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Fun hypothetical - how much to retire today?

39. Our retirement target is $15M.

Keep in mind that the recommended drawdown rate is 4%. That's $40K per year for each million invested. We are planning around a 3% drawdown figure to be more conservative and set our two boys up better.

Replying to my own post because I just caught this relevant article from Morningstar. Note the recommended withdrawal rates (<4%). So for those posting numbers, I would make sure you are comfortable living on a 3.5% revenue stream - before taxes - from your portfolio. That's $35K for each million, or $175K from a $5M portfolio.

Because equity valuations have declined and cash and bond yields have increased, the forward-looking prospects for portfolios—and in turn the amounts that new retirees can safely withdraw from those portfolios over a 30-year horizon—have enjoyed a nice lift since we explored the topic last year. Whereas last year’s research suggested that a 3.3% withdrawal rate was a safe starting point for new retirees with balanced portfolios over a 30-year horizon, this year’s research points to 3.8% as a safe starting withdrawal percentage, with annual inflation adjustments to those withdrawals thereafter.
 
That was me. I ended up taking a position with an RIA as an analyst/PM running their portfolios and trying to build that side for them.

Our standard of living is certainly higher than average. I don’t think it’s crazy though. We don’t have a ton of debt. We some real estate beyond our primary residence. Selling in Raleigh and moving to the triad was big. Massive discrepancy in home prices, and that gave us the freedom to look at some secondary property. We have a couple kids in private daycare. Part time nanny. Cars are paid for, but we’re about to have to get a new one. Monthly outflows are usually between $14-16K. This year was more on average probably with a master/master bath gut job remodel. We travel a good bit. But, all in all nothing crazy.

The primary reason I throw out $10MM is because I think more so than for the last few generations, invested assets are going to have to be treated increasingly different in retirement as we move forward. Market cycles are getting compressed. Volatility is trending higher. Correlations are rising. Costs are rising and I think slightly higher than average inflation is probably a fixture in most market regimes going forward. I think you are going to have to maintain higher levels of cash/short term debt within portfolios to avoid getting squeezed during more frequent drawdowns, and then be more strategically aggressive with the rest of a portfolio. I’m also pretty young, so my money would have to last a while. That, and my wife and I have stated we want to leave each child with a decent chunk and we know that where we want to retire is relatively expensive. Thus, $10-12MM is the goal we’ve set for ourselves where we feel like we can comfortably do what we want without having to excessively worry.

Really well put, and very close to my situation; hence, why I had listed 10mil
 
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Anyone that says over $1mm needs to reconsider their strategy.

Buy a few rental homes and rent them out. Youll make more and save more on taxes as well.

A $100K home rents for a minimum of $1000/month. Including taxes, youll make $10k/year. With a cost segregation, it beats the stock market. With annual appreciation, your rich ass will be even more rich.
 
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Anyone that says over $1mm needs to reconsider their strategy.

Buy a few rental homes and rent them out. Youll make more and save more on taxes as well.

A $100K home rents for a minimum of $1000/month. Including taxes, youll make $10k/year. With a cost segregation, it beats the stock market. With annual appreciation, your rich ass will be even more rich.
At some point, let’s talk offline. My wife will be the sole survivor after my MIL passes (we’re gonna have to move her up here to a facility near us. Sadly, she’s been fading fast since we moved in 2020).

I’ve tried, completely unsuccessfully, to convince wife that we should look to rent the Pasadena house and keep the San Clemente (not "on" the beach) house. She’s on board with San Clemente, but hates the idea of being a landlord. To say the house needs updated is being kind. It's a nice house, but the 1980's called and they want their decor back.

First world problems, I know...was reminded last night about how quickly things can change. About 9:20 pm last night, it was "Wow, what was that noise!". This is maybe 400 yards from our house; drove by it at 6:30 on the way into Sacto. Those redwoods are big. Posted speed limit is 40 mph; wouldn't surprise me if they were near double that. The many stop signs annoy people who try to cut-through on the Parkway and they sometimes ignore them.
https://www.kcra.com/article/granite-bay-chp-auburn-car-crash-tree-4-dead/42249837
 
I always find these threads to be fascinating. The large difference in answers between people around the same age.

Some people are saying they need to have 60-70k+ a year in retirement income and I'm sitting here thinking that I'd be able to make it on 12-15k/year net assuming no major health issues.
 
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At some point, let’s talk offline. My wife will be the sole survivor after my MIL passes (we’re gonna have to move her up here to a facility near us. Sadly, she’s been fading fast since we moved in 2020).

I’ve tried, completely unsuccessfully, to convince wife that we should look to rent the Pasadena house and keep the San Clemente (not "on" the beach) house. She’s on board with San Clemente, but hates the idea of being a landlord. To say the house needs updated is being kind. It's a nice house, but the 1980's called and they want their decor back.

First world problems, I know...was reminded last night about how quickly things can change. About 9:20 pm last night, it was "Wow, what was that noise!". This is maybe 400 yards from our house; drove by it at 6:30 on the way into Sacto. Those redwoods are big. Posted speed limit is 40 mph; wouldn't surprise me if they were near double that. The many stop signs annoy people who try to cut-through on the Parkway and they sometimes ignore them.
https://www.kcra.com/article/granite-bay-chp-auburn-car-crash-tree-4-dead/42249837
Sorry to hear! My grandpa is in a similar situation.

For the houses- I think I have one contact that buys in that area actually. Personal opinion would be to update it yourself (yourself= finding a contractor and rehabbing it..happy to help with the contract on that end) or selling to a flipper and letting them do the work.


You’ll add at least 25% to the value of the home after all cost considerations. Minimum.


Honestly not familiar with tenant rights in California. Being a landlord isnt bad tbh. As long as you’re willing to start the eviction process 5 days after a missed payment and have a home thats in good shape, the hardest thing is finding a hot water heater and someone to install it. Oh, and walking to your mailbox and getting your money.
 
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Sorry to hear! My grandpa is in a similar situation.

For the houses- I think I have one contact that buys in that area actually. Personal opinion would be to update it yourself (yourself= finding a contractor and rehabbing it..happy to help with the contract on that end) or selling to a flipper and letting them do the work.


You’ll add at least 25% to the value of the home after all cost considerations. Minimum.


Honestly not familiar with tenant rights in California. Being a landlord isnt bad tbh. As long as you’re willing to start the eviction process 5 days after a missed payment and have a home thats in good shape, the hardest thing is finding a hot water heater and someone to install it. Oh, and walking to your mailbox and getting your money.
What locales are you finding that meet 1-2% rule still? I’ve done some in Memphis this way, but only a couple. I live in Nashville, and it’s basically impossible to find anything that cash flows
 
Give me that Cris Ard portfolio and I’m gone tomorrow
 
So, you show up at the courthouse steps and literally bid on homes (google to see how it’s done…it’s exactly what you’re envision haha). 20% profits. 20%!!!!!! If you have the cash to get the truly great properties, there is no other investment vehicle I would use.


Purchasers of property at tax sale do not automatically "own" the property, and property owners do not immediately get evicted. Purchasers must by law allow the owner one year after the date of sale to redeem the property. In addition to the property owner, anyone with legal interest in the property, such as a mortgage company or anyone who holds a lien on the property, may also redeem the property. To redeem a property, the owner or interested party must pay the purchaser the amount the purchaser paid at tax sale, plus 20 percent of that amount. In addition to this amount, the purchaser may also add to the redemption price the dollar amount of any subsequent property taxes the purchaser paid on the property after the tax sale took place.

One year from the date of the tax sale the purchaser may foreclose on the right of redemption and forever bar anyone from redeeming the property from that time on. The purchaser must issue written notice of this action. At that point, the purchaser may take steps to become the deeded owner of the property. The purchaser will automatically take title to the property four years after the date the tax deed was recorded if the property is not redeemed, even if the purchaser does not formally foreclose on the right of redemption. This process is also known as the “ripening” of the tax deed.

If it’s anything like the NJ system, it’s not at all as glamorous as it sounds. NJ is reverse auction down from 18%, but in the past 5-10 years major private equity firms started showing up to the actions and nearly every property now goes down to 0%, and then the premium gets layered on top. I’ve been to auctions where a $350K property certificate sold for 0% + $100,000 premium. So you tie up $100K for 2 years, begin your tax foreclosure, and then on the eve of Sherrif’s sale you get redeemed out for $20K plus a few bucks in interest, costs, and fees, and then have to wait until the township refunds your premium deposit. No thanks. Much more efficient uses of private capital (though to be fair it used to be an amazing money maker back in the day).
 
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It's all pretty simple, just plug in the numbers here:


You'll have to be able to accurately predict future inflation, future ROI on your investments, how much long term care will cost, how long you'll live. Just some simple stuff that you really have no control over. It's fun to run numbers and see, but years like 2022 make you feel like you'll have to work forever.
Haha 2022 makes me feel like the world will be toast before I reach 70 (10 yrs)
 
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Anyone that says over $1mm needs to reconsider their strategy.

Buy a few rental homes and rent them out. Youll make more and save more on taxes as well.

A $100K home rents for a minimum of $1000/month. Including taxes, youll make $10k/year. With a cost segregation, it beats the stock market. With annual appreciation, your rich ass will be even more rich.
Few key steps and considerations missing here. And, where the hell am I going to find a $100,000 house? 1988?
 
State your age - and how much it'd take for you to retire on the spot today? No part time income or anything like that factored in. Assume your spouse or significant other is retiring also. What would it take for you to retire cold turkey today and live comfortably until life expectancy?
I’m 36 and it would take 35 million for me to retire today from a monetary stand point. But I wouldn’t even think of retiring until at least 65. And even then I hope to have something keeping me busy.
 
Few key steps and considerations missing here. And, where the hell am I going to find a $100,000 house? 1988?
Go to zillow and search. Its better to buy thru a wholesaler, but you want a 20% discount from market value.




Conduct a 4 point inspection. Contact local property management company and get an idea for what it will rent for.

????

Profit
 
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@Superica28 found a $35k house.

To his credit, the people I've known who own a bunch of rentals swear that the worst houses in the worst neighborhoods provide the best income.
They really do! My business partner just bought a $120K home and will make $500/month.

The key is that in 5 years, his home will appreciate by maybe 10%.

Mine wont appreciate a penny.

I also paid $3k for the down payment while he paid $28K.

The problem with mine is that itll be harder to sell and harder to find a new tenant the time comes. And that a new roof wipes out profits for a long, long time. Which is exactly why you sell it the moment you realize the roof has 5 years left.

Take a look at that pic I posted a page ago. 2 streets up from the real hood. That’s exactly where you wanna be.
 
Few key steps and considerations missing here. And, where the hell am I going to find a $100,000 house? 1988?

Low income housing, though that target is hard to hit now. I either own or have now sold probably a dozen+ houses that we bought under $100k. But this is section 8, class C or below territory. It took me a bit, but I’ve figured out where to draw the line on when things get too bad.

I see @Superica28 linked houses in Latta and Denmark. I’m not buying in those places. I buy in rougher, but “path of progress” hoods in N. Charleston. I’m not sure progress is ever coming to Latta and Denmark.

We do really well on our portfolio. The hardest part is finding the deals. There are a lot, A LOT, of people looking for them.
 
Low income housing, though that target is hard to hit now. I either own or have now sold probably a dozen+ houses that we bought under $100k. But this is section 8, class C or below territory. It took me a bit, but I’ve figured out where to draw the line on when things get too bad.

I see @Superica28 linked houses in Latta and Denmark. I’m not buying in those places. I buy in rougher, but “path of progress” hoods in N. Charleston. I’m not sure progress is ever coming to Latta and Denmark.

We do really well on our portfolio. The hardest part is finding the deals. There are a lot, A LOT, of people looking for them.
The thing about buying in N Charleston is that all deals are p much gone unless you’re gonna rehab it then rent. You cant buy anything rent ready at 70%ARV in N Charleston (or can you)?
 
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Low income housing, though that target is hard to hit now. I either own or have now sold probably a dozen+ houses that we bought under $100k. But this is section 8, class C or below territory. It took me a bit, but I’ve figured out where to draw the line on when things get too bad.

I see @Superica28 linked houses in Latta and Denmark. I’m not buying in those places. I buy in rougher, but “path of progress” hoods in N. Charleston. I’m not sure progress is ever coming to Latta and Denmark.

We do really well on our portfolio. The hardest part is finding the deals. There are a lot, A LOT, of people looking for them.
Hard to find indeed. I’ve done around 20 flips and hold 15 doors and only 1 of those was purchased on market. And that was only because of incompetence by the listing agent

She listed the house for 90k on a Sunday evening. I happened to be browsing Zillow and saw it and got my realtor to send a full price sight unseen offer but with DD so I could walk it later that week. Idk why they accepted the offer but they did. Property was in good shape just needed cosmetics. Put 15k in it and got it rented, appraised for 145k a couple months later.
 
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Article relevant to one of my earlier posts about the 4% drawdown rule. I saw a lot of $2M figures ITT. I’m not sure if people realize that’s only $76K before taxes at the recommended drawdown rate of 3.8% in this article.

 
Article relevant to one of my earlier posts about the 4% drawdown rule. I saw a lot of $2M figures ITT. I’m not sure if people realize that’s only $76K before taxes at the recommended drawdown rate of 3.8% in this article.

C&P....we'd love to read it.
 
C&P....we'd love to read it.
Retirees walloped by high inflation and volatile stock and bond markets are getting some good news: The 4% spending rule—or something close to it—is back.

The traditional advice for retirees who need to make their money last for 30 years is to spend no more than 4% of their savings in the first year of retirement, and in subsequent years raise those withdrawals to keep pace with inflation.

A year after researchers at Morningstar Inc. recommended a spending cut, the move back to something close to a 4% spending rate makes retirement more feasible for those considering it.
“It’s counterintuitive, but when valuations are high, it is the worst time to retire,” said Morningstar personal finance director Christine Benz, a co-author of research released last year that recommended that people taking a first withdrawal in 2022 keep it to 3.3% due to expectations for lower future investment returns.

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In a report released Monday, Ms. Benz and her co-authors say current market conditions now allow for a 3.8% spending rate for new retirees with a 30-year horizon. The reason: Today’s lower stock and bond valuations support expectations for higher future investment returns than was the case last year.
The recommended withdrawal rate for new retirees varies from one year to the next, rising and falling with thousands of simulations of future market conditions.
Using Morningstar’s updated 3.8% spending recommendation, someone who retires today with a $1 million portfolio with 50% in stocks and 50% in bonds would spend no more than $38,000 in 2023.
Assuming inflation rises 5% next year, the investor would increase annual income by that same percentage to $39,900 in 2024, regardless of the market’s performance. (For many new retirees, the amount in year one may be similar to what they would have taken as a withdrawal had they retired a year ago and used the lower spending rate on a higher account balance.)
“If you are thinking about retiring, you can use 3.8% as a test of the viability of the withdrawal you are considering,” said Ms. Benz, adding that retirees who are willing to cut their spending when the markets fall can start slightly above 3.8%.
For example, the report said new retirees willing to forego inflation adjustments in any year following portfolio losses can withdraw 4.4% to start and still have a 90% chance of not running out of money over 30 years.
Those already retired should stick with the recommended withdrawal amount they started with, rather than switch to 3.8%.

Someone who retired a year ago with $1.2 million and used the 3.3% withdrawal rate Morningstar recommended at the time would have spent $39,600 this year. Assuming inflation rises 7% for the full year, the method allows for raising that spending to $42,372 in 2023.
But Ms. Benz said people who retired last year and want a high degree of certainty their money will last should consider taking a smaller inflation raise or foregoing an increase altogether if they can afford to.
Ms. Benz said last year’s 3.3% recommendation may have been too high, due to the convergence of simultaneous declines in stocks and bonds and high inflation, a combination that is especially challenging for new retirees.
When inflation is high, withdrawals made under the 4% rule’s method grow significantly. And when bear markets occur, retirees have to take money out of a portfolio that is shrinking.
Both situations mean the portfolio has to earn a higher return to prevent depletion and can be especially dangerous early in retirement because most retirees need their savings to last decades.

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Four percent is the historic starting spending rate that would have protected retirees from running out of money in every 30-year period since 1926, even when economic conditions were at their worst, according to retired financial planner Bill Bengen, who devised the 4% rule in 1994.
Mr. Bengen’s research indicates that the worst 30-year period in which to retire started on Oct. 1, 1968, due to the relatively anemic investment returns and high inflation that prevailed for much of the 1970s.
A 3.8% withdrawal rate is most reliable for portfolios with 30% to 60% in stocks and the rest in bonds, according to Morningstar.
If you invest less than 30% in stocks, your returns may be insufficient to support a 3.8% inflation-adjusted withdrawal for 30 years. With more than 60% in stocks, there is greater risk portfolios may lose so much during a bear market that they won’t be able to recover.
 
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