Has your party shifted so much that you feel abandoned?

[Joe Cobb]

In my life I have voted for both democrats and republicans, however I have found myself not having a home in either one of the major parties anymore.

I mean I never felt completely in lockstep with either major party... but more so today than anytime before.

I seriously doubt Bill Clinton could get elected today as a Democrat. Trump is more populist than conservative or Republican.

And please don't press the "Libertarian" label on me either. They are as vague as a bigfoot video.

 

[PAWrocka]

The Republican Party has gone full on Trump and I cannot follow.

At some point the kind of “person” you vote for has to matter.

Integrity matters … at least it matters to me.

 

[Budgripe86]

In my life I have voted for both democrats and republicans, however I have found myself not having a home in either one of the major parties anymore.

I mean I never felt completely in lockstep with either major party... but more so today than anytime before.

I seriously doubt Bill Clinton could get elected today as a Democrat. Trump is more populist than conservative or Republican.

And please don't press the "Libertarian" label on me either. They are as vague as a bigfoot video.

I know several people who feel the way you’ve described. Out of curiosity, what exactly has changed in both parties that has caused you to feel this way?

Also, just for clarity- regarding the vague libertarian comment, what do you mean? You don’t wish to be labeled as one? Or rather the position itself is vague, so people who claim the libertarian party shouldn’t participate in the discussion you wish you to have?

I appreciate the topic, I think it’s a valid concern many have.

 

[hopefultiger13]

In my life I have voted for both democrats and republicans, however I have found myself not having a home in either one of the major parties anymore.

I mean I never felt completely in lockstep with either major party... but more so today than anytime before.

I seriously doubt Bill Clinton could get elected today as a Democrat. Trump is more populist than conservative or Republican.

And please don't press the "Libertarian" label on me either. They are as vague as a bigfoot video.

Absolutely... I used to be a member of the Republican party, although even then I was less conservative than most. I've never been a Democrat. I've voted for both parties over the years as well. Even after I left the Republican party, I was more inclined to vote Republican than Democrat... certainly at the state and local level. I always considered the Republican party the "Adults in the room" and the law and order party. Not so much any more...

It's probably not fair, but I've always thought of the Dems as the "out there" politicians with the wacky ideas and crazy talk. So when they do crazy things, I'm more tolerant of them than I am Republicans.

Honestly the way the Republicans are now with Trump is just kind of the culmination of the crazy train the Republicans have been on for most of 20 years... gradually accepting more and more crazy stuff until they are just plain unrecognizable to me.

I'm in my 50s now and I NEVER thought I'd see a Republican Candidate that publicly cheated on two of his wives and cheated on the 3rd one with a porn star AND paid the porn star off with campaign funds. Not to mention getting caught on tape saying he just grabbed women by the pussy. That used to not be OK.

 

[fatpiggy]

Absolutely... I used to be a member of the Republican party, although even then I was less conservative than most. I've never been a Democrat. I've voted for both parties over the years as well. Even after I left the Republican party, I was more inclined to vote Republican than Democrat... certainly at the state and local level. I always considered the Republican party the "Adults in the room" and the law and order party. Not so much any more...

It's probably not fair, but I've always thought of the Dems as the "out there" politicians with the wacky ideas and crazy talk. So when they do crazy things, I'm more tolerant of them than I am Republicans.

Honestly the way the Republicans are now with Trump is just kind of the culmination of the crazy train the Republicans have been on for most of 20 years... gradually accepting more and more crazy stuff until they are just plain unrecognizable to me.

I'm in my 50s now and I NEVER thought I'd see a Republican Candidate that publicly cheated on two of his wives and cheated on the 3rd one with a porn star AND paid the porn star off with campaign funds. Not to mention getting caught on tape saying he just grabbed women by the pussy. That used to not be OK.

And yet you gloss right over Bill "Epstein Island" Clinton.

There can be a lot of differentiators between the parties, but the morality of politicians in both parties sucks.

 

[Budgripe86]

Absolutely... I used to be a member of the Republican party, although even then I was less conservative than most. I've never been a Democrat. I've voted for both parties over the years as well. Even after I left the Republican party, I was more inclined to vote Republican than Democrat... certainly at the state and local level. I always considered the Republican party the "Adults in the room" and the law and order party. Not so much any more...

It's probably not fair, but I've always thought of the Dems as the "out there" politicians with the wacky ideas and crazy talk. So when they do crazy things, I'm more tolerant of them than I am Republicans.

Honestly the way the Republicans are now with Trump is just kind of the culmination of the crazy train the Republicans have been on for most of 20 years... gradually accepting more and more crazy stuff until they are just plain unrecognizable to me.

I'm in my 50s now and I NEVER thought I'd see a Republican Candidate that publicly cheated on two of his wives and cheated on the 3rd one with a porn star AND paid the porn star off with campaign funds. Not to mention getting caught on tape saying he just grabbed women by the pussy. That used to not be OK.

I'm in my 50s now and I NEVER thought I'd see a Republican Candidate that publicly cheated on two of his wives and cheated on the 3rd one with a porn star AND paid the porn star off with campaign funds. Not to mention getting caught on tape saying he just grabbed women by the pussy. That used to not be OK.

And yet he has near full support and worship from the evangelical Christians. It is beyond comprehension the level of double mindedness and hypocrisy.

You can bet with certainty that if Trump had a (D) beside his name on a ballot they’d all be telling us how he’s the Antichrist.

 

[Budgripe86]

And yet you gloss right over Bill "Epstein Island" Clinton.

There can be a lot of differentiators between the parties, but the morality of politicians in both parties sucks.

You can be certain that if that info came out back in the 90’s Bill would not have had the full support of the evangelical Christians, or his party for that matter.

 

[dpic73]

You can be certain that if that info came out back in the 90’s Bill would not have had the full support of the evangelical Christians, or his party for that matter.

When the Lewensky story came out, I thought he deserved impeachment, even if I didn't want him kicked out of office - but I would have accepted it if he was.

 

[yoshi121374]

Great topic and true for me as well. I've always been fairly moderate. Pretty liberal socially, and pretty conservative Fiscally.

I don't like how far left many in the Democratic party have gone, I could have never voted for Bernie Sanders. I also can't ever get on the Trump train. The guy is complete and total trash and it's shocking he has a following, particularly as a Republican. At some point integrity has to matter, particularly for a position that is a representative of America to the world. I don't want to be seen by the rest of the world as being like Donald Trump.

If the Republicans would nominate a moderate such as Nikki Haley, I would vote for her in an instant. At least it would be an adult in the room who demonstrates some ability to create unity and get stuff done.

What we are seeing on the right with the MAGA folks seems to be the next step in the Tea Party movement. It's a bunch of angry, white blue collar folks who can't really tell you what they are mad about, but they feel cheated, and they are mad. Look at some of the threads created by the MAGA fans such as @OleFastball @fatpiggy . They are posts that do nothing but gripe about other groups getting advantages, and perceived slights to white men. What's more frustrating is you cannot reason with them, and they feel no shame at all, cause Trump said it or Trump did it.

 

[yoshi121374]

And yet you gloss right over Bill "Epstein Island" Clinton.

There can be a lot of differentiators between the parties, but the morality of politicians in both parties sucks.

But you know full well that Trump is a scumbag who has cheated on his wives and you are fine with that? Doesn't bother you that he's a fake Christian? Doesn't bother you that he lies and treats people horribly.

If you were so bothered by Clinton, why are you allowing worse from your Lord and Savior Trump?

 

[Budgripe86]

When the Lewensky story came out, I thought he deserved impeachment, even if I didn't want him kicked out of office - but I would have accepted it if he was.

I was a young kid when this story came out. I remember my parents turning the news off when the Clinton affair received air time, they didn’t want their young kids to be exposed to such talk at an impressionable age. I now have young kids. We don’t watch the news in my house but if we did I’d have to turn it off if they showed a Trump rally or press conference.

It blows my mind people are taking their kids to Trump rallies to hear him mock, berate and use foul language.

 

[dbjork6317]

In my life I have voted for both democrats and republicans, however I have found myself not having a home in either one of the major parties anymore.

I mean I never felt completely in lockstep with either major party... but more so today than anytime before.

I seriously doubt Bill Clinton could get elected today as a Democrat. Trump is more populist than conservative or Republican.

And please don't press the "Libertarian" label on me either. They are as vague as a bigfoot video.

To an extent, yes. To me an important difference between Ds and Rs is that while portions of the Democratic Party have moved far left and that portion of their party is represented in congress, the most mainstream candidates they have, like Biden, are pretty standard Democrats with relatively mainstream ideas.

I’d push back on the idea that Bill Clinton couldn’t win today because Obama, Biden, and obviously Hillary all have very similar political philosophies. Some tweaks would need to be made, but by and large his policy stances aren’t wildly different than Biden’s are today.

On the Republican side however, the extreme wing has taken complete control of the party. To the point that even “mainstream” candidates with more traditional Republican policy ideas all said that they would support Donald Trump even if he were convicted. This is astonishing to me.

So I certainly feel like a portion of the Democratic Party has left me behind, but not as a whole. On the Republican side, the Republican ideas that I agree with and could consider voting for are far, far outweighed by the absolute insanity that has become their mainstream policy.

 

[WapPride]

To an extent, yes. To me an important difference between Ds and Rs is that while portions of the Democratic Party have moved far left and that portion of their party is represented in congress, the most mainstream candidates they have, like Biden, are pretty standard Democrats with relatively mainstream ideas.

I’d push back on the idea that Bill Clinton couldn’t win today because Obama, Biden, and obviously Hillary all have very similar political philosophies. Some tweaks would need to be made, but by and large his policy stances aren’t wildly different than Biden’s are today.

On the Republican side however, the extreme wing has taken complete control of the party. To the point that even “mainstream” candidates with more tradition Republican policy ideas all said that they would support Donald Trump even if he were convicted. This is astonishing to me.

So I certainly feel like a portion of the Democratic Party has left me behind, but not as a whole. On the Republican side, the Republican ideas that I agree with and could consider voting for our far, far outweighed by the absolutely insanity that has become their mainstream policy.

This is a really well done post

 

[adgjunior]

The Republican Party has gone full on Trump and I cannot follow.

At some point the kind of “person” you vote for has to matter.

Integrity matters … at least it matters to me.

It mattered to Republicans when Clinton was President. How many times did you hear one say "integrity matters more than the economy" when Clinton was using the stock market and low unemployment to whitewash his actions? Now it's "I'll take a few mean tweets for $2 gas" as if Trump's only transgressions are his Social Media tirades.

A Gallup poll from 2018 showed that when Clinton was in office 86% of Republican voters felt providing moral leadership was important for the President. That number dropped to 63% under Trump. What changed?

I remember when Trump was running in 2015, we were talking at work about the idea of him being President. One of the guys who leaned left-center said if Trump wins the primary he may consider voting for him because he disliked Hilary immensely. He went on to say in 2016 after the primary was settled that "there is a slight chance that Trump can overcome his campaign rhetoric and choose a strong Cabinet and be successful and that is intriguing. On the other hand there is a much greater chance that it will be complete shit-show and set politics and public discourse back so far that it will take a generation to overcome". I felt the latter was always what I saw from Trump from the first debate in 2015. However, the damage he has done (along with right-wing media) to millions of Americans is more than I ever imagined.

I cannot believe that the party of "family values" and "law and order" completely sold-out to a guy that espouses NONE OF IT and never has. There are so many Republicans that I will never vote for - simply because they sold themselves to Trump. Especially the ones that jump back in with him after what they saw November 2020 - January 2021.

 

[Budgripe86]

To an extent, yes. To me an important difference between Ds and Rs is that while portions of the Democratic Party have moved far left and that portion of their party is represented in congress, the most mainstream candidates they have, like Biden, are pretty standard Democrats with relatively mainstream ideas.

I’d push back on the idea that Bill Clinton couldn’t win today because Obama, Biden, and obviously Hillary all have very similar political philosophies. Some tweaks would need to be made, but by and large his policy stances aren’t wildly different than Biden’s are today.

On the Republican side however, the extreme wing has taken complete control of the party. To the point that even “mainstream” candidates with more tradition Republican policy ideas all said that they would support Donald Trump even if he were convicted. This is astonishing to me.

So I certainly feel like a portion of the Democratic Party has left me behind, but not as a whole. On the Republican side, the Republican ideas that I agree with and could consider voting for our far, far outweighed by the absolutely insanity that has become their mainstream policy.

Great points, I don’t disagree with anything you said there. It is wild how Trump has managed to capture the republican party.

On the Republican side, the Republican ideas that I agree with and could consider voting for our far, far outweighed by the absolutely insanity that has become their mainstream policy.

I do have a question for you here- what are the policies you’re referring to when you say, “.. the absolute insanity that has become their mainstream policy.”?

 

[clemsontiger02]

Honestly the way the Republicans are now with Trump is just kind of the culmination of the crazy train the Republicans have been on for most of 20 years... gradually accepting more and more crazy stuff until they are just plain unrecognizable to me.

I'm in my 50s now and I NEVER thought I'd see a Republican Candidate that publicly cheated on two of his wives and cheated on the 3rd one with a porn star AND paid the porn star off with campaign funds. Not to mention getting caught on tape saying he just grabbed women by the pussy. That used to not be OK.

This is because "owning the libs" has evolved into THE most important thing for today's GOP. Everything else is secondary.

 

[hopefultiger13]

And yet you gloss right over Bill "Epstein Island" Clinton.

There can be a lot of differentiators between the parties, but the morality of politicians in both parties sucks.

Not all... The question was about my party and why it had left me... So that was Republican to me.

Bill Clinton is a scumbag. An effective one (as he was the last President and the only one in my lifetime that balanced the budget), but a scumbag none the less. When you have that many women accusing you of sexual harassment, you pretty much know he's slimy. I think he should have been removed from office as President. Not because he banged Monica, but because he lied under oath to investigators.

The primary difference here is that you only PRETEND to be reasonable about stuff like this. See what I did above with Clinton. That's just the flat out truth about the man. I bet you won't say the same about Trump though... Wasn't he an Epstein guy too for a while? Doesn't he have just as many women accusing him of sexual harassment? Hasn't he actually been found liable by a jury for sexual assault? And yet all you do is sing his praises... Come on man say it out loud... Trump is a scumbag. I don't think you can.

 

[dbjork6317]

Great points, I don’t disagree with anything you said there. It is wild how Trump has managed to capture the republican party.

I do have a question for you here- what are the policies you’re referring to when you say, “.. the absolute insanity that has become their mainstream policy.”?

Authoritarianism. The leading candidate for their nomination has openly stated he should be immune from the law, that he intends to be a dictator, that he plans to utilize the justice department to persecute political rivals, that he wants to create a Christian task force, that he should not be held to 2 term limits, that he will open up investigations into members of the media who say negative things about him, and that he will encourage the invasion of NATO countries by Russia.

Not to mention he is currently under federal indictment for conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Yet NO Republican will stand up against it, they’ll stand on no principle, they’ll kowtow to his every whim, and follow him right down the path to Fascism.

 

[fatpiggy]

Authoritarianism. The leading candidate for their nomination has openly stated he should be immune from the law, that he intends to be a dictator, that he plans to utilize the justice department to persecute political rivals, that he wants to create a Christian task force, that he should not be held to 2 term limits, that he will open up investigations into members of the media who say negative things about him, and that he will encourage the invasion of NATO countries by Russia.

Not to mention he is currently under federal indictment for conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Yet NO Republican will stand up against it, they’ll stand on no principle, they’ll kowtow to his every whim, and follow him right down the path to Fascism.

You can say the exact same thing about the democratic party. Joe Biden says insane shit everyday but i don't see you on your soapbox declaring him unfit for office. He literally spews unintentional lies all day long. Why do you hold Trump and the Republicans to a different standard?

 

[Budgripe86]

Authoritarianism. The leading candidate for their nomination has openly stated he should be immune from the law, that he intends to be a dictator, that he plans to utilize the justice department to persecute political rivals, that he wants to create a Christian task force, that he should not be held to 2 term limits, that he will open up investigations into members of the media who say negative things about him, and that he will encourage the invasion of NATO countries by Russia.

Not to mention he is currently under federal indictment for conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Yet NO Republican will stand up against it, they’ll stand on no principle, they’ll kowtow to his every whim, and follow him right down the path to Fascism.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were referring to some specific policies from his actual presidency.

I agree, his unhinged campaign rhetoric and threats are absolutely insane this go around.

The sad part for his followers is either
A) you’ve got to believe he’s telling the truth about his intentions, and accept you’re voting for a fascist to beat the fascist. Or
B) play it off as “Trump being Trump” and admit your candidate is a juvenile idiot at best.

Either way, it’s insanity.

 

[dbjork6317]

You can say the exact same thing about the democratic party. Joe Biden says insane shit everyday but i don't see you on your soapbox declaring him unfit for office. He literally spews unintentional lies all day long. Why do you hold Trump and the Republicans to a different standard?

Can you point to an instances of Joe Biden saying the things that I just listed Donald Trump has said?

 

[hopefultiger13]

Can you point to an instances of Joe Biden saying the things that I just listed Donald Trump has said?

THIS!!! Specifically the "Set aside the Constitution" part.

Here's Trump on Trump Social:

"A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,” Donald Trump.

Show us where Biden called for the termination of the Constitution please.

 

[dpic73]

You can say the exact same thing about the democratic party. Joe Biden says insane shit everyday but i don't see you on your soapbox declaring him unfit for office. He literally spews unintentional lies all day long. Why do you hold Trump and the Republicans to a different standard?

You're not a serious person.

"In public, he made more than 800 inaccurate claims about the election from the time the polls began closing on Nov. 3, 2020, to the end of his presidency, according to a database compiled by The Washington Post. Dozens of times, he simply characterized the election as “rigged,” “stolen” or “a hoax,” and flatly and falsely declared he had won — even as a mountain of evidence proved otherwise. Other falsehoods were more specific about the voting and ballot-counting process, contained unproven allegations and promoted conspiracy theories."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/us/politics/trump-election-lies-fact-check.html

 

[fatpiggy]

Can you point to an instances of Joe Biden saying the things that I just listed Donald Trump has said?

Do you think he is capable of putting together those thoughts?

It sure seems like you have standards for one but not the other.

 

[Budgripe86]

Do you think he is capable of putting together those thoughts?

It sure seems like you have standards for one but not the other.

He asked you to name instances of Biden saying similar things as Trump. You can’t so you move the goalpost.

Trust me, I’ll be the last person to ever defend Biden, but you can’t come into a conversation making accusations if you can’t back it up with facts.

I came to this thread and commented because it appeared @Joe Cobb had a topic everyone could discuss without the ridiculous yelling over each other. Obviously I was mistaken. Please stop

 

[fatpiggy]

He asked you to name instances of Biden saying similar things as Trump. You can’t so you move the goalpost.

Trust me, I’ll be the last person to ever defend Biden, but you can’t come into a conversation making accusations if you can’t back it up with facts.

I came to this thread and commented because it appeared @Joe Cobb had a topic everyone could discuss without the ridiculous yelling over each other. Obviously I was mistaken. Please stop

I can certainly find lies that Biden says. He says them almost every day. They are sometimes unintentional because, as documented by the Special Counsel, he is senile. Do you actually need me to post a video of Biden speaking recently? Just search any video in the last 3-6 months.

Im just curious as to why Bidens lies are OK, but Trumps are not? Not one democrat is in here calling for the removal of Biden due to his lies, yet he is clearly unfit to serve. But they will trash Trump, who they disagree with, yet is clearly fit to serve.

So I ask you, why are Bidens lies OK, but Trumps lies are a problem?

 

[okclem]

In my life I have voted for both democrats and republicans, however I have found myself not having a home in either one of the major parties anymore.

I mean I never felt completely in lockstep with either major party... but more so today than anytime before.

I seriously doubt Bill Clinton could get elected today as a Democrat. Trump is more populist than conservative or Republican.

And please don't press the "Libertarian" label on me either. They are as vague as a bigfoot video.

I feel you on this one.

 

[Budgripe86]

I can certainly find lies that Biden says. He says them almost every day. They are sometimes unintentional because, as documented by the Special Counsel, he is senile. Do you actually need me to post a video of Biden speaking recently? Just search any video in the last 3-6 months.

Im just curious as to why Bidens lies are OK, but Trumps are not? Not one democrat is in here calling for the removal of Biden due to his lies, yet he is clearly unfit to serve. But they will trash Trump, who they disagree with, yet is clearly fit to serve.

So I ask you, why are Bidens lies OK, but Trumps lies are a problem?

I’m not saying Biden’s lies and made up stories are “ok”.

There is however a huge difference between Biden’s senility and Trump’s desire for retribution.

 

[AugTig]

I’m not saying Biden’s lies and made up stories are “ok”.

There is however a huge difference between Biden’s senility and Trump’s desire for retribution.

Terrible take.

 

[Budgripe86]

Terrible take.

Care to expound?

 

[dbjork6317]

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were referring to some specific policies from his actual presidency.

I agree, his unhinged campaign rhetoric and threats are absolutely insane this go around.

The sad part for his followers is either
A) you’ve got to believe he’s telling the truth about his intentions, and accept you’re voting for a fascist to beat the fascist. Or
B) play it off as “Trump being Trump” and admit your candidate is a juvenile idiot at best.

Either way, it’s insanity.

There were definitely policies I thought were outside of the political norm that Trump supported. One being a travel ban on Muslim countries. I also have a lot of qualms with the intensity of the Republican stances on immigration, which are far to the right now compared to past Republicans, including Reagan.

I will also never support policies that roll back the rights of LGBT people and Trump and Republicans have moved very hard to the right on those issues.

I do generally support deregulation, but Trump axed Obama’s pandemic preparedness program and rescinded Obama era regulations on trains carrying high risk toxins. These turned out to be very bad ideas.

And this is something I find a lot, Republicans want deregulation/budget cuts but tend to trim in areas that are actually important.

I did support Trump’s cuts to corporate taxes and pass through income, but I felt more could have been done to incentivize businesses and ensure the tax savings were being passed on to the workers.

I wholeheartedly supported Trump’s push for infrastructure development, though I’m not certain he wouldn’t have added a provision that they add “Trump” to every new building lol.

 

[TigerGrowls]

Absolutely... I used to be a member of the Republican party, although even then I was less conservative than most. I've never been a Democrat. I've voted for both parties over the years as well. Even after I left the Republican party, I was more inclined to vote Republican than Democrat... certainly at the state and local level. I always considered the Republican party the "Adults in the room" and the law and order party. Not so much any more...

It's probably not fair, but I've always thought of the Dems as the "out there" politicians with the wacky ideas and crazy talk. So when they do crazy things, I'm more tolerant of them than I am Republicans.

Honestly the way the Republicans are now with Trump is just kind of the culmination of the crazy train the Republicans have been on for most of 20 years... gradually accepting more and more crazy stuff until they are just plain unrecognizable to me.

I'm in my 50s now and I NEVER thought I'd see a Republican Candidate that publicly cheated on two of his wives and cheated on the 3rd one with a porn star AND paid the porn star off with campaign funds. Not to mention getting caught on tape saying he just grabbed women by the pussy. That used to not be OK.

This is funny. The prim and proper pot smoker.

 

[fatpiggy]

There were definitely policies I thought were outside of the political norm that Trump supported. One being a travel ban on Muslim countries. I also have a lot of qualms with the intensity of the Republican stances on immigration, which are far to the right now compared to past Republicans, including Reagan.

I will also never support policies that roll back the rights of LGBT people and Trump and Republicans have moved very hard to the right on those issues.

I do generally support deregulation, but Trump axed Obama’s pandemic preparedness program and rescinded Obama era regulations on trains carrying high risk toxins. These turned out to be very bad ideas.

And this is something I find a lot, Republicans want deregulation/budget cuts but tend to trim in areas that are actually important.

I did support Trump’s cuts to corporate taxes and pass through income, but I felt more could have been done to incentivize businesses and ensure the tax savings were being passed on to the workers.

I wholeheartedly supported Trump’s push for infrastructure development, though I’m not certain he wouldn’t have added a provision that they add “Trump” to every new building lol.

What about the Republicans stance on immigration is "Far right"?

Republicans want to
1) know who is coming into the country
2) make sure that our communities can handle the influx of people and not be overwhelmed.
3) Don't tie our countries security to any other country. i.e. stand alone bill
4) If you make a claim, you need some proof of said claim. (Asylum)

Contrast that verse the left

1) Biden, campaigned on and encourages illegals to come to our country
2) Passes laws declaring "sanctuary cities"
3) Allows our cities to be overwhelmed at the cost of the American Citizen and Taxpayer
4) Allows illegal immigration (i.e. 2000 people per day before penalites kick in)


Which policy seems like the more extreme policy?

 

[Joe Cobb]

Judging from the responses there is still some vast chasms in beliefs. As to address the questions to me...

I think Bill Clinton would be perceived as a centrist, somewhat right leaning candidate today. He campaigned on improving the economy, reducing the $300 Billion dollar deficit (LMAO), taking "power back from the bureaucracy in Washington, DC" and giving it back to the people. He actually signed the "Defense of Marriage Act" which was not well received by the gay community. His stance and legislation on illegal immigration would be considered draconian and "TrumP" like in today's world.

Yeah Bill Clinton couldn't get elected on the Democratic ticket today. And I'd argue if the 1992 Clinton ran today... he'd probably win in a landslide. So there's that.

Fiscal conservatism (something that Bill Clinton actually ran on) is no longer even discussed. Our current debt is about 35 TRILLION. And neither party even wants to discuss it. Both parties have lost me here especially.

Big Government, Big Debt, and random legislation when we don't even enforce current law.

George W. Bush was a champion of immigration. He visited President Fox of Mexico, and introduced immigration reform. While securing the borders, he offered paths to undocumented folks and pushed for family Reunification. He'd probably be skewered as a liberal today just based on his stance on immigration. And something that I applauded him for...

And I can go on, but I've got a feeling most people won't read my summation as how the parties have drifted away from their constituents, but more of how they can prove their party is "right" or "better" than the other guys.

And finally... my view on Libertarians being vague. I mean just that... that party is encapsulating the fringe of both parties, the folks who feel unrepresented, and everything in between. It's like a non-denomination church.

It's just no for me.

Personally, I want a government, and leadership that adheres to fiscal conservatism. (Jimmy Carter had the best idea that got corrupted quickly in ZBB). I prefer a strong military as that is defined in the Constitution, and I want secure, AND welcoming borders. I think the Constitution does a great job of spelling out the rights and roles of the government and states. I will gladly pay taxes to support these roles and vote for folks who advocate for the rights expressed in the Constitution. I don't like the government getting involved in social norms, as I don't think that is an expressed or implied right of the government.

But what we have now is open borders pursued by one aspect, loonacy on the other... and a bunch of people yelling at each other like a sports event.

I think I'm just gonna start sitting this stuff out.

 

[harristeeter]

Judging from the responses there is still some vast chasms in beliefs. As to address the questions to me...

I think Bill Clinton would be perceived as a centrist, somewhat right leaning candidate today. He campaigned on improving the economy, reducing the $300 Billion dollar deficit (LMAO), taking "power back from the bureaucracy in Washington, DC" and giving it back to the people. He actually signed the "Defense of Marriage Act" which was not well received by the gay community. His stance and legislation on illegal immigration would be considered draconian and "TrumP" like in today's world.

Yeah Bill Clinton couldn't get elected on the Democratic ticket today. And I'd argue if the 1992 Clinton ran today... he'd probably win in a landslide. So there's that.

Fiscal conservatism (something that Bill Clinton actually ran on) is no longer even discussed. Our current debt is about 35 TRILLION. And neither party even wants to discuss it. Both parties have lost me here especially.

Big Government, Big Debt, and random legislation when we don't even enforce current law.

George W. Bush was a champion of immigration. He visited President Fox of Mexico, and introduced immigration reform. While securing the borders, he offered paths to undocumented folks and pushed for family Reunification. He'd probably be skewered as a liberal today just based on his stance on immigration. And something that I applauded him for...

And I can go on, but I've got a feeling most people won't read my summation as how the parties have drifted away from their constituents, but more of how they can prove their party is "right" or "better" than the other guys.

And finally... my view on Libertarians being vague. I mean just that... that party is encapsulating the fringe of both parties, the folks who feel unrepresented, and everything in between. It's like a non-denomination church.

It's just no for me.

Personally, I want a government, and leadership that adheres to fiscal conservatism. (Jimmy Carter had the best idea that got corrupted quickly in ZBB). I prefer a strong military as that is defined in the Constitution, and I want secure, AND welcoming borders. I think the Constitution does a great job of spelling out the rights and roles of the government and states. I will gladly pay taxes to support these roles and vote for folks who advocate for the rights expressed in the Constitution. I don't like the government getting involved in social norms, as I don't think that is an expressed or implied right of the government.

But what we have now is open borders pursued by one aspect, loonacy on the other... and a bunch of people yelling at each other like a sports event.

I think I'm just gonna start sitting this stuff out.

Very well said and SPOT ON.

 

[dbjork6317]

What about the Republicans stance on immigration is "Far right"?

Republicans want to
1) know who is coming into the country
2) make sure that our communities can handle the influx of people and not be overwhelmed.
3) Don't tie our countries security to any other country. i.e. stand alone bill
4) If you make a claim, you need some proof of said claim. (Asylum)

Contrast that verse the left

1) Biden, campaigned on and encourages illegals to come to our country
2) Passes laws declaring "sanctuary cities"
3) Allows our cities to be overwhelmed at the cost of the American Citizen and Taxpayer
4) Allows illegal immigration (i.e. 2000 people per day before penalites kick in)


Which policy seems like the more extreme policy?

Then why are Republicans blocking a Senate bill that would address some of those concerns?

 

[acwill07]

The Republican Party has gone full on Trump and I cannot follow.

At some point the kind of “person” you vote for has to matter.

Integrity matters … at least it matters to me.

This. Trump can never again be the president of this great nation.

 

[dbjork6317]

Judging from the responses there is still some vast chasms in beliefs. As to address the questions to me...

I think Bill Clinton would be perceived as a centrist, somewhat right leaning candidate today. He campaigned on improving the economy, reducing the $300 Billion dollar deficit (LMAO), taking "power back from the bureaucracy in Washington, DC" and giving it back to the people. He actually signed the "Defense of Marriage Act" which was not well received by the gay community. His stance and legislation on illegal immigration would be considered draconian and "TrumP" like in today's world.

Yeah Bill Clinton couldn't get elected on the Democratic ticket today. And I'd argue if the 1992 Clinton ran today... he'd probably win in a landslide. So there's that.

Fiscal conservatism (something that Bill Clinton actually ran on) is no longer even discussed. Our current debt is about 35 TRILLION. And neither party even wants to discuss it. Both parties have lost me here especially.

Big Government, Big Debt, and random legislation when we don't even enforce current law.

George W. Bush was a champion of immigration. He visited President Fox of Mexico, and introduced immigration reform. While securing the borders, he offered paths to undocumented folks and pushed for family Reunification. He'd probably be skewered as a liberal today just based on his stance on immigration. And something that I applauded him for...

And I can go on, but I've got a feeling most people won't read my summation as how the parties have drifted away from their constituents, but more of how they can prove their party is "right" or "better" than the other guys.

And finally... my view on Libertarians being vague. I mean just that... that party is encapsulating the fringe of both parties, the folks who feel unrepresented, and everything in between. It's like a non-denomination church.

It's just no for me.

Personally, I want a government, and leadership that adheres to fiscal conservatism. (Jimmy Carter had the best idea that got corrupted quickly in ZBB). I prefer a strong military as that is defined in the Constitution, and I want secure, AND welcoming borders. I think the Constitution does a great job of spelling out the rights and roles of the government and states. I will gladly pay taxes to support these roles and vote for folks who advocate for the rights expressed in the Constitution. I don't like the government getting involved in social norms, as I don't think that is an expressed or implied right of the government.

But what we have now is open borders pursued by one aspect, loonacy on the other... and a bunch of people yelling at each other like a sports event.

I think I'm just gonna start sitting this stuff out.

I’m not sure as much has changed as you might think. Clinton was viewed as a centrist even in 1992. I don’t think he would sign DOMA today, and certainly support for that would be a non starter for almost all Democrats, including me. But no one on the left has ever mistaken Clinton for a far left liberal. He was pro-choice, increased taxes on the wealthy, and pushed gun control legislation. These would be winning issues in any era for Democrats.

W. Bush was skewered by Republicans for his immigration stance, and you’ll remember he pushed hard for it and got nowhere with it with Republicans in congress.

To me what has changed is the extremist wings of the parties have actually been elected to important positions (esp on the right), the disagreements have gotten much louder and more hostile (instead of “your policy idea is wrong” we get “you’re a pedophile”), and the campaigning/fundraising never stops. This has been true for a while in the house, but now it’s hitting the Senate which was designed specifically to avoid constant campaigning and low turnover with 6 year terms. The 2028 Presidential race will begin on 11/6/2024. There’s just never a time where legislators are actually just governing rather than constantly trying to raise money and improve their chances for re-election.

 

[fatpiggy]

Then why are Republicans blocking a Senate bill that would address some of those concerns?

Because it addressed them in a very poor way?

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

When Mitt Romney was the GOP candidate that was the moment I realized that the partyhad left me

Super wuz and was terrible candidate