, because to me, all weapons are assault weapons.
 
One reason I disagree with arming teachers is that the majority of the kids are bigger than the teachers. What is the next step if a teacher is occupied doing something and a kid out of no where attacks them and take their firearm? A lot of teachers are intimidated by today's youth. Especially black males. Gotta be a better way to protect our kids
 
Why not require any teacher that carries to pass a course which goes way beyond what is currently required for average citizens?

Have the FBI train them and offer more money to those who complete it.

I am against every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying around pistols in school but a properly trained person is a win/win IMO.

OK, lets think this through. Training is only one factor.

Will the teacher actually carry the weapon?

If yes, how many teachers that will be carrying are capable of stopping the average HS male from taking the weapon in a surprise personal attack? Immediately eliminate 95% of the female teachers and about half of the men. Consider the additional threat caused by an agitated student taking a firearm from a teacher- way more than if teacher was unarmed. Terrible alternative for any level above elementary school.

If no, assume the weapon will be secured in a safe either in a class room or admin office. If in class room, imagine the teacher who presently are equally terrified, but also extremely busy trying to marshall students to safe locations and execute a school lock down, now add the responsibility of getting to THEIR class room or the ADMIN office to open a safe and get the weapon. Add to that the fact that each student, including most shooters, will also know who has access to a weapon and where they are stored- not much of a deterrent based on the theory that shooters won't know who has a gun. Non trained staff will not have access so we hope that a trained candidate is near their stored weapon for any response and also hope that the training is adequate and the candidate is resolute. Logistics make this a bad alternative.

While a slight random shooter deterrent benefit may occur, the chances of additional gun violence increases dramatically for student initiated incidents. If more weapons are needed in a school they should be in the possession of a trained professional that is not also charged with teaching and directing students. Elimination of firearms in schools would be preferable to increased weaponization, but we still have to find a way to eliminate anybody that wants a gun from acquiring and using a gun in a school environment.
 
OK, lets think this through. Training is only one factor.

Will the teacher actually carry the weapon?

If yes, how many teachers that will be carrying are capable of stopping the average HS male from taking the weapon in a surprise personal attack? Immediately eliminate 95% of the female teachers and about half of the men. Consider the additional threat caused by an agitated student taking a firearm from a teacher- way more than if teacher was unarmed. Terrible alternative for any level above elementary school.

If no, assume the weapon will be secured in a safe either in a class room or admin office. If in class room, imagine the teacher who presently are equally terrified, but also extremely busy trying to marshall students to safe locations and execute a school lock down, now add the responsibility of getting to THEIR class room or the ADMIN office to open a safe and get the weapon. Add to that the fact that each student, including most shooters, will also know who has access to a weapon and where they are stored- not much of a deterrent based on the theory that shooters won't know who has a gun. Non trained staff will not have access so we hope that a trained candidate is near their stored weapon for any response and also hope that the training is adequate and the candidate is resolute. Logistics make this a bad alternative.

While a slight random shooter deterrent benefit may occur, the chances of additional gun violence increases dramatically for student initiated incidents. If more weapons are needed in a school they should be in the possession of a trained professional that is not also charged with teaching and directing students. Elimination of firearms in schools would be preferable to increased weaponization, but we still have to find a way to eliminate anybody that wants a gun from acquiring and using a gun in a school environment.

I'm not advocating having Coach Jones with a visible firearm on his belt while teaching math. The gun would be in their room contained in a biometric fingerprint safe. A student isn't accessing that gun.

Secondly, whoever is trained will be more than qualified to use their weapon in a responsible way. Being certified to carry would be a big deal and require on going training. I'm thinking 2-3 male teachers from an average school. Pay them an extra $5,000/year to make it worth their time to be prepared.

Odds are these guns will never even be removed from their safe during school hours but it is one heck of a deterrent for a would be terrorist. If it only prevented one attack it would be worth it, right?
 
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I'm not advocating having Coach Jones with a visible firearm on his belt while teaching math. The gun would be in their room contained in a biometric fingerprint safe. A student isn't accessing that gun.

Secondly, whoever is trained will be more than qualified to use their weapon in a responsible way. Being certified to carry would be a big deal and require on going training. I'm thinking 2-3 male teachers from an average school. Pay them an extra $5,000/year to make it worth their time to be prepared.

Odds are these guns will never even be removed from their safe during school hours but it is one heck of a deterrent for a would be terrorist. If it only prevented one attack it would be worth it, right?

I have a friend who was on my home counties' "fast response" team in addition to being a deputy. That would probably be the equivalent of SWAT light in a big city. They had heavier weapons (AR-15s) and body armor and had some extended training. A couple of times a year, they'd actually go somewhere to train with a SWAT team or some equivalent (although they had to pay their own way). According to him the folks he trained with said a forced entry into a school with a shooter or shooters active and students trapped inside is an absolute "nightmare" situation The only thing worse according to them was forced entry into an airliner with hostages.

If guys who train for this kind of thing (it's their full time job) are sweating it, I'm not sure how you'd expect a teacher that has a couple of hours of training a year (or even a couple of weeks) to perform well.

I'm not busting on you, especially when I have no better solution to offer, but this seems like a really bad idea on the surface.

I just think the chances of these guns being used in the way we would HOPE that they'd be used (ie: stop the shooter) is much less than them being a problem (ie: accidents, safes left unlocked, teachers being forced to hand over the guns by aggressors, or even just being a good guy running around the school with a gun when the cops storm the place... at least the cops know now that they can just shoot the guy with the gun... if you have teachers with guns, that's no longer true.)

I just think that more people would die under your plan than as things are (which sucks).
 
I'm not advocating having Coach Jones with a visible firearm on his belt while teaching math. The gun would be in their room contained in a biometric fingerprint safe. A student isn't accessing that gun.

Secondly, whoever is trained will be more than qualified to use their weapon in a responsible way. Being certified to carry would be a big deal and require on going training. I'm thinking 2-3 male teachers from an average school. Pay them an extra $5,000/year to make it worth their time to be prepared.

Odds are these guns will never even be removed from their safe during school hours but it is one heck of a deterrent for a would be terrorist. If it only prevented one attack it would be worth it, right?

People react differently to situations- shooting someone you know wouldn't be easy, plus nurses and teachers are about the worst when it comes to fighting back.

Wonder if they hesitate just a bit in shooting one of their students.

What about if it resulted in additional deaths, even incidental? Still worth it?

Finally, you can't choose just 2-3 male teachers, law will require you open up any compensation based plan to everyone- now let's think about that 5'3" 115 lb 9th grade math teacher as opposed to former Marine DL football coach.

I appreciate the need to do something, arming teachers just isn't it.
 
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