Clemson and NewSpring
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Just joined a "megachurch" on a different level in Greenville, Grace Church. Matt Williams, a Clemson guy and the main teaching pastor, basically talked about how the church operated as far as elders, deacons, etc at the new member class. He alluded to the fact that NewSpring, although not mentioning them specifically, the head pastor basically can make all decisions.
Just curious on how that truly works at NewSpring. Just seems like Perry has a lot of power, but I really don't know. Seemed like Grace had a really good system for a church of that size where it would be nearly impossible to have votes for every single budget concern.
Mainly, I just wanted to be a part of this 9 page thread.
Just curious on how that truly works at NewSpring. Just seems like Perry has a lot of power, but I really don't know. Seemed like Grace had a really good system for a church of that size where it would be nearly impossible to have votes for every single budget concern.
Mainly, I just wanted to be a part of this 9 page thread.
You know the answer to this. It would make a lot of members extremely angry and a bunch of people would quit tithing/attending.
I have never been a fan of a church not disclosing their budgets. If Perry is making $1,000,000/year he needs to let the "owners" know it. Personally, I wouldn't have a huge problem with a large salary because he is basically the CEO of 20,000 people and should be paid well. But let the members decide if he is worth that much money.
He could simply tell them they suck at life if they don't like his salary and let the chips fall where they may.
We as Christians are commanded to take care of our leaders and provide for them. I would never want those on staff at my church to struggle financially but I also wouldn't want a leader who thought being paid a million a year was more important than using that money for outreach.
I know I'm 9 pages late but how Christian of you. Such nice language and way to turn the other cheek.
Ok, now I really have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know what a "seeker church" is, but by definition, shouldn't all churches consider themselves "seeker churches"? That's one of the primary reasons why Newspring is so great. It's ok not to be perfect, "it's ok not to be ok, but it's not ok to stay that way". That's one of the little sayings Newspring has. You should check out my other posts in this thread, I've made so many I'm not sure which one it is. But I compare how other churches operate, how they would rather ignore problems so that everyone can bask in each other's perfectness rather than admitting they are screwed up sinners and they need help. If you aren't perfect at other churches, like if you get divorced or if you admitted you were an addict, they'd ask you to leave and turn their back on you rather than support you and give you the guidance and help that you need.
But back on topic, again, I don't know any Christians or any "seekers" who are offended by the cross. I don't understand that but I'll take your word for it. To be 100% honest, I never even realized Newspring didn't have any crosses anywhere, but after it was pointed out I realized it was true. I don't know why that is the case, but the way I look at it is this, Jesus isn't Lord because he was crucified, Jesus is Lord because he rose from the dead. Lots of people were crucified back in those days, only one ever came back. When you really think about it, it's kind of creepy that Christians celebrate a device used for torture and death. Don't worry, I get it, Jesus conquered the cross and death, but apparently Newspring chooses to illustrate that with the empty tomb rather than the cross. Glad I learned that.
It wasn't "my survey", LOL. I googled "what percentage of Christians tithe". Obviously, there were a bunch of different sources and different results, but the highest percentage I saw was 7%, but I only looked at the first few websites. Yes, God does multiply the tithes, that's why it's important to tithe to the church and not wherever you please as some people do, and technically speaking, those aren't tithes anyway, tithes specifically go to the church. Those other donations are just that, charitable donations or offerings.
Trading - two of the main responsibilities of the church are to spread the gospel, and to make disciples/aid the spiritual growth of believers (as I'm sure you would agree). You are correct that all churches should do both, but most don't excel at both.
"Seeker" churches can have a negative connotation to some, but I don't mean it that way. "Seeker friendly" churches generally put more emphasis on spreading the gospel, focusing on the growth of the membership, are sometimes characterized my marketing strategies and new-school entrepreneurial strategies to get non-believers to attend. Based on what I have read about NS it seems to fit this model, and my intention is not to criticize. Many "seeker" churches in Atlanta and across the country are making a conscious decision to omit the cross from their facilities because they think it may make the non-believers that they are reaching out to uncomfortable. I agree with you that no one should be offended by the cross, but many churches feel differently. That's what I was asking about NS, and I shouldn't have done it in a snarky and confusing way.
I think you and I have been talking past each other in this thread & I take the blame for that. I believe the cross as a symbol is much more significant than you do, but that is a minor disagreement that won't keep either of us out of heaven and isn't worth debating in this thread. Thanks for your responses.
"Seeker" churches can have a negative connotation to some, but I don't mean it that way. "Seeker friendly" churches generally put more emphasis on spreading the gospel, focusing on the growth of the membership, are sometimes characterized my marketing strategies and new-school entrepreneurial strategies to get non-believers to attend. Based on what I have read about NS it seems to fit this model, and my intention is not to criticize. Many "seeker" churches in Atlanta and across the country are making a conscious decision to omit the cross from their facilities because they think it may make the non-believers that they are reaching out to uncomfortable. I agree with you that no one should be offended by the cross, but many churches feel differently. That's what I was asking about NS, and I shouldn't have done it in a snarky and confusing way.
I think you and I have been talking past each other in this thread & I take the blame for that. I believe the cross as a symbol is much more significant than you do, but that is a minor disagreement that won't keep either of us out of heaven and isn't worth debating in this thread. Thanks for your responses.
Since the Church has existed, the biggest enemy and largest obstacle to winning souls has been Christians.
I once believed all the same garbage spewed about NewSpring without going for myself. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I had to repent of that once I saw for myself. I am telling you, don't trash people who are worshiping the same God you claim to and are growing his kingdom like nothing I've ever witnessed in person.
Perry will be held to a higher standard in God's eyes and he knows that. I have been going there for 9 years now and I have seen him evolve over that time. The man LOVES Jesus and wants to see others do the same, but at the same time, he is a sinner like all of us. He has shown extreme humility and transparency. He isn't perfect and he will tell you that. I have 3 children that were saved there. I have grown spiritually more there than I had in my previous 22 years.
I think some of these people sound EXACTLY like the Pharisees did, and I would examine my motives if that were me. That has been the biggest thorn in the church's side for hundreds of years.
The questions being asked don't have any possible answer that would satisfy your presuppositions. I think every church has a place and none of them are for everyone. If you don't like it, don't go. If you haven't been, why are you talking? Back it up. Go to a service and then come back with your opinion. If you keep speaking out of ignorance, you look foolish. Remember, I have been on both sides of this argument. I never bashed them in a public forum, but I believed the lies. If you say you are a Christian, we are on the same team. Why sabotage the great commission?
I once believed all the same garbage spewed about NewSpring without going for myself. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I had to repent of that once I saw for myself. I am telling you, don't trash people who are worshiping the same God you claim to and are growing his kingdom like nothing I've ever witnessed in person.
Perry will be held to a higher standard in God's eyes and he knows that. I have been going there for 9 years now and I have seen him evolve over that time. The man LOVES Jesus and wants to see others do the same, but at the same time, he is a sinner like all of us. He has shown extreme humility and transparency. He isn't perfect and he will tell you that. I have 3 children that were saved there. I have grown spiritually more there than I had in my previous 22 years.
I think some of these people sound EXACTLY like the Pharisees did, and I would examine my motives if that were me. That has been the biggest thorn in the church's side for hundreds of years.
The questions being asked don't have any possible answer that would satisfy your presuppositions. I think every church has a place and none of them are for everyone. If you don't like it, don't go. If you haven't been, why are you talking? Back it up. Go to a service and then come back with your opinion. If you keep speaking out of ignorance, you look foolish. Remember, I have been on both sides of this argument. I never bashed them in a public forum, but I believed the lies. If you say you are a Christian, we are on the same team. Why sabotage the great commission?
I don't know if these are your own words or not but I specifically bold these 2 sentences for a reason. Perry Noble CAN'T show transparency because he has abused his position and has taken advantage of the weak, ignorant and complacent people that have blindly given him money. The only way that you could alleviate any suspicion is to open your books to the general public.
I will ask you the same thing I"ve asked countless other sheeple in this thread. How can you be certain that your money is being spent in a responsible manner? And please refrain from any blind faith references and/or lives "saved" quotas.
dude you should give it a rest...calling people ignorant that give money to Newspring....Dabo is an owner and tithes there...guess he is ignorant too? Jeff Scott goes to NS....tons of good Clemson people do....give it a rest already...gezz
I agree. Don't care what church the player/coaches go to but don't want PN anywhere near the team. If he is the chaplain he shouldn't be. If he has a office in west endzone he shouldn't. How many people go to NS just to see Dabo, T Boyd, Sammy Watkins, Hopkins, or spiller possibly there on Sunday?
I know that Perry Noble is a part of the athletic program whether officially or unofficially. This needs to stop. If PN does something crazy because hes overwhelmed with depression or if hes not being forthright about how the moneys being spent, Clemson University doesn't need to be smeared as a result of being in bed with NS..
We get it. You hate NewSpring and Perry. Everyone that goes there is ignorant and blind. You are much smarter.
We have a financial report every year. I have seen FIRST HAND what is done with the money. They don't need to advertise to skeptics like yourself how they help the community. What good would it do? Any answer to any of your questions wouldn't change your hate.
I know this. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I was skeptical about the NS as well. Why? Because I believed the lies spewed mostly by other "Christians". It's sad really. You, me, Perry and everyone will all have to answer to GOD for how we lived our lives for him. I'll take his judgement over anyone else's. I understand non believers bashing the church, but when I see others who claim to know Christ spewing hatred towards a group of believers, all I can think of is the Pharisees. It's almost identical. If you have never been to a service, you really have NO basis for what you are saying. If you have and it's not for you, then fine. I know you won't hear New Spring members bashing other churches. In fact, we partner with several churches, large and small, in an effort to bring as many to Christ as we can.
I have 3 children, and they were all saved at New Spring. I take offense to anyone who belittles their salvation because you don't like the Pastor. Jesus saves people, not the pastor. Thousands of people have accepted Christ due to New Spring and their members. Remember, I once believed the lies as well. I repented for that after actually seeing for myself. What if you found out you were completely wrong about your attitude? Even if I felt that way, I sure wouldn't say anything publicly.
We have a financial report every year. I have seen FIRST HAND what is done with the money. They don't need to advertise to skeptics like yourself how they help the community. What good would it do? Any answer to any of your questions wouldn't change your hate.
I know this. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I was skeptical about the NS as well. Why? Because I believed the lies spewed mostly by other "Christians". It's sad really. You, me, Perry and everyone will all have to answer to GOD for how we lived our lives for him. I'll take his judgement over anyone else's. I understand non believers bashing the church, but when I see others who claim to know Christ spewing hatred towards a group of believers, all I can think of is the Pharisees. It's almost identical. If you have never been to a service, you really have NO basis for what you are saying. If you have and it's not for you, then fine. I know you won't hear New Spring members bashing other churches. In fact, we partner with several churches, large and small, in an effort to bring as many to Christ as we can.
I have 3 children, and they were all saved at New Spring. I take offense to anyone who belittles their salvation because you don't like the Pastor. Jesus saves people, not the pastor. Thousands of people have accepted Christ due to New Spring and their members. Remember, I once believed the lies as well. I repented for that after actually seeing for myself. What if you found out you were completely wrong about your attitude? Even if I felt that way, I sure wouldn't say anything publicly.
Questions or concerns with a church/pastor involved with our football team doesn't equal hate towards NS, PN, or the "owners" they are valid concerns. Stop getting so defensive. It's great you guys enjoy it. I have questions that will never be answered even if I went there. There is NO transparency, PN will not do my funeral, kids wedding etc. I probably would never have the opportunity to meet him. Those are the reasons I will not give your church a chance. If you like that and it works for you great but people that question do not hate.
Jesus sent the disciples out to found his Church. He said "Go and be one amongst the people. Comfort the sick, console the hurt and advise the sinner. Who's sins you forgive they are forgiven, whos sins you retain they are retained."
The role of the "leader" (Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, grand pooba...call them what you will) is to lead the people. Perry disassociats from his people.
Fianlly, you have NS members IN THIS THREAD bashing other churches. Saying how other churches kick out people who get divorces and NS welcomes them without ever citing a single example, yet you gloss over specific examples of NS acts by "no one is perfect". The you hurl proclamations about "no NS member will ever bash another church" Right after its done in this thread.
Man this is gettign scarier by the second, it is like all NS members are coached in their replies...almost like Perry engages dialogue from the pulpit about how to respond to his detractors....Oh wait...
I dont hate New Spring, I dont Hate Perry.
I do not trust Perry and I abjectly distrust several members of New Spring based on my first hand experiences.
That was easy. You aren't interested in seeing for yourself, but you'll gladly regurgitate the same things about it over and over on a sports message board. All I can say is that we are both strong on our convictions. The only difference is mine is based on actual experience. Watch online if you like. Easter service was great!
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
with all due respect the people regurgitating the same lines over and over are the new spring owners that's what's scary
Tigris Maximus, you claim you've seen the finacial report. Great! Can you provide a link to it? If not, how much of the revenue is being spent on community outreach? How much is Noble compensated?
I don't need to go to every church in the state to see if they are acting responsibly with their funds, I can look it up online. You can't with NS. Why is that? And please save the "you hate our church" rhetoric. Let's put emotion aside and talk REAL numbers about NS. I'm game if you are!
I don't need to go to every church in the state to see if they are acting responsibly with their funds, I can look it up online. You can't with NS. Why is that? And please save the "you hate our church" rhetoric. Let's put emotion aside and talk REAL numbers about NS. I'm game if you are!
Sir,
You didnt read my earlier posts.
I attended NS for apprx 1 year.
My convictions are based on MY EXPERIENCES.
I'm not an owner but I go. Hey, Newspring may not be for everyone, but I like it and get what I need spiritually out of going. For the people who think Perry makes it all about him, haven't been. God is the rock star at that church.
This is a good point. I had not thought about it from this perspective. The problem I have with New Spring is their theology which turns God into a Holy Santa Claus, rewarding the worthy.
