MAGA

[johnhugh]

I just don't think you have the right to be critical of combat veterans who provide relevant first hand experience and insight on the topic. I'll rephrase that, you have the right but it makes you come across as ignorant. If we need suggestions on how to fry chicken or to starve for attention on a message board I'm sure you'll be tagged.

I'm not being critical of combat veterans, I'm being satirical. The saddest part of this thread is that many are in here defending discrimination. That's just not right. Rather than provide an actual argument, which would probably be described as "Fake News", I instead provide my own form of discrimination, and it is of course welcomed with ridicule and shaming. The question then becomes why is my discrimination not ok but that of this thread is?

That's the problem

 

[dpotter24]

Is being transgender a different sexual orientation? I think it's closer to just being a super ****ed up individual but what ever

And do you want "super ****ed up individuals" serving in the military?

 

[dpotter24]

I just don't think you have the right to be critical of combat veterans who provide relevant first hand experience and insight on the topic. I'll rephrase that, you have the right but it makes you come across as ignorant. If we need suggestions on how to fry chicken or to starve for attention on a message board I'm sure you'll be tagged.

Ooh rah brother

 

[toolucky52384]

And do you want "super ****ed up individuals" serving in the military?

I'd answer like this...

1) I don't necessarily think transgender is "super ***ed up".
2) I think the military leadership ought to determine this and the president, whether it be Obama or Trump should approve their recommendation.
3) If the person working under me is intelligent and able to do their job I don't care if they are transgender, I'd rather compromise on traditional gender roles than ability and intelligence. That said, once again, the military leadership should be making the rec on this, not politicians.
4) I think Military leadership is likely going to be behind the curve on this, (slower to make changes then the rest of society)... i'm ok with that, so long as they eventually get there... I'd be pretty annoyed if they were still pushing segregation of race.

I fully understand that this was probably moved too fast by the last president and agree it probably was forced down the commands throat inappropriately.

I think over time this ought to reverse to the Obama position, but fully think that it might not be the right time now.

More than anything else... I wish Colin Powell had run in 2000. Prevented the Republican Party from going down the GWB / Anti Obama path, and probably prevented the ascension of Obama in the first place.

 

[Steven15]

I'd answer like this...

1) I don't necessarily think transgender is "super ***ed up".
2) I think the military leadership ought to determine this and the president, whether it be Obama or Trump should approve their recommendation.
3) If the person working under me is intelligent and able to do their job I don't care if they are transgender, I'd rather compromise on traditional gender roles than ability and intelligence. That said, once again, the military leadership should be making the rec on this, not politicians.
4) I think Military leadership is likely going to be behind the curve on this, (slower to make changes then the rest of society)... i'm ok with that, so long as they eventually get there... I'd be pretty annoyed if they were still pushing segregation of race.

Meh definitely not in an appalling "eww gross!! That's different from what I am/or usually see. Jesus would also not be happy" kind of way but anyone who would cut off/sow up their reproductive organs because they legitimately believe it is the wrong one for them and then slightly less than half end up committing suicide can certainly be labeled as "not right in the head"

 

[toolucky52384]

Meh definitely not in an appalling "eww gross!! That's different from what I am/or usually see. Jesus would also not be happy" kind of way but anyone who would cut off/sow up their reproductive organs because they legitimately believe it is the wrong one for them and then slightly less than half end up committing suicide can certainly be labeled as "not right in the head"

ok, well first of all...

• some people are born with undetermined sex as a chromosomal abnormality. (i.e. have both parts / partially developed parts of both) I don't think God makes mistakes, but I think biology creates gray areas.
• i'm not educated enough to say that such abnormality cannot present itself in more subtle ways, i.e. hormonal / instincts.
• i think a common trend in people of all sexual orientations / sexes who commit suicide is an inability to fit into society, whether they cause that themselves or society is cruel to them is debatable, but i think it at least is a little of both.

 

[Steven15]

ok, well first of all...

• some people are born with undetermined sex as a chromosomal abnormality. (i.e. have both parts / partially developed parts of both) I don't think God makes mistakes, but I think biology creates gray areas.
• i'm not educated enough to say that such abnormality cannot present itself in more subtle ways, i.e. hormonal / instincts.
• i think a common trend in people of all sexual orientations / sexes who commit suicide is an inability to fit into society, whether they cause that themselves or society is cruel to them is debatable, but i think it at least is a little of both.

Fair enough but this doesn't refute what I said

 

[toolucky52384]

Fair enough but this doesn't refute what I said

i honestly didn't understand what you were getting at with making jesus happy, but i think i did refute that it is as black and white as WWJD.

on the suicide points... I think humans in general, even at the highest levels of psychological education / research / training, have a poor understanding of what makes someone depressed to the point of suicide. mental health is not something we do well as a species. i'm not saying you are wrong, i'm just saying it is never a particularly convincing argument to me that someone killed themselves because they were messed up.

i'm a probabilistic guy... i don't box myself into deterministic barriers.

 

[tigerson]

While we're at it, veterans should not be able to work in their first 5 years of returning from duty. The American workforce needs to be focused and decisive, we don't need to worry about coddling those with PTSD. It just makes us all uncomfortable and gets in the way.

For once you're right about something, veterans should never have to worry about a job again after they come back from war. They should be taken care of for the rest of their lives, like these stupid politicians are.

 

[avengermg73]

I'm not being critical of combat veterans, I'm being satirical. The saddest part of this thread is that many are in here defending discrimination. That's just not right. Rather than provide an actual argument, which would probably be described as "Fake News", I instead provide my own form of discrimination, and it is of course welcomed with ridicule and shaming. The question then becomes why is my discrimination not ok but that of this thread is?

That's the problem

I understand you are young but have a pretty good head on your shoulders so I am not going to troll on you.

This decision is best for the health, welfare and discipline of our military. Until you can put on that uniform and see the effects of catering to such a minuscule amount of personnel, you won't see the issues.

I can promise this decision was discussed and debated to the fullest before the decision was made.

 

[COB1297]

I'm not being critical of combat veterans, I'm being satirical. The saddest part of this thread is that many are in here defending discrimination. That's just not right. Rather than provide an actual argument, which would probably be described as "Fake News", I instead provide my own form of discrimination, and it is of course welcomed with ridicule and shaming. The question then becomes why is my discrimination not ok but that of this thread is?

That's the problem

My uneducated stab at the reasoning...

I would dare to say that at General level this isn't as simple as discrimination or being a distraction.

People are deemed unfit to serve due to various physical and mental limitations.

Whether you consider someone who is a transgender being mentally ill or not, there is something mentally or biologically out of whack in these individuals. To be the gender they identify with, i'm pretty sure they have to take medications daily to make that happen.

Anyone who has to take any maintenance medication is a concern for the armed forces whether. I have Crohn's and have read many times where young men with crohn's were told they were medically unfit to serve even though they were in perfect health other wise at the time they attempt to enlist. I've read one of the concern's is the consistent medical attention anyone on these medications require take them away from their service. Another concern is what if they are in an isolated place or on a battlefield and cannot get these medications? In the instance of a transgender person, if they can't get to their medications, don't they will change mentally and physically. That could put them and others at risk.

Again, i don't know if that is the reasoning. Just a thought.

 

[toolucky52384]

My uneducated stab at the reasoning...

I would dare to say that at General level this isn't as simple as discrimination or being a distraction.

People are deemed unfit to serve due to various physical and mental limitations.

Whether you consider someone who is a transgender being mentally ill or not, there is something mentally or biologically out of whack in these individuals. To be the gender they identify with, i'm pretty sure they have to take medications daily to make that happen.

Anyone who has to take any maintenance medication is a concern for the armed forces whether. I have Crohn's and have read many times where young men with crohn's were told they were medically unfit to serve even though they were in perfect health other wise at the time they attempt to enlist. I've read one of the concern's is the consistent medical attention anyone on these medications require take them away from their service. Another concern is what if they are in an isolated place or on a battlefield and cannot get these medications? In the instance of a transgender person, if they can't get to their medications, don't they will change mentally and physically. That could put them and others at risk.

Again, i don't know if that is the reasoning. Just a thought.

well said, have no problem with any of this.

as i said previously, ideally this would be overseen and handled quietly at the joint chiefs level and not become an issue in the news unless it got 20 years behind society as a whole.

the fact that this issue is a political hot button / news issue is a problem in and of itself. this issue should be coming from the generals, and it should be executed without fanfare / media circus. is the media making a spectacle out of this... yes, did trump encourage them to by using a tweet to do this instead of a well drawn up press release issued by the DOD (that probably should have come on a Friday / not a Wednesday)... yes.

 

[Da Swami]

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Good try, but it wouldn't make sense as a business decision. But don't let your blind liberal point of view to look at the big picture. I don't expect much thinking from you anyway so carry on.

You are correct being a narrow minded self righteous bigot with a low IQ is not a liberal quality.

 

[avengermg73]

You are correct being a narrow minded self righteous bigot with a low IQ is not a liberal quality.

Oh how original..... you can't see the forest due to the trees. It's ok, it's to be expected. No quantifiable evidence to call someone a bigot, just throw shit on a wall and hope it sticks.

 

[wta21080]

GONNA GO AHEAD AND CHALK UP THE FIRST @johnhugh TAG ITT

Why? He didn't wanna join anyways.

 

[Howard's Jock]

Did the risk their lives? No. Until you've actually served in the military, your voice on this matter isn't worth shit. I'd bet you couldn't make it through a week of boot camp without crying for mommy

thats a shitty attitude...you served and i thank you for that, but your attitude is more of entitlement than service..im practical and dont think the juice is worth the squeeze for a small group of people..but i see what he is saying

 

[hopefultiger13]

As a member of the armed forces, this is great news. The military is not and should not be a social experiment to appease a very small portion of people.

The entire military had to go through mandatory transgender training by 1 July 2017. The training was between an hour to two hours long. This is Active Duty, National Guard, Reserves and DOD civilians. So looking at man hours alone for the Army you are looking at over 2 million. This is all the while while people are in war/ deployed from their families and what not.

Guess how many asked for transgender identification in the Army? 28. That is TWENTY EIGHT.

Juice ain't worth the squeeze.

To think it doesn't affect units discipline and morale to approve such BS is ridiculous.

Same argument that was made when the armed forces integrated... result? the argument was BS.

Same argument made for women ... result? the argument was BS.

I suspect the patter will repeat.

 

[johnhugh]

For once you're right about something, veterans should never have to worry about a job again after they come back from war. They should be taken care of for the rest of their lives, like these stupid politicians are.

Incorrect. I said first 5 years. Until they can quit being snowflakes about how screwed up they are in the head, they shouldn't intrude on the general population.

 

[MillerHighLife21]

Based on Twitter/Reddit I'm sticking to my original assumption that Trump is, in fact, a genius news magician.

 

[nytigerfan]

**** yourself you ungrateful piece of shit. I don't even care if you're kidding, grow the **** up and show respect

I like people who don't get PTSD.

 

[avengermg73]

Same argument that was made when the armed forces integrated... result? the argument was BS.

Same argument made for women ... result? the argument was BS.

I suspect the patter will repeat.

The numbers wouldn't support the change.

 

[Clems0nTiger]

Friendly reminder. Trump dodged the military because his feet hurt.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

The Military is not a social experiment.

Didn't say it was a social experiment. I wasn't really going to comment on the thread because I knew how it was going to go, and I am bored with all this transgender stuff.

I think if someone can do the job then they should be allowed to do it. Performance matters and not everyone is on the front lines in a war. I think this is discrimination, but I can see both sides of the issue and honestly don't have strong feelings either way. I certainly don't feel sex change operations should be on the dime of the US taxpayer if that is part of the concern.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

Friendly reminder. Trump dodged the military because his feet hurt.

Your feet tend to hurt when you're up to your knees in bullshit.

 

[Clems0nTiger]

Your feet tend to hurt when you're up to your knees in bullshit.

Don't forget, McCain isn't a hero because he got caught. Your cock sucking is fun to watch.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

Don't forget, McCain isn't a hero because he got caught. Your cock sucking is fun to watch.

? I believe you have me confused with someone else or you didn't understand my response.

 

[hopefultiger13]

I give Trump a solid "Mission Accomplished" for this tweet. It's pretty hard to convince me that Trump actually gives a crap about transgenders in the military on way or the other. BUT Trump is a master at manipulating people. This statement is bound to fire up his base who are very worried about the LBGT community and their rights as well as the liberals who rush to defend those folks. That's exactly what he wants...

Trump: "Hey guys, watch me stick it to those transsexual bastards, those weirdos aren't like US so fark em!"

Trump's Snowflake base: "Hell yeah, fark those folks. Let's MAGA by kicking trannies out of the military. If they get too close, we might catch whatever makes them weird"

Libtards: "OMG the sky is falling. Those poor people!! Everyone yell and run around like crazy"

Result: Everyone is distracted while the Healthcare fight and Russia investigation is going on. Trump smiles b/c Americans are stupid.

 

[Clems0nTiger]

? I believe you have me confused with someone else or you didn't understand my response.

Ah, my bad, thought you were defending him skipping out because Vietnam was bullshit.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

Ah, my bad, thought you were defending him skipping out because Vietnam was bullshit.

Me defend Trump? Whoa that's a good one! My point is that he is so full of shit .....

 

[hopefultiger13]

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The numbers wouldn't support the change.

EXACTLY the same... some old white guy says no (insert reason here).

Now don't get me wrong, you wanna transition, IMHO, that's a choice you make and the taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill. But if you want to server and can, then you should be able to.

 

[avengermg73]

EXACTLY the same... some old white guy says no (insert reason here).

Now don't get me wrong, you wanna transition, IMHO, that's a choice you make and the taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill. But if you want to server and can, then you should be able to.

Thank you for keeping this discussion alive.

The Army has to worry about readiness and someone to want to change their identity takes years. So basically you are taking Soldiers out of being able to perform their duties.

The military doesn't allow people who are to short/tall fat/skinny due to the physical demand that it takes on people's bodies. First and foremost you have to be able to fight in war. It doesn't matter if you are a cook, admin clerk, infantry, or whatever. Survive on the battlefield and defeat the enemy. It's not PC because killing someone or seeing your Battle Buddy getting killed takes a deep toll on you mentally. So to have a person that is already mentally confused makes zero sense. No one has a right to serve if they are not capable and why systems are in place to take the best qualified.

It is easy to say that everyone should be able to serve but do you have the burden that Commanders/ Command teams have to ensure that you bring everyone home safe and back to their families? No you don't.

You don't see the constraints that it puts on the readiness of a unit.

Opinions like yours put lives at greater risk.

How do I know all of this? 24 years of service from PVT to Sergeant Major that currently works at DA level on readiness. But hey, you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

I do agree everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, but don't let the smooth taste fool you, the military isn't for everyone that wants to serve.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Thank you for keeping this discussion alive.

The Army has to worry about readiness and someone to want to change their identity takes years. So basically you are taking Soldiers out of being able to perform their duties.

The military doesn't allow people who are to short/tall fat/skinny due to the physical demand that it takes on people's bodies. First and foremost you have to be able to fight in war. It doesn't matter if you are a cook, admin clerk, infantry, or whatever. Survive on the battlefield and defeat the enemy. It's not PC because killing someone or seeing your Battle Buddy getting killed takes a deep toll on you mentally. So to have a person that is already mentally confused makes zero sense. No one has a right to serve if they are not capable and why systems are in place to take the best qualified.

It is easy to say that everyone should be able to serve but do you have the burden that Commanders/ Command teams have to ensure that you bring everyone home safe and back to their families? No you don't.

You don't see the constraints that it puts on the readiness of a unit.

Opinions like yours put lives at greater risk.

How do I know all of this? 24 years of service from PVT to Sergeant Major that currently works at DA level on readiness. But hey, you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

I do agree everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, but don't let the smooth taste fool you, the military isn't for everyone that wants to serve.

First of all, thank you for your service. That's a lot of your life putting your country ahead of yourself. I for one really appreciate your and your family's sacrifice.

We agree totally on the part that you are talking about. If you can't get into the armed forces (for whatever reason), then you can't serve. If you become incapacitated to the point where you are a liability, you can't serve. When a person starts effecting the readiness of their unit, they HAVE to go. I totally get that.

If a person is trans, I view that the same as skin color, hair color, ethnicity, and gender (ie irrelevant). However, if they are taking a drug cocktail or having treatment that preclude them performing THEN we are talking about a different thing entirely. It's the same as being too short/tall/fat/skinny... or just freaking section 8. You can't serve.

My point is that just because a person is trans, they shouldn't be singled out as being unfit to serve. IF they have ANYTHING (whether it's related to being trans or not) that disqualifies them, then they absolutely shouldn't be allowed to serve (just like everyone else).

This brings me back to the original point. When the armed forces were integrated, we heard a bunch of people talk about how this would destroy our military. That transition certainly wasn't absolutely smooth, but we are a better military for it now. BUT .. African Americans with flat feet didn't get a free pass into the service. They were disqualified just like the white folks. SAME THING here.

 

[avengermg73]

First of all, thank you for your service. That's a lot of your life putting your country ahead of yourself. I for one really appreciate your and your family's sacrifice.

We agree totally on the part that you are talking about. If you can't get into the armed forces (for whatever reason), then you can't serve. If you become incapacitated to the point where you are a liability, you can't serve. When a person starts effecting the readiness of their unit, they HAVE to go. I totally get that.

If a person is trans, I view that the same as skin color, hair color, ethnicity, and gender (ie irrelevant). However, if they are taking a drug cocktail or having treatment that preclude them performing THEN we are talking about a different thing entirely. It's the same as being too short/tall/fat/skinny... or just freaking section 8. You can't serve.

My point is that just because a person is trans, they shouldn't be singled out as being unfit to serve. IF they have ANYTHING (whether it's related to being trans or not) that disqualifies them, then they absolutely shouldn't be allowed to serve (just like everyone else).

This brings me back to the original point. When the armed forces were integrated, we heard a bunch of people talk about how this would destroy our military. That transition certainly wasn't absolutely smooth, but we are a better military for it now. BUT .. African Americans with flat feet didn't get a free pass into the service. They were disqualified just like the white folks. SAME THING here.

See some common ground.

If those that identify as transgender have the treatment before they enter service, then let them serve. It is a huge burden on Commands and readiness if transitioning during service.

 

[FLaw47]

See some common ground.

If those that identify as transgender have the treatment before they enter service, then let them serve. It is a huge burden on Commands and readiness if transitioning during service.

Not everyone has gender reassignment surgery, either. Do you feel that all pre-op trans individuals should be excluded? Honestly asking, couldn't quite tell from your posts.

 

[avengermg73]

My opinion is that if a Soldier currently serving wants to identify as the opposite sex they should be discharged. This is due to the standards for male/female in regards to housing, bathroom, and APFT standards.

I have provided quantifiable evidence in other post as to this position. There is an overwhelming majority in the military that supports the POTUS position because people claim equality but in the military their will not be equality if those that claim transgender will not and cannot be held to the same standards of a person that is SCIENTIFICALLY/ BIOLOGICAL a male or female.

28 Soldiers in the Army identified to Human Resource Command (data from 27 June) to be Transgender and wanted to go through gender changing treatment. This is 28 out of 476,000 Soldiers (active duty) currently serving. If you were a CEO and have to burden the health, welfare, morale and day to day lives of that included housing and having standards that would not be equal to the other 475,972 people; what would you do? Piss off the 28 or 475,972?

All Soldiers deserve to be treated with dignity and respect but to push an agenda that a vast majority doesn't approve and affects the readiness of a unit is ridiculous.

There is enough issues with our readiness as it is and to add another unnecessary political policy in place just decreases the strength of of force.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

My opinion is that if a Soldier currently serving wants to identify as the opposite sex they should be discharged. This is due to the standards for male/female in regards to housing, bathroom, and APFT standards.

I have provided quantifiable evidence in other post as to this position. There is an overwhelming majority in the military that supports the POTUS position because people claim equality but in the military their will not be equality if those that claim transgender will not and cannot be held to the same standards of a person that is SCIENTIFICALLY/ BIOLOGICAL a male or female.

28 Soldiers in the Army identified to Human Resource Command (data from 27 June) to be Transgender and wanted to go through gender changing treatment. This is 28 out of 476,000 Soldiers (active duty) currently serving. If you were a CEO and have to burden the health, welfare, morale and day to day lives of that included housing and having standards that would not be equal to the other 475,972 people; what would you do? Piss off the 28 or 475,972?

All Soldiers deserve to be treated with dignity and respect but to push an agenda that a vast majority doesn't approve and affects the readiness of a unit is ridiculous.

There is enough issues with our readiness as it is and to add another unnecessary political policy in place just decreases the strength of of force.

All great points. I spoke with an ex marine that I worked with and he brought up the point that soldiers are naked in front of each other all the time and wondered how the transgender folks would feel.

 

[avengermg73]

All great points. I spoke with an ex marine that I worked with and he brought up the point that soldiers are naked in front of each other all the time and wondered how the transgender folks would feel.

Thank you for your input as well.

Where does privacy stop for an individual? Where does the rights stop for the 475,000 stop to appease 28?

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

Thank you for your input as well.

Where does privacy stop for an individual? Where does the rights stop for the 475,000 stop to appease 28?

Like I stated earlier I am a bit torn by the transgender issues especially with the military. I just feel everyone should be treated with respect and dignity as you stated as well. I don't understand how they feel, but everyone is different. I imagine their lives have been difficult with the inner struggles that have apparently had pretty much for most of their lives.

We may disagree on many issues politically, but please know that I appreciate and respect your service to our country.