Great news out of South Korea

[1Clemzunfan]

Well a couple things that aren’t true here

people are not wearing masks in Sweden or social distancing like you stated. Elementary and middle schools didn’t close, daycares are open.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-no-lockdown-anders-tegnell-not-convinced-right-call-2020-5?amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-pandemic-for-many-in-sweden-life-goes-on-as-usual/2020/04/06/7402f68e-75bb-11ea-ad9b-254ec99993bc_story.html?outputType=amp

@Tiger1425 is correct about the misunderstanding of Sweden. People want to act like they are doing nothing, when in fact they are doing a great deal. You are correct that elementary and middle schools are open, but high schools and colleges are forced closed. Also, @Tiger1425 is correct about the social distancing. Swedes have a much higher confidence level in their government and though many measures are not mandated, most Swedes are taking the government's recommendations voluntarily. They have a higher work at home population than in the U.S. and are increasing that. Restaurants and bars can stay open, but social distancing is enforced by the government by mandating tables be further apart and if you are in a bar and customers are within reach of each other, they can shut down the bar. Also, large group gatherings of greater than 50 people are banned. Though not due to a government mandate to close, many businesses are closed in Sweden because of the social distancing that Swedes are practicing voluntarily. All of their resorts are closed. The government has instituted massive measures to support businesses who close and supplement pay of those laid off so as not to force businesses to stay open. Estimates are that foot traffic in Stockholm, their largest city, is down 75%.

Again, the government has not mandated the shutdown to the same degree as many countries, but the reality on the ground is very similar to what you will find in many U.S. states today. Their government asked for voluntary measures and most Swedes have complied without mandates. Also, the people in Sweden are not as densely packed as in much of the U.S. with more residents living in single family homes and not apartments. Lastly, Sweden has a healthier population than the U.S.

But with all of the above, Sweden's death rate is almost 600% higher per capita than their neighboring countries of Norway and Finland, who have similar cultures and populations but whose governements instituted more extensive lock downs.

 

[IcelandTiger]

@Tiger1425 is correct about the misunderstanding of Sweden. People want to act like they are doing nothing, when in fact they are doing a great deal. You are correct that elementary and middle schools are open, but high schools and colleges are forced closed. Also, @Tiger1425 is correct about the social distancing. Swedes have a much higher confidence level in their government and though many measures are not mandated, most Swedes are taking the government's recommendations voluntarily. They have a higher work at home population than in the U.S. and are increasing that. Restaurants and bars can stay open, but social distancing is enforced by the government by mandating tables be further apart and if you are in a bar and customers are within reach of each other, they can shut down the bar. Also, large group gatherings of greater than 50 people are banned. Though not due to a government mandate to close, many businesses are closed in Sweden because of the social distancing that Swedes are practicing voluntarily. All of their resorts are closed. The government has instituted massive measures to support businesses who close and supplement pay of those laid off so as not to force businesses to stay open. Estimates are that foot traffic in Stockholm, their largest city, is down 75%.

Again, the government has not mandated the shutdown to the same degree as many countries, but the reality on the ground is very similar to what you will find in many U.S. states today. Their government asked for voluntary measures and most Swedes have complied without mandates. Also, the people in Sweden are not as densely packed as in much of the U.S. with more residents living in single family homes and not apartments. Lastly, Sweden has a healthier population than the U.S.

But with all of the above, Sweden's death rate is almost 600% higher per capita than their neighboring countries of Norway and Finland, who have similar cultures and populations but whose governements instituted more extensive lock downs.

I’m correct in saying Sweden didn’t lock down. I know their death rate is higher

they didn’t force restaurants, bars, daycares, nightclubs, barber shops, retail, movie theatres, churches, etc to close. They didn’t force resorts to close, the resorts closed on their own. Just like the ski resorts in the USA did

You have a link for that foot traffic claim?

 

[1Clemzunfan]

I’m correct in saying Sweden didn’t lock down. I know their death rate is higher

they didn’t force restaurants, bars, daycares, nightclubs, barber shops, retail, etc to close. They didn’t force resorts to close, the resorts closed on their own. Just like the ski resorts in the USA did

You have a link for that foot traffic claim?

No one claimed Sweden forced a lock down. Where did anyone say that? Sweden has forced fewer measures, but recommended many of the same measures as others but did, relying on their citizens to do the right thing. The point was that people seem to think Sweden is just carrying on with life as usual which is blatantly false.

You said that people in Sweden are not social distancing. That is the false statement. They are doing it in great numbers and instituting many of the same practices others are, though not forced to by the government. The point was that though the government didn't force a lock down to the same extent of others, it doesn't mean that Swedes are not doing a lot to mitigate the spread voluntarily. They have a much more compliant population to their government's recommendations, a greater work from home economy, less population density with more single family homes, and most citizens are social distancing.

Here is a good article from last week. This has your foot traffic number. Also, note that travel over Easter weekend in Sweden was estimated to be down 90%. Again, a good indicator that people are taking measures on their own. Swedes are not carrying on with life as usual like some seem to think.

 

[Cavitybacks]

We need to open up as much as possible, but the concern is that too many people think this is behind us and if enough people don't continue to do the common sense things to contain this voluntarily, this could quickly take off and be worse than what we saw a month ago.

I think the positive takeaway is that hospitals in SC are nowhere remotely close to being overrun. So even if we have a little spike of resurgence, we should be totally fine.

Also, we have protocols in place now so that we can quickly dial everything back if our hospitals begin to become overrun with cases.

 

[IcelandTiger]

No one claimed Sweden forced a lock down. Where did anyone say that? Sweden has forced fewer measures, but recommended many of the same measures as others but did, relying on their citizens to do the right thing. The point was that people seem to think Sweden is just carrying on with life as usual which is blatantly false.

You said that people in Sweden are not social distancing. That is the false statement. They are doing it in great numbers and instituting many of the same practices others are, though not forced to by the government. The point was that though the government didn't force a lock down to the same extent of others, it doesn't mean that Swedes are not doing a lot to mitigate the spread voluntarily. They have a much more compliant population to their government's recommendations, a greater work from home economy, less population density with more single family homes, and most citizens are social distancing.

Here is a good article from last week. This has your foot traffic number. Also, note that travel over Easter weekend in Sweden was estimated to be down 90%. Again, a good indicator that people are taking measures on their own. Swedes are not carrying on with life as usual like some seem to think.

Um, yeah, someone did - from earlier in the thread


deshaunwatson4 said: ↑
Every advanced country in the world shut down. You think they did it cuz of the American election? How naive


That is blatantly false



Did I say they were carrying on life as usual?

Some Swedes are distancing and some aren't. Nightclubs are allowed to stay open as long as people are arms length apart. If is a false statement to say they are all social distancing. Most in Sweden are not wearing masks and they are not being locked up or fined for it like other countries in Europe


Sweden didn't recommend bars, restaurants, barber shops, churches to close and they didn't force them to close either. If they recommended masks, people arent following the recommendation

https://www.businessinsider.com/pho...denmark-are-beginning-to-ease-restrictions-11


Sweden's Work from home numbers are similar to the USA by the way and on the average to low end in Europe

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/europeans-work-home-careers/

https://qz.com/work/1392302/more-than-5-of-americans-now-work-from-home-new-statistics-show/

 

[whitesixmile]

WOW, that's a good one!! Did you think that one up all by yourself???

Just being comical about letting him know that he is north not South Korea without being a dick like so many on here try to be sometimes.

 

[CU Alumnus]

sweden is still a question mark in terms of how effective their strategy was. I saw the other day that they have an extremely high mortality rate. South Korea had testing ready to go back in January so they could start tracing in early February. Our lack of sufficient testing is what forces the shutdown.

I don't know that we can judge a particular country's methods vs others, any more than we can judge a particular state's methods vs others - until we see final results. And I honestly don't expect to know the final tally of this thing for years. Too many questions right now. But if Sweden is healthier they can probably weather the storm with fewer deaths - on a percentage basis - than we can.

Point is I don't know if "herd immunity" would work in the US even if it DID work in Sweden.

I think Sweden has a reasonably healthy population vs other countries so their risk is lower than ours.

 

[IcelandTiger]

I don't know that we can judge a particular country's methods vs others, any more than we can judge a particular state's methods vs others - until we see final results. And I honestly don't expect to know the final tally of this thing for years. Too many questions right now. But if Sweden is healthier they can probably weather the storm with fewer deaths - on a percentage basis - than we can.

Point is I don't know if "herd immunity" would work in the US even if it DID work in Sweden.

I think Sweden has a reasonably healthy population vs other countries so their risk is lower than ours.

Great points

The USA is one of the most unhealthy countries in the world. A significant portion of the population is high risk

 

[CU Alumnus]

Something I have found amusing is several stores have a sign posting how many people can be there. But I've only seen two actually enforce it - The Home Depot in Anderson, SC, and the Seneca, SC/Wells Hwy Family Dollar.

 

[Tiger1425]

Well a couple things that aren’t true here

people are not wearing masks in Sweden or social distancing like you stated. Elementary and middle schools didn’t close, daycares are open.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-no-lockdown-anders-tegnell-not-convinced-right-call-2020-5?amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-pandemic-for-many-in-sweden-life-goes-on-as-usual/2020/04/06/7402f68e-75bb-11ea-ad9b-254ec99993bc_story.html?outputType=amp

I said South Korea. I said zippo about the swedes wearing masks. I also said that these people did what they were told. The Swedes weren't required to wear masks.

 

[CU Alumnus]

Great points

The USA is one of the most unhealthy countries in the world. A significant portion of the population is high risk

I hope this will get the US on the trend of getting healthier, though I doubt it. It seemed there was a trend a few years ago when programs like "Crossfit" and others came out, but that may have been overestimated.

I've chronicled my own adventures in weight loss (somewhat) in my "Couch to 5K" thread on here. It really is amazing how much better you feel once you get some excess weight off. I'm down approximately 20 lbs - need to lose another 30 at least.

 

[IcelandTiger]

I hope this will get the US on the trend of getting healthier, though I doubt it. It seemed there was a trend a few years ago when programs like "Crossfit" and others came out, but that may have been overestimated.

I've chronicled my own adventures in weight loss (somewhat) in my "Couch to 5K" thread on here. It really is amazing how much better you feel once you get some excess weight off. I'm down approximately 20 lbs - need to lose another 30 at least.

Good for you, keep it going

I did the same last year. I’ve never been overweight, but I feel much better now. Lost about 10lb running distance. I put 10 lb back on since I’ve been at home for 2 months. I’m running 2-3 miles a day right now at 6-6:30 pace and still put on weight.

Sadly, I don’t see the obesity trend slowing down

 

[tigerjimp]

@Tiger1425 is correct about the misunderstanding of Sweden. People want to act like they are doing nothing, when in fact they are doing a great deal. You are correct that elementary and middle schools are open, but high schools and colleges are forced closed. Also, @Tiger1425 is correct about the social distancing. Swedes have a much higher confidence level in their government and though many measures are not mandated, most Swedes are taking the government's recommendations voluntarily. They have a higher work at home population than in the U.S. and are increasing that. Restaurants and bars can stay open, but social distancing is enforced by the government by mandating tables be further apart and if you are in a bar and customers are within reach of each other, they can shut down the bar. Also, large group gatherings of greater than 50 people are banned. Though not due to a government mandate to close, many businesses are closed in Sweden because of the social distancing that Swedes are practicing voluntarily. All of their resorts are closed. The government has instituted massive measures to support businesses who close and supplement pay of those laid off so as not to force businesses to stay open. Estimates are that foot traffic in Stockholm, their largest city, is down 75%.

Again, the government has not mandated the shutdown to the same degree as many countries, but the reality on the ground is very similar to what you will find in many U.S. states today. Their government asked for voluntary measures and most Swedes have complied without mandates. Also, the people in Sweden are not as densely packed as in much of the U.S. with more residents living in single family homes and not apartments. Lastly, Sweden has a healthier population than the U.S.

But with all of the above, Sweden's death rate is almost 600% higher per capita than their neighboring countries of Norway and Finland, who have similar cultures and populations but whose governements instituted more extensive lock downs.

What will be interesting to see is if the differences flip during a second wave, if that happens. It could end up being the case that taking the medicine up front and having more people with immunity helps greatly lessen any 2nd wave, which in the case of the 1918 pandemic, was more severe than the first.

It could also turn out that more extreme measures weren't/aren't needed to begin with, and they saved a much worse hit on their economy.

Time will tell.

 

[TopGun01]

I hope this will get the US on the trend of getting healthier, though I doubt it. It seemed there was a trend a few years ago when programs like "Crossfit" and others came out, but that may have been overestimated.

I've chronicled my own adventures in weight loss (somewhat) in my "Couch to 5K" thread on here. It really is amazing how much better you feel once you get some excess weight off. I'm down approximately 20 lbs - need to lose another 30 at least.

Good for you that you've lost the weight! But I'd wager that overall the public has gained weight based on the long lines at fast food joints and overeating junk foods when boredom sets in at home. It's damn difficult to watch hours of TV per day while snacking out and then sleeping longer hours than your body's used to.

 

[CU Alumnus]

Good for you that you've lost the weight! But I'd wager that overall the public has gained weight based on the long lines at fast food joints and overeating junk foods when boredom sets in at home. It's damn difficult to watch hours of TV per day while snacking out and then sleeping longer hours than your body's used to.

I'd wager that as well, and it concerns the hell out of me.

Sitting around all day, inactive, same four walls, can't/won't go out, being fed almost nothing but doom-and-gloom news.......I'm surprised that suicide and murder rates aren't up. I think the long-term toll will be worse on us than the virus could have been.

I'm not saying we should have just blown this thing off, but I wonder if we went too far with some measures. It's taken a toll on my 10 year old - but he's had a helluva bad two months (no school, no cub scouts, can't really see his friends including on his birthday, damn tornado rips through our neighborhood, internet is still screwed up and he still has to do his distance learning).....

This CANNOT be good news for our mental health as a nation.

 

[StSimonsIslandTiger]

The Swedes and South Koreans have something we don't have. Absolute belief in the government. These people do what they are told. Notice everybody wearing a mask in the picture for that article. Besides that, Sweden did not let everything just go. Schools were closed. Large public gatherings and travel were curtailed dramatically. Also, Sweden has a very sophisticated health care system. We don't. With all that, Sweden has so far suffered a higher death rate per million than the U.S. And the U.S. is doing about as poorly as anybody. Add to that that we are still in the early stages of this disease. Nobody really knows if Sweden's approach will work or not. They are starting to see a rapid spread of the disease in some areas.

Actually, they kept most kids in school. Social distancing in Sweden is hit and miss.

 

[jmh9713]

This is wrong. It has happened in multiple countries. It happened in New York.

But I won't change your mind. It was predicted weeks ago that if the shut down worked, people who think like you would pop up.

I think it's stupid to think the infections/death rate would have been the same if the shut down didn't happen.

But, believe whatever you want. I take solice in the fact the government and the majority in power don't believe the same.

You are a clown if you think the shutdown worked to that extent. Its likely somewhere in the middle at most leaning towards little to no drastic change currently. Also, the shutdown does not save lives, it simply shifts the time frame for which deaths will occur. The number under the line will always remain the same.

The death count under the line was always going to be the same. The big problem with that is that people with heart conditions, cancer, and other illnesses are now not being treated. So you effectively shift the death count to those people who are now terrified to get treatment OR are having valuable tests not completed in a timely manner. With every decision you have to pay a cost. In this case we are passing the burden to those people. That is the most terrifying thing.

This was never about saving people. That was impossible from the get go. Not sure people quite understand what they are a proponent for.

 

[hopefultiger13]

We didn't social distance to prevent herd immunity, we did it to prevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed, or did you all forget that part?

Yes, yes they did. We Trump says something, THAT'S what's true right now. Forget what anyone said before (including Trump). As is stated above, this was never about the total number of cases or how many people were eventually going to be infected. The models show about the same, no matter what you do. Everyone has see the models with the steep curve and the shallow curve and the dotted line with health care capacity on it. You have to keep the curve below the dotted line. That's why most folks (including myself) are for reopening the economy in stages... to make sure that curve stays below the dotted line. And remember that what you do NOW takes about 10 days to 2 weeks to see a change.

So on day one of reopening you could have 4000 ventilators and 10,000 ICU beds in a state. And your virus count is maybe something like 1000 beds being used and 500 ventilators being used. You are "just fine" right? But remember what geometric progression does. With no measures being taken those values can double (or more) every day. So on day 2 you get 2000 beds and 1000 ventilators, day 3 you get 4000 beds and 2000 ventilators, day 4 is 8000 beds and 4000 venitlators. And you are blown away by day five. Point being, that if you fark it up... you can go from just fine, to blown away in a week or so and there's nothing you can do in time to prevent a bunch of folks dying.

 

[IcelandTiger]

Yes, yes they did. We Trump says something, THAT'S what's true right now. Forget what anyone said before (including Trump). As is stated above, this was never about the total number of cases or how many people were eventually going to be infected. The models show about the same, no matter what you do. Everyone has see the models with the steep curve and the shallow curve and the dotted line with health care capacity on it. You have to keep the curve below the dotted line. That's why most folks (including myself) are for reopening the economy in stages... to make sure that curve stays below the dotted line. And remember that what you do NOW takes about 10 days to 2 weeks to see a change.

So on day one of reopening you could have 4000 ventilators and 10,000 ICU beds in a state. And your virus count is maybe something like 1000 beds being used and 500 ventilators being used. You are "just fine" right? But remember what geometric progression does. With no measures being taken those values can double (or more) every day. So on day 2 you get 2000 beds and 1000 ventilators, day 3 you get 4000 beds and 2000 ventilators, day 4 is 8000 beds and 4000 venitlators. And you are blown away by day five. Point being, that if you fark it up... you can go from just fine, to blown away in a week or so and there's nothing you can do in time to prevent a bunch of folks dying.

Agree completely on allowing people to open back up slowly while monitoring. In addition, the high risk should be aware and take their own Extra precautions. For example, things are starting to open back up around me and we haven’t gone anywhere cause my son is high risk (even though the young overall are low risk).

 

[TigerCaper]

I think the positive takeaway is that hospitals in SC are nowhere remotely close to being overrun. So even if we have a little spike of resurgence, we should be totally fine.

Also, we have protocols in place now so that we can quickly dial everything back if our hospitals begin to become overrun with cases.

I think this is true, but I suspect the better course 6 weeks back was a very tight lockdown to "crush" the curve, not flatten it. Intermittent lockdowns will be very costly in both lives and money, I suspect. We likely will get the worst of both worlds in my opinion, a ruined economy and a massive amount of death and sickness.

 

[IcelandTiger]

I said South Korea. I said zippo about the swedes wearing masks. I also said that these people did what they were told. The Swedes weren't required to wear masks.

Well you did say schools are closed in Sweden, which is not true. The majority of kids in Sweden are in school.