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Clemson and NewSpring

Just joined a "megachurch" on a different level in Greenville, Grace Church. Matt Williams, a Clemson guy and the main teaching pastor, basically talked about how the church operated as far as elders, deacons, etc at the new member class. He alluded to the fact that NewSpring, although not mentioning them specifically, the head pastor basically can make all decisions.

Just curious on how that truly works at NewSpring. Just seems like Perry has a lot of power, but I really don't know. Seemed like Grace had a really good system for a church of that size where it would be nearly impossible to have votes for every single budget concern.

Mainly, I just wanted to be a part of this 9 page thread.
 
Originally posted by The89Tiger:


Originally posted by TillKnows:


Originally posted by tiger-gal2:

I understand the concept of tithing and it is biblical. But also in the bible we are admonished to be wise stewards of our money. Do you think the thousands of people that gave Jim and Tammy Faye Baker 10% of their income were wise stewards? That is why it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that there is complete transparency as regards finances within the church. Not some percentage chart but a honest dollar by dollar accounting of what comes in and precisely where it goes.
EXACTLY. Has anyone been able to tell us why they require 17. MILLION. PER. YEAR. in salaries?

This is especially disturbing when you take into account only 9% (4.6 Million) went to outreach and 21% (10.9 Million) went to facilities upgrades.

Still waiting.
The percent quoted for missions can be misleading. I mean all churches are accomplishing ministry and mission with their staff and facilities. Those numbers don't bother me in and of themselves. The problem is no one can say what really makes them up.

I have yet to see a New Spring owner be able to give a good reason that their budget is not transparent. I would not be a member of any church that kept information like that secret.

I understand Tithing and why it is not designated giving. However, many here connect tithing with budgets. That is the mistake. You don't wash your hands of where the church spends its money because you tithe. As an active member, you are called to help discern the God's will for His church. God tasks us with being good stewards of His resources and working together to spread the Gospel.

The idea that a church isn't willing to share its plan for mission and ministry (ie, the budget) with the members that support it is totally opposite of how we are called to serve Christ in my opinion. One of the purposes of corporate worship and fellowship is to hold each other accountable and support each other when someone struggles.

As others have pointed out, we are all sinners. That includes the leaders of the church. Secrecy is not a good thing for our leaders. It allows them to fall into sin and not be held accountable. Just because NewSpring or Elevation purports to bring thousands to Christ, they are not above operating in a responsible manner that is above reproach. The issues with most church scandals can be traced back to secrecy and cover-ups. When a scandal happens it can cause huge issues for members as well as those that have yet to find Christ. This is how roadblocks to finding Christ are built. Transparency can help prevent scandals and sin.

So, again, I am waiting to hear why it is necessary to keep a Church budget secret.
You know the answer to this. It would make a lot of members extremely angry and a bunch of people would quit tithing/attending.

I have never been a fan of a church not disclosing their budgets. If Perry is making $1,000,000/year he needs to let the "owners" know it. Personally, I wouldn't have a huge problem with a large salary because he is basically the CEO of 20,000 people and should be paid well. But let the members decide if he is worth that much money.

He could simply tell them they suck at life if they don't like his salary and let the chips fall where they may.

We as Christians are commanded to take care of our leaders and provide for them. I would never want those on staff at my church to struggle financially but I also wouldn't want a leader who thought being paid a million a year was more important than using that money for outreach.
 
I know I'm 9 pages late but how Christian of you. Such nice language and way to turn the other cheek.
Originally posted by haymond1977:
Miller got it right. I used to be very concerned when I heard of a "movement" or a creative speaker luring people in to the tent! I watched a traveling tent guy, dude named Jay Stract or something, save a bunch of my friends and got them on such an emotional high. When they came off the high, they were back to the good ole drunks that were me and my friends.

When I first attended NewSpring some 7 years ago, I was very skeptical of the whole thing. That first day, Perry preached on false idols and stated that if you worship me, and do no know Jesus Christ, you will surely go to hell. He also went on to talk about how he was so flawed and really had to battle to keep away from a porn addiction. At that time I was rubbing out 3 a day and thought people who didn't do that were gay! lol.

Which brings me to today. I am a very flawed Christian and a proud to be a NewSpring member. I try not to get defensive of legalists and non believers saying bad things about NewSpring but they say the things, that through my experiences, I would have said years ago but now I know better. I have a dude I work with who asked where I went to church and I told him NewSpring. He responded with a shitty "Ugh!" and said "If I wanted to go to a rock concert I would go there but I want to go to church!". This dude has a wife that only wears dresses and no makeup, doesn't believe in wearing wedding rings because they are too flashy and has pressed the issue at work over our boss telling him he needs to read his Bible at home instead of at work. Never once in all his blabbering all this bull crap did I judge dude or say anything to him. The one time he asks me about my church, the only thing that comes out of his cocksucker is "Ugh". That's why I get a little ill with people saying crap about NewSpring. Just shut your stupid mouths.
 
Originally posted by HFBTiger:
Trading Tiger - You completely misunderstood my point, and maybe that's my fault so I'll try to be more clear. You stated that NS/Perry doesn't care about making people uncomfortable, and presented as evidence the willingness to talk early and often about tithing and money (I have no problem with someone preaching about tithing or stewardship).

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) NS doesn't have crosses but instead focuses on the empty tomb. Many seeker churches eliminate the cross because it makes seekers feel "uncomfortable." I'm just curious if NS reasoning is the same, since they don't care about making people uncomfortable?

Not worrying about offending anyone by preaching about tithing every week but worried about offending someone by displaying the cross in His house of worship? Maybe I have the wrong impression. Or maybe "I love my Church" t-shirts are a better idea than the symbol of Christianity since the advent of Christendom.

Also, if only 10% of church members (i'm not sure how "Christians" are defined in your survey that you made up for this post) are tithing, then the Lord is multiplying those dollars as he did the loaves and fishes based on the church buildings, budgets, and outreach that I see.


Ok, now I really have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't know what a "seeker church" is, but by definition, shouldn't all churches consider themselves "seeker churches"? That's one of the primary reasons why Newspring is so great. It's ok not to be perfect, "it's ok not to be ok, but it's not ok to stay that way". That's one of the little sayings Newspring has. You should check out my other posts in this thread, I've made so many I'm not sure which one it is. But I compare how other churches operate, how they would rather ignore problems so that everyone can bask in each other's perfectness rather than admitting they are screwed up sinners and they need help. If you aren't perfect at other churches, like if you get divorced or if you admitted you were an addict, they'd ask you to leave and turn their back on you rather than support you and give you the guidance and help that you need.

But back on topic, again, I don't know any Christians or any "seekers" who are offended by the cross. I don't understand that but I'll take your word for it. To be 100% honest, I never even realized Newspring didn't have any crosses anywhere, but after it was pointed out I realized it was true. I don't know why that is the case, but the way I look at it is this, Jesus isn't Lord because he was crucified, Jesus is Lord because he rose from the dead. Lots of people were crucified back in those days, only one ever came back. When you really think about it, it's kind of creepy that Christians celebrate a device used for torture and death. Don't worry, I get it, Jesus conquered the cross and death, but apparently Newspring chooses to illustrate that with the empty tomb rather than the cross. Glad I learned that.

It wasn't "my survey", LOL. I googled "what percentage of Christians tithe". Obviously, there were a bunch of different sources and different results, but the highest percentage I saw was 7%, but I only looked at the first few websites. Yes, God does multiply the tithes, that's why it's important to tithe to the church and not wherever you please as some people do, and technically speaking, those aren't tithes anyway, tithes specifically go to the church. Those other donations are just that, charitable donations or offerings.
 
Trading - two of the main responsibilities of the church are to spread the gospel, and to make disciples/aid the spiritual growth of believers (as I'm sure you would agree). You are correct that all churches should do both, but most don't excel at both.

"Seeker" churches can have a negative connotation to some, but I don't mean it that way. "Seeker friendly" churches generally put more emphasis on spreading the gospel, focusing on the growth of the membership, are sometimes characterized my marketing strategies and new-school entrepreneurial strategies to get non-believers to attend. Based on what I have read about NS it seems to fit this model, and my intention is not to criticize. Many "seeker" churches in Atlanta and across the country are making a conscious decision to omit the cross from their facilities because they think it may make the non-believers that they are reaching out to uncomfortable. I agree with you that no one should be offended by the cross, but many churches feel differently. That's what I was asking about NS, and I shouldn't have done it in a snarky and confusing way.

I think you and I have been talking past each other in this thread & I take the blame for that. I believe the cross as a symbol is much more significant than you do, but that is a minor disagreement that won't keep either of us out of heaven and isn't worth debating in this thread. Thanks for your responses.
 
Originally posted by NottingHillTiger:
Thread has jumped the shark
Ya think?! LOL

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@perrynoble 10m
Meet @tayscott7 (#3 for Clemson) - he accepted Christ @newspring tonight!!!

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Since the Church has existed, the biggest enemy and largest obstacle to winning souls has been Christians.
I once believed all the same garbage spewed about NewSpring without going for myself. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I had to repent of that once I saw for myself. I am telling you, don't trash people who are worshiping the same God you claim to and are growing his kingdom like nothing I've ever witnessed in person.
Perry will be held to a higher standard in God's eyes and he knows that. I have been going there for 9 years now and I have seen him evolve over that time. The man LOVES Jesus and wants to see others do the same, but at the same time, he is a sinner like all of us. He has shown extreme humility and transparency. He isn't perfect and he will tell you that. I have 3 children that were saved there. I have grown spiritually more there than I had in my previous 22 years.
I think some of these people sound EXACTLY like the Pharisees did, and I would examine my motives if that were me. That has been the biggest thorn in the church's side for hundreds of years.
The questions being asked don't have any possible answer that would satisfy your presuppositions. I think every church has a place and none of them are for everyone. If you don't like it, don't go. If you haven't been, why are you talking? Back it up. Go to a service and then come back with your opinion. If you keep speaking out of ignorance, you look foolish. Remember, I have been on both sides of this argument. I never bashed them in a public forum, but I believed the lies. If you say you are a Christian, we are on the same team. Why sabotage the great commission?
 
Originally posted by Tigris Maximus:
Since the Church has existed, the biggest enemy and largest obstacle to winning souls has been Christians.
I once believed all the same garbage spewed about NewSpring without going for myself. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I had to repent of that once I saw for myself. I am telling you, don't trash people who are worshiping the same God you claim to and are growing his kingdom like nothing I've ever witnessed in person.
Perry will be held to a higher standard in God's eyes and he knows that. I have been going there for 9 years now and I have seen him evolve over that time. The man LOVES Jesus and wants to see others do the same, but at the same time, he is a sinner like all of us. He has shown extreme humility and transparency. He isn't perfect and he will tell you that. I have 3 children that were saved there. I have grown spiritually more there than I had in my previous 22 years.
I think some of these people sound EXACTLY like the Pharisees did, and I would examine my motives if that were me. That has been the biggest thorn in the church's side for hundreds of years.
The questions being asked don't have any possible answer that would satisfy your presuppositions. I think every church has a place and none of them are for everyone. If you don't like it, don't go. If you haven't been, why are you talking? Back it up. Go to a service and then come back with your opinion. If you keep speaking out of ignorance, you look foolish. Remember, I have been on both sides of this argument. I never bashed them in a public forum, but I believed the lies. If you say you are a Christian, we are on the same team. Why sabotage the great commission?
I don't know if these are your own words or not but I specifically bold these 2 sentences for a reason. Perry Noble CAN'T show transparency because he has abused his position and has taken advantage of the weak, ignorant and complacent people that have blindly given him money. The only way that you could alleviate any suspicion is to open your books to the general public.

I will ask you the same thing I"ve asked countless other sheeple in this thread. How can you be certain that your money is being spent in a responsible manner? And please refrain from any blind faith references and/or lives "saved" quotas.
 
dude you should give it a rest...calling people ignorant that give money to Newspring....Dabo is an owner and tithes there...guess he is ignorant too? Jeff Scott goes to NS....tons of good Clemson people do....give it a rest already...gezz
Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Tigris Maximus:
Since the Church has existed, the biggest enemy and largest obstacle to winning souls has been Christians.
I once believed all the same garbage spewed about NewSpring without going for myself. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I had to repent of that once I saw for myself. I am telling you, don't trash people who are worshiping the same God you claim to and are growing his kingdom like nothing I've ever witnessed in person.
Perry will be held to a higher standard in God's eyes and he knows that. I have been going there for 9 years now and I have seen him evolve over that time. The man LOVES Jesus and wants to see others do the same, but at the same time, he is a sinner like all of us. He has shown extreme humility and transparency. He isn't perfect and he will tell you that. I have 3 children that were saved there. I have grown spiritually more there than I had in my previous 22 years.
I think some of these people sound EXACTLY like the Pharisees did, and I would examine my motives if that were me. That has been the biggest thorn in the church's side for hundreds of years.
The questions being asked don't have any possible answer that would satisfy your presuppositions. I think every church has a place and none of them are for everyone. If you don't like it, don't go. If you haven't been, why are you talking? Back it up. Go to a service and then come back with your opinion. If you keep speaking out of ignorance, you look foolish. Remember, I have been on both sides of this argument. I never bashed them in a public forum, but I believed the lies. If you say you are a Christian, we are on the same team. Why sabotage the great commission?
I don't know if these are your own words or not but I specifically bold these 2 sentences for a reason. Perry Noble CAN'T show transparency because he has abused his position and has taken advantage of the weak, ignorant and complacent people that have blindly given him money. The only way that you could alleviate any suspicion is to open your books to the general public.

I will ask you the same thing I"ve asked countless other sheeple in this thread. How can you be certain that your money is being spent in a responsible manner? And please refrain from any blind faith references and/or lives "saved" quotas.
 
I've tried my best to be respectful but after hours of research and beating my head against the wall with your kind, I have lost all patience. Just make sure you keep the snake charmer, Perry Noble, away from the Program.
Originally posted by JP09191978:
dude you should give it a rest...calling people ignorant that give money to Newspring....Dabo is an owner and tithes there...guess he is ignorant too? Jeff Scott goes to NS....tons of good Clemson people do....give it a rest already...gezz
Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Tigris Maximus:
Since the Church has existed, the biggest enemy and largest obstacle to winning souls has been Christians.
I once believed all the same garbage spewed about NewSpring without going for myself. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I had to repent of that once I saw for myself. I am telling you, don't trash people who are worshiping the same God you claim to and are growing his kingdom like nothing I've ever witnessed in person.
Perry will be held to a higher standard in God's eyes and he knows that. I have been going there for 9 years now and I have seen him evolve over that time. The man LOVES Jesus and wants to see others do the same, but at the same time, he is a sinner like all of us. He has shown extreme humility and transparency. He isn't perfect and he will tell you that. I have 3 children that were saved there. I have grown spiritually more there than I had in my previous 22 years.
I think some of these people sound EXACTLY like the Pharisees did, and I would examine my motives if that were me. That has been the biggest thorn in the church's side for hundreds of years.
The questions being asked don't have any possible answer that would satisfy your presuppositions. I think every church has a place and none of them are for everyone. If you don't like it, don't go. If you haven't been, why are you talking? Back it up. Go to a service and then come back with your opinion. If you keep speaking out of ignorance, you look foolish. Remember, I have been on both sides of this argument. I never bashed them in a public forum, but I believed the lies. If you say you are a Christian, we are on the same team. Why sabotage the great commission?
I don't know if these are your own words or not but I specifically bold these 2 sentences for a reason. Perry Noble CAN'T show transparency because he has abused his position and has taken advantage of the weak, ignorant and complacent people that have blindly given him money. The only way that you could alleviate any suspicion is to open your books to the general public.

I will ask you the same thing I"ve asked countless other sheeple in this thread. How can you be certain that your money is being spent in a responsible manner? And please refrain from any blind faith references and/or lives "saved" quotas.
 
I agree. Don't care what church the player/coaches go to but don't want PN anywhere near the team. If he is the chaplain he shouldn't be. If he has a office in west endzone he shouldn't. How many people go to NS just to see Dabo, T Boyd, Sammy Watkins, Hopkins, or spiller possibly there on Sunday?
 
I know that Perry Noble is a part of the athletic program whether officially or unofficially. This needs to stop. If PN does something crazy because hes overwhelmed with depression or if hes not being forthright about how the moneys being spent, Clemson University doesn't need to be smeared as a result of being in bed with NS..
 
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We get it. You hate NewSpring and Perry. Everyone that goes there is ignorant and blind. You are much smarter.

We have a financial report every year. I have seen FIRST HAND what is done with the money. They don't need to advertise to skeptics like yourself how they help the community. What good would it do? Any answer to any of your questions wouldn't change your hate.

I know this. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I was skeptical about the NS as well. Why? Because I believed the lies spewed mostly by other "Christians". It's sad really. You, me, Perry and everyone will all have to answer to GOD for how we lived our lives for him. I'll take his judgement over anyone else's. I understand non believers bashing the church, but when I see others who claim to know Christ spewing hatred towards a group of believers, all I can think of is the Pharisees. It's almost identical. If you have never been to a service, you really have NO basis for what you are saying. If you have and it's not for you, then fine. I know you won't hear New Spring members bashing other churches. In fact, we partner with several churches, large and small, in an effort to bring as many to Christ as we can.

I have 3 children, and they were all saved at New Spring. I take offense to anyone who belittles their salvation because you don't like the Pastor. Jesus saves people, not the pastor. Thousands of people have accepted Christ due to New Spring and their members. Remember, I once believed the lies as well. I repented for that after actually seeing for myself. What if you found out you were completely wrong about your attitude? Even if I felt that way, I sure wouldn't say anything publicly.
 
Questions or concerns with a church/pastor involved with our football team doesn't equal hate towards NS, PN, or the "owners" they are valid concerns. Stop getting so defensive. It's great you guys enjoy it. I have questions that will never be answered even if I went there. There is NO transparency, PN will not do my funeral, kids wedding etc. I probably would never have the opportunity to meet him. Those are the reasons I will not give your church a chance. If you like that and it works for you great but people that question do not hate.
 
Originally posted by Tigris Maximus:
We get it. You hate NewSpring and Perry. Everyone that goes there is ignorant and blind. You are much smarter.

We have a financial report every year. I have seen FIRST HAND what is done with the money. They don't need to advertise to skeptics like yourself how they help the community. What good would it do? Any answer to any of your questions wouldn't change your hate.

I know this. I have been a Christian for 31 years and I was skeptical about the NS as well. Why? Because I believed the lies spewed mostly by other "Christians". It's sad really. You, me, Perry and everyone will all have to answer to GOD for how we lived our lives for him. I'll take his judgement over anyone else's. I understand non believers bashing the church, but when I see others who claim to know Christ spewing hatred towards a group of believers, all I can think of is the Pharisees. It's almost identical. If you have never been to a service, you really have NO basis for what you are saying. If you have and it's not for you, then fine. I know you won't hear New Spring members bashing other churches. In fact, we partner with several churches, large and small, in an effort to bring as many to Christ as we can.

I have 3 children, and they were all saved at New Spring. I take offense to anyone who belittles their salvation because you don't like the Pastor. Jesus saves people, not the pastor. Thousands of people have accepted Christ due to New Spring and their members. Remember, I once believed the lies as well. I repented for that after actually seeing for myself. What if you found out you were completely wrong about your attitude? Even if I felt that way, I sure wouldn't say anything publicly.
Jesus sent the disciples out to found his Church. He said "Go and be one amongst the people. Comfort the sick, console the hurt and advise the sinner. Who's sins you forgive they are forgiven, whos sins you retain they are retained."

The role of the "leader" (Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, grand pooba...call them what you will) is to lead the people. Perry disassociats from his people.

Fianlly, you have NS members IN THIS THREAD bashing other churches. Saying how other churches kick out people who get divorces and NS welcomes them without ever citing a single example, yet you gloss over specific examples of NS acts by "no one is perfect". The you hurl proclamations about "no NS member will ever bash another church" Right after its done in this thread.

Man this is gettign scarier by the second, it is like all NS members are coached in their replies...almost like Perry engages dialogue from the pulpit about how to respond to his detractors....Oh wait...

I dont hate New Spring, I dont Hate Perry.
I do not trust Perry and I abjectly distrust several members of New Spring based on my first hand experiences.
 
That was easy. You aren't interested in seeing for yourself, but you'll gladly regurgitate the same things about it over and over on a sports message board. All I can say is that we are both strong on our convictions. The only difference is mine is based on actual experience. Watch online if you like. Easter service was great!
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
with all due respect the people regurgitating the same lines over and over are the new spring owners that's what's scary
 
Tigris Maximus, you claim you've seen the finacial report. Great! Can you provide a link to it? If not, how much of the revenue is being spent on community outreach? How much is Noble compensated?

I don't need to go to every church in the state to see if they are acting responsibly with their funds, I can look it up online. You can't with NS. Why is that? And please save the "you hate our church" rhetoric. Let's put emotion aside and talk REAL numbers about NS. I'm game if you are!
 
Originally posted by Tigris Maximus:
That was easy. You aren't interested in seeing for yourself, but you'll gladly regurgitate the same things about it over and over on a sports message board. All I can say is that we are both strong on our convictions. The only difference is mine is based on actual experience. Watch online if you like. Easter service was great!
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Sir,
You didnt read my earlier posts.
I attended NS for apprx 1 year.

My convictions are based on MY EXPERIENCES.
 
I'm not an owner but I go. Hey, Newspring may not be for everyone, but I like it and get what I need spiritually out of going. For the people who think Perry makes it all about him, haven't been. God is the rock star at that church.
 
I understand what you are saying about the "hero worship" culture. However, most of the time it's not the leaders who create this, but it's immature followers who do. This has always been a problem. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians to address "hero worship" in that congregation and he was one of the heroes the people there were worshipping. In church history we have "camps" and theological positions that are stated around the names of "Christian heroes" : Calvinist, Lutheran, Wesleyan, Arminian, Zwingliest. This is not a Newspring problem it is a people problem that has been a thorn in the side of the Body of Christ since the first century church. It is also a mark of spiritual immaturity. Some leaders do promote it, most don't. Also, just because someone says they love their pastor and want to honor the leaders God has given to them to add value to their lives, there is nothing wrong with that. When we value leadership, we are valuing what God values. However, it can go overboard. Just my 2 cents.
This is a good point. I had not thought about it from this perspective. The problem I have with New Spring is their theology which turns God into a Holy Santa Claus, rewarding the worthy.
 
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