I’ve got sunshine….

[firegiver]

Strange hill to die one.

Who was it that was proven to be wrong at nearly every turn? (Hint: it was the so-called "experts")

Trump bowed to "the experts" initially and shut everything down but vowed to not do so anymore after that. That took courage and posterity shows that it was absolutely the RIGHT decision.

Imagine not listening to the experts and thinking that is smart. As I said back in 2020: most of us will listen to the experts and that will be enough to help reduce the spread. Hopefully it will go so well that the conspiracy theories will say they told us so. But we don't care we will carry you kicking and screaming out of the pandemic.

 

[johnhugh]

I'm shocked you would talk so bad about a fellow Doctor. Sad

Amynhop is not a doctor hahahahhaha. She probably works the front desk at a dental clinic that’s cash pay only

 

[firegiver]

Trump is NOT GETTING RID OF ABORTIONS

He already did. He delivered on that promise. His group he's appointing to cabinet will make sure to push for a national abortion ban. Its all in the plan bubba.

 

[yoshi121374]

Amynhop is not a doctor hahahahhaha. She probably works the front desk at a dental clinic that’s cash pay only

Oh, I know. She claimed at one point on TI that she was a Brain Surgeon.

 

[Cavitybacks]

He already did. He delivered on that promise. His group he's appointing to cabinet will make sure to push for a national abortion ban. Its all in the plan bubba.

Abortions were at an all time high last year. If there was a national ban, it would actually make it easier in many states. They would adopt the European model of 15 weeks and emergencies. That was the proposal. I'd say everyone would agree to 15 weeks considering only 3% of all abortions in the USA happen after 16 weeks.

Personally, I think it's silly to say that an abortion is different at 12 weeks vs 20 weeks vs 35 weeks. There's no practical difference. A baby can't survive on it's on until it's like 8 years old, so that's a really dumb argument imo. But I understand that you have to meet in the middle.

 

[AndersonTiger85]

Abortions were at an all time high last year. If there was a national ban, it would actually make it easier in many states. They would adopt the European model of 15 weeks and emergencies. That was the proposal. I'd say everyone would agree to 15 weeks considering only 3% of all abortions in the USA happen after 16 weeks.

Personally, I think it's silly to say that an abortion is different at 12 weeks vs 20 weeks vs 35 weeks. There's no practical difference. A baby can't survive on it's on until it's like 8 years old, so that's a really dumb argument imo.

Please send an article confirming the stat--I believe that abortions increased in the past year in states without bans, as people traveled across state lines.

To your personal point about 12 vs 20 vs 35 weeks, I don't want to debate that, as I'm not an OB/GYN. There's a line somewhere where the fetus becomes a life--and that's what Roe stood for (whether you degree on the line of demarcation or not). And your last sentence about 8 years olds is just disingenuous--you strike me as someone who is smarter/more rational than that.

 

[leetp]

"babies don't have fundamental rights"? That was the point of Roe. Defining that line, at viability, as to when a fetus had rights in addition to the woman carrying it. We saw the initial disaster when it came to IVF after Dobbs, which was the initial cause of Republicans to turn course. And, to address the implicit question, no, I do not believe ensoulment happens at conception, and there's nothing in the Bible to support that position. Regardless, one's view on when life begins is a moral/religious consideration that (IMHO) doesn't give you the right to enforce your view on others as a matter of law.

Don't really understand the reference to "socialist" Germany. Socialism is an economic policy.

Is viability really a good, moral threshold though? Have you ever read the daily development of a child in her mother's womb? It is hard to read something like that and think that it is okay to kill that developing life. I sincerely feel we are fighting for this so-called "right" at the expense of our humanity.

While I am religious, I was and am not now invoking religion to justify an antiabortion stance. I and fully aware of the futility of such an argument for someone that does not believe in a divine creator. Instead, I am attempting to make an appeal to humanity and whatever form of higher moral order one may subscribe to--spiritual or otherwise.

Socialism is a form of government. Marxism/communism is a socioeconomic policy...that is, a socialist form of government that also abides by a strict economic policy. Nevertheless, the invocation of the term was to demonstrate that Germany is largely further left on social governance--but even unfettered access to abortion is a bridge too far for them.

For the record, I'd rather not see abortion substantially regulated at any level. I'd rather it be something we could all see as a largely immoral exercise that we'd all naturally refrain from, that medical ethics would largely shun the exercise in most cases. I gave this quote before, and I'll do it again here:

We are not made righteous by the laws we feel compelled to enact; we are made righteous by the laws we do not have to enact.

 

[Cavitybacks]

Please send an article confirming the stat--I believe that abortions increased in the past year in states without bans, as people traveled across state lines.

To your personal point about 12 vs 20 vs 35 weeks, I don't want to debate that, as I'm not an OB/GYN. There's a line somewhere where the fetus becomes a life--and that's what Roe stood for (whether you degree on the line of demarcation or not). And your last sentence about 8 years olds is just disingenuous--you strike me as someone who is smarter/more rational than that.

First time to hit a million aborted babies/fetuses in over a decade (not highest year on record) was 2023.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/19/1238293143/abortion-data-how-many-us-2023#:~:text=To%20be%20precise%2C%20researchers%20estimate,a%20data%20scientist%20with%20Guttmacher.

also...

"The updated analysis considers 2021 CDC data, before the Dobbs decision, in a post-Dobbs policy landscape. The analysis shows that abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon and represent 1% of all abortions in the U.S. Ninety-six percent occurred at or before 15 weeks gestation, while 3% occurred from 16 to 20 weeks gestation." - cdc



My whole point is that this abortion topic is essentially pointless. Regardless of what you or anyone wants to happen, abortion is here to stay. The simplest solution is just do the 15 week deal and forget about it.

I just, personally, can't understand how someone could be cool with abortion at 15 weeks, but not cool with abortion at 25 weeks. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I think if you are pro-choice (which is totally fine), then the # of weeks should not matter.

The mother should be able to end the pregnancy any damn time she pleases if you are pro-choice, in my opinion.

 

[AndersonTiger85]

Is viability really a good, moral threshold though? Have you ever read the daily development of a child in her mother womb? It is hard to read something like that and thing that it is okay to kill that developing life. I sincerely feel we are fighting for this so-called "right" at the expense of our humanity.

While I am religious, I was and am not now invoking religion to justify an antiabortion stance. I and fully aware of the futility of such an argument for someone that does not believe in a divine creator. Instead, I am attempting to make an appeal to humanity and whatever form of higher moral order one may subscribe to--spiritual or otherwise.

Socialism is a form of government. Marxism/communism is a socioeconomic policy...that is, a socialist form of government that also abides by a strict economic policy. Nevertheless, the invocation of the term was to demonstrate that Germany is largely further left on social governance--but even unfettered access to abortion is a bridge too far for them.

For the record, I'd rather not see abortion substantially regulated at any level. I'd rather it be something we could all see as a largely immoral exercise that we'd all naturally refrain from, that medical ethics would largely shun the exercise in most cases. I gave this quote before, and I'll do it again here:

We are not made righteous by the laws we feel compelled to enact; we are made righteous by the laws we do not have to enact.

I guess the disconnect here is that, ever since I've been alive, women had a fundamental right to make the decision that you find immoral. Trump took that away at the will of the evangelical populist movement. It didn't impact me. I'm a male--and if I had impregnated someone after a one night stand who wanted to terminate a pregnancy, and she asked me, I'd have had a difficult time with signing off on that. 100%. But it's not the government's role, in my opinion, to mandate morality on a "grey" issue (ensoulment/personhood) with anything other than science/facts.

My IVF born daughter was baptisted two weekends ago. We are still holding on to the embryos that have 0% chance of viability because this is a tough morality call. But it's the call of me and my wife. Not elected officials, and we've seen the slippery slope of overturning Roe.

 

[okclem]

Kamala yeah!!

 

[AndersonTiger85]

First time to hit a million aborted babies/fetuses in over a decade (not highest year on record) was 2023.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/19/1238293143/abortion-data-how-many-us-2023#:~:text=To%20be%20precise%2C%20researchers%20estimate,a%20data%20scientist%20with%20Guttmacher.

also...

"The updated analysis considers 2021 CDC data, before the Dobbs decision, in a post-Dobbs policy landscape. The analysis shows that abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon and represent 1% of all abortions in the U.S. Ninety-six percent occurred at or before 15 weeks gestation, while 3% occurred from 16 to 20 weeks gestation." - cdc



My whole point is that this abortion topic is essentially pointless. Regardless of what you or anyone wants to happen, abortion is here to stay. The simplest solution is just do the 15 week deal and forget about it.

I just, personally, can't understand how someone could be cool with abortion at 15 weeks, but not cool with abortion at 25 weeks. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I think if you are pro-choice (which is totally fine), then the # of weeks should not matter.

The mother should be able to end the pregnancy any damn time she pleases if you are pro-choice, in my opinion.

Appreciate the article. I do disagree on your view that those of us that are pro-choice would advocate for a woman to terminate at "any damn time she pleases". It's more about the fact that we had a framework in place for many years--and I fully admit that many Americans disagreed with it--that in my mind, was OK. Stats on late term abortions are really low, and I highly doubt those are done out of convenience. But now we're drawing another arbitrary line in the sand, to address the fact that women's fundamental rights were taken away and certain geniuses in state houses/senate passed draconian laws that rightfully pissed women off.

 

[leetp]

I guess the disconnect here is that, ever since I've been alive, women had a fundamental right to make the decision that you find immoral. Trump took that away at the will of the evangelical populist movement. It didn't impact me. I'm a male--and if I had impregnated someone after a one night stand who wanted to terminate a pregnancy, and she asked me, I'd have had a difficult time with signing off on that. 100%. But it's not the government's role, in my opinion, to mandate morality on a "grey" issue (ensoulment/personhood) with anything other than science/facts.

My IVF born daughter was baptisted two weekends ago. We are still holding on to the embryos that have 0% chance of viability because this is a tough morality call. But it's the call of me and my wife. Not elected officials, and we've seen the slippery slope of overturning Roe.

I don't disagree, but I'm glad Roe was overturned.

The IVF argument is a bit overblown--but it is clearly a very personal one for you and many people. We used fertility to get pregnant, but not IVF. There is a moral way to do IVF that does not have to rely on the fertilization--and subsequent destruction of so many eggs...but still, this is a ridiculous place for government at any level to try to inject themselves. Robust medical ethics and a society in tune with a higher moral order should be a sufficient control on this behavior. I don't want to see ill-conceived laws drastically changing the way we do IVF. And outside of a few states, I don't think we will see that. I don't think the residents of the majority of state will support it.

 

[amynhop]

Oh, I know. She claimed at one point on TI that she was a Brain Surgeon.

You’re a liar. But we already know that. It was always a big joke and that’s been proven multiple times over the years.

 

[AndersonTiger85]

I don't disagree, but I'm glad Roe was overturned.

The IVF argument is a bit overblown--but it is clearly a very personal one for you and many people. We used fertility to get pregnant, but not IVF. There is a moral way to do IVF that does not have to rely on the fertilization--and subsequent destruction of so many eggs...but still, this is a ridiculous place for government at any level to try to inject themselves. Robust medical ethics and a society in tune with a higher moral order should be a sufficient control on this behavior. I don't want to see ill-conceived laws drastically changing the way we do IVF. And outside of a few states, I don't think we will see that. I don't think the residents of the majority of state will support it.

I hear you. Appreciate the level-headed back-and-forth here.

 

[firegiver]

Abortions were at an all time high last year. If there was a national ban, it would actually make it easier in many states. They would adopt the European model of 15 weeks and emergencies. That was the proposal. I'd say everyone would agree to 15 weeks considering only 3% of all abortions in the USA happen after 16 weeks.

Personally, I think it's silly to say that an abortion is different at 12 weeks vs 20 weeks vs 35 weeks. There's no practical difference. A baby can't survive on it's on until it's like 8 years old, so that's a really dumb argument imo. But I understand that you have to meet in the middle.

hows that help the women dying in Texas and Alabama? Just a states rights issue right? Murder should be a states rights issue next I propose.

 

[yoshi121374]

You’re a liar. But we already know that. It was always a big joke and that’s been proven multiple times over the years.

I'm a liar, but you admit you said it?

Honestly, how about you tell us what you actually do for a living? I've posted her multiple times what I and my family do for careers. That way I'm never confused when you say that you are a " a brain surgeon".