OT - New Lockdowns/curfews/restrictions

[adgjunior]

Mask usage (and mandated usage) is at its highest rate ever, and so is the infection rate. Masks give folks a false sense of security. Folks are trying to live their normal lives and putting on a face cloth. Sorry, but copperfit isn't a medical grade filter and neither is that company selling masks made last years bathing suites because of easy breathability.

The mask studies are deeply flawed because they use medical grade PPE and usage in contained environments with trained people. Its not based on normal utilization by the general population. Its a false extrapolation. Tobacco companies did the same type of studies and it cost them billions in lawsuits. Masks don't hurt, but they aren't a reason to go Christmas shopping in crowded malls. If you are around people, you are at risk.

I think the bolded is a fair take, and I say that as a mask wearer.

Masks are a tool that lower the chance of transmission - not remove it. The more tools used (mask, 6 foot distance, less people, etc) the lower the probability of spread. Folks in the safety world call it "defense in depth". The more layers, the greater chance of nothing happening. Obviously, staying at home is the greatest defense (hence lockdowns), but carries a huge price for economics, mental health, education, etc. It's like driving. If you wear your seat belt, drive the speed limit, follow all traffic laws, reduce distractions, and travel during non-peak hours, your chance of having a wreck causing a fatality are greatly reduced. Every time you remove one of these factors, the probability rises. Remove all of them and the driver is a risk to themselves and others.

Ultimately, we have learned that America simply isn't wired to handle a pandemic, especially one that has been so politicized on every front. Our rugged, American individualistic way of life is too ingrained in us to make long-term sacrifices that at times seem like we are losing freedoms. We just don't like being told what to do. Also, we aren't structured with our diverse population and vastness to have a "national strategy" that is fair. Basically, NYC can't be treated like rural SC.

This has been incredibly stressful on everyone, but I couldn't imagine being a political leader (Governor, Mayor, City Council, School Board, etc) during these times. These folks are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. I don't know the answer, but I'm ready for it to be over!

 

[adgjunior]

Mask may help but they don't stop the spread. For the most part, people are getting this from people they are close to. Remember "within 6 feet for 15 mins." Folks aren't get this from Publix, Walmart or Lowes. They are getting it from socializing at bar, work, church, parties etc.

Bingo.

I have an employee that started showing symptoms Sunday after Thanksgiving. He had a rough first week (fatigue, aches, slight cough), but seemed to be better the next Sunday. 3 days later (Wednesday) his fever spikes to 101, he could hardly breathe, so he goes to the hospital and is diagnosed with COVID pneumonia. His last 5 days have been hell. He is 69, but in great health overall (eats right, exercises). He texted me this morning and said "this virus has given me a new perspective on living. it's the worst pain I've ever experienced". I think he'll beat it, but I don't that for sure. His crime? Spending Thanksgiving with his extended family. The assumption is someone there was asymptomatic.

It has certainly made me more aware of my choices, and I've been pretty conservative anyway. When it hits close and is severe, it is eye-opening.

 

[enctigger]

I'm just not sure the effectiveness of masks, although I wear one out of courtesy.

This true the masks people are wearing around don't stop virus transmission.

Mask usage (and mandated usage) is at its highest rate ever, and so is the infection rate. Masks give folks a false sense of security. Folks are trying to live their normal lives and putting on a face cloth. Sorry, but copperfit isn't a medical grade filter and neither is that company selling masks made last years bathing suites because of easy breathability.

The mask studies are deeply flawed because they use medical grade PPE and usage in contained environments with trained people. Its not based on normal utilization by the general population. Its a false extrapolation. Tobacco companies did the same type of studies and it cost them billions in lawsuits. Masks don't hurt, but they aren't a reason to go Christmas shopping in crowded malls. If you are around people, you are at risk.

This is true & a good explanation. These weak ass masks don't stop virus transmission. It is just a tool for social conditioning.

 

[GoodWord28]

Correct me if I am wrong but the estimates for the flu for death in the US is 120000 yearly X 10 would be 1.2 million

You are wrong. It’s 60K on the high end.

Annually, up to 400K flu patients require hospitalization. There have been well Over 1M hospitalizations for covid in the US.

Literally, in my county in the Atlanta suburbs right now, three of my local hospitals are juggling patient intake. Some heart attack patients are being told to go to a different hospital.

 

[Little Lebowski Urban Achiever]

You are wrong. It’s 60K on the high end.

Annually, up to 400K flu patients require hospitalization. There have been well Over 1M hospitalizations for covid in the US.

Literally, in my county in the Atlanta suburbs right now, three of my local hospitals are juggling patient intake. Some heart attack patients are being told to go to a different hospital.

ok we heard you the first time on the scary ER diversion. The fact is ER diversion is very common. Happens almost every day even without Covid. One of the reasons it’s worse right now is because fearmongers like you are causing people to run to the ER to get tested every time they sneeze. My friend is an ER PA and that’s pretty much all she does - swab assymptomatic noses. What a great use of a highly trained and skilled medical provider.

I agree with an earlier poster that the US was ill equipped for the virus. But that was not because of the people. It was because the virus is politicized and weaponized by the media and politicians. Fear is being used to change the level of freedom people are willing to accept. I believe some people
in power hope this is a permanent change.

As far as the masks go, real medical grade PPE when properly worn is quite effective. But it is not practical for people to wear in everyday life. These ridiculous cloth things are a symbol of the social changes. If they had any real effect the CDC and that moron FAUCI would have mandated them long ago. But now they are mandated because of public shaming.

 

[jimbob1019]

Still wondering when people will realize that no one is gonna live forever & that we all have an expiration date...
Usually the expiration date is ushered in by some sickness, disease, or tragedy...most of us don't just go peacefully in our sleep...
Sad but true...

 

[Little Lebowski Urban Achiever]

Indeed. Which is why the Hopkins study showed that the overall mortality in the US has not changed due to COVID. Those 300k that fearmongerers keep reminding us about would, statistically, have died of something else (40% were in nursing homes).

But those facts don’t fit the social agenda. Which is why the Hopkins study was removed from their website.

 

[GoodWord28]

ok we heard you the first time on the scary ER diversion. The fact is ER diversion is very common. Happens almost every day even without Covid. One of the reasons it’s worse right now is because fearmongers like you are causing people to run to the ER to get tested every time they sneeze. My friend is an ER PA and that’s pretty much all she does - swab assymptomatic noses. What a great use of a highly trained and skilled medical provider.

I agree with an earlier poster that the US was ill equipped for the virus. But that was not because of the people. It was because the virus is politicized and weaponized by the media and politicians. Fear is being used to change the level of freedom people are willing to accept. I believe some people
in power hope this is a permanent change.

As far as the masks go, real medical grade PPE when properly worn is quite effective. But it is not practical for people to wear in everyday life. These ridiculous cloth things are a symbol of the social changes. If they had any real effect the CDC and that moron FAUCI would have mandated them long ago. But now they are mandated because of public shaming.

I’m not reading all of that puffery

 

[NewryMillPerson]

Since I’m stuck in DC and surrounded by nut jobs, I’ll rant a bit here, where most of you seem somewhat reasonable in comparison.

I’ll preface this by saying I am a physician, though not an expert on this virus. Also, I’m sorry for anyone that has been directly affected by the disease. Please do not make this post personal. It is meant to be a macroscopic view on the topic. Also, please don’t make replies overly political, though politicians in general are much to blame for this situation.

That said, I can’t believe there are more lockdowns coming. Didn’t we learn anything from the previous ones? They will kill our livelihoods but not the virus.

I’m not usually a conspiracy theorist but this is either a terrible joke, or an experiment in social control.

First, we were told the lockdowns would end the virus. That was a lie. Then we were told they would slow it. That was true but the cost of the lockdowns was never elucidated to the public. We still don’t know the extent of the damage done by the previous rounds. Economic hardship, mental anguish, substance abuse, child mal-development, etc have skyrocketed, but nobody is telling us how much.

The most non-refutable excuse they stuck with for previous lockdowns was to protect the frontline workers. Those workers have an amazing supply of PPE now and the transmission rate when wearing it is incredibly low. And more importantly, frontline workers and our most vulnerable populations will imminently be vaccinated with what appears to be an extremely effective vaccine.

So what reason is there for the current lockdowns happening around the country. Will they even let us travel to see loved ones for the holidays? I can’t imagine the hardship caused if this trend continues.

Be glad most of you live in SC, where sensibility has largely prevailed, and “shockingly” without a major change in the trajectory in the virus. I hope it stays that way.

Can I do a citizens revocation of your medical license?

 

[nytigerfan]

Mask usage (and mandated usage) is at its highest rate ever, and so is the infection rate. Masks give folks a false sense of security. Folks are trying to live their normal lives and putting on a face cloth. Sorry, but copperfit isn't a medical grade filter and neither is that company selling masks made last years bathing suites because of easy breathability.

The mask studies are deeply flawed because they use medical grade PPE and usage in contained environments with trained people. Its not based on normal utilization by the general population. Its a false extrapolation. Tobacco companies did the same type of studies and it cost them billions in lawsuits. Masks don't hurt, but they aren't a reason to go Christmas shopping in crowded malls. If you are around people, you are at risk.

So a couple of points...

1. Surgeons always have worn masks, whether cloth or paper or whatever. There must be a reason no?

2. Kansas provides some good data. They mandated masks statewide but allowed counties to opt out. The counties that opted out saw a 100% increase in cases. The ones that opted in saw a decrease in cases. It should be noted also that the ones who enforced the masks were the ones that had the biggest covid outbreaks. South Korea and Japan are also good case studies.

Masks work. Wear masks and shut downs are not necessary.

 

[NewryMillPerson]

Is there an "economic consequence" only when a business is closed? What about the lost productivity of a dead worker?

 

[nytigerfan]

ok we heard you the first time on the scary ER diversion. The fact is ER diversion is very common. Happens almost every day even without Covid. One of the reasons it’s worse right now is because fearmongers like you are causing people to run to the ER to get tested every time they sneeze. My friend is an ER PA and that’s pretty much all she does - swab assymptomatic noses. What a great use of a highly trained and skilled medical provider.

I agree with an earlier poster that the US was ill equipped for the virus. But that was not because of the people. It was because the virus is politicized and weaponized by the media and politicians. Fear is being used to change the level of freedom people are willing to accept. I believe some people
in power hope this is a permanent change.

As far as the masks go, real medical grade PPE when properly worn is quite effective. But it is not practical for people to wear in everyday life. These ridiculous cloth things are a symbol of the social changes. If they had any real effect the CDC and that moron FAUCI would have mandated them long ago. But now they are mandated because of public shaming.

Where do you work as a doctor? I just want to be sure NEVER TO ****ING GO THERE.

 

[Nobarscanholdme]

So you actually call what happened earlier a real lockdown? 🤔
A true lockdown is what happened in countries like New Zealand and others where they are now reporting no cases.
I am going to hate to see this country during a real mandatory lockdown then.

You mean like Sweden?

 

[DaBadass]

This has never been about the virus. It’s about the globalist elites controlling every aspect of our life. They want us to be a bunch of faceless consumers who but everything online. That is where we’re headed. Wake up

 

[Nobarscanholdme]

Give it up. You are arguing with a liberal who thinks they are smarter than you (even though you are the doctor) and it is their job to save us from ourselves by restricting our options.

A liberal post always includes words such as "I think" and "I recall" but by the end of the rant, those words are treated as facts that you are stupid if you don't agree with.

A liberal post also almost always includes "the science".

 

[Nobarscanholdme]

Is there an "economic consequence" only when a business is closed? What about the lost productivity of a dead worker?

We don't shut down businesses for lost productivity from dead workers from cancer, heart disease etc.

 

[Little Lebowski Urban Achiever]

Where do you work as a doctor? I just want to be sure NEVER TO ****ING GO THERE.

Haha it’s interesting that those agreeing with me are doctors and others that are citing evidence. Those like you that don’t just resort to personal attacks

 

[NewryMillPerson]

We don't shut down businesses for lost productivity from dead workers from cancer, heart disease etc.

do you get heart disease or cancer from your coworker?

 

[NewryMillPerson]

Haha it’s interesting that those agreeing with me are doctors and others that are citing evidence. Those like you that don’t just resort to personal attacks

I've been sending your posts to doctors and they think you're a complete psychopath.

 

[Nobarscanholdme]

Haha it’s interesting that those agreeing with me are doctors and others that are citing evidence. Those like you that don’t just resort to personal attacks

Typical liberalism. They know what's best for you, and ridicule if u disagree.

 

[Little Lebowski Urban Achiever]

I've been sending your posts to doctors and they think you're a complete psychopath.

I’d welcome their opinions on this thread. Your personal attacks without substance don’t contribute anything

 

[Nobarscanholdme]

do you get heart disease or cancer from your coworker?

Why are the only experts voices heard are those of the scientists? What about the economists and psychologists?

Oh, I agree that u cant get heart disease and cancer from your co worker. We know who it affects (by and large), those folks need to stay in the house and shelter in place. No reason whatsoever for an at risk person to have to leave the house. Food, meds etc can all be delivered to front door.

The other 99% need to live their lives.

 

[thebooyaa]

I have worked in many hospitals, and they are almost always at full capacity. This is nothing new

I agree... have worked in many and everyone had patients stuck at admission, some placed in hall ways, ect.... always a sore of frustration

 

[gcsoccer16]

New Zealand is a small island that has had completely closed borders for 8 months. That is impossible for our country. They cannot be used for comparison.

You bring way to much intelligence and real life experience for some on this board.

 

[gcsoccer16]

Honestly if everyone would just wear masks and be somewhat responsible, everything would be fine. Do the things you have to do and don't do the things that you don't have to do.

Everyone in my family has been to doctors, dentists, haircuts, etc in the last six months. I have one kid in full time school and one in full time day care. I go to the office. We DON'T go to indoor restaurants or go to indoor parties that we are invited to.

Edit: to be fair I have eaten in a few restaurants and flown, but those were business trips and dinners that I felt I needed to do.

Unless you wear a mask in your home with your family you aren't helping much. Do you wear a mask in your home around your family? Keep thinking the masks will keep it from spreading with you taking the evening off from wearing ur mask. Way to be all in.

 

[BHSRebels89]

I have worked in many hospitals, and they are almost always at full capacity. This is nothing new

This is kinda how they make $$$$, right? U less your local hospital is ran by a charity

 

[90Orange]

I’d welcome their opinions on this thread. Your personal attacks without substance don’t contribute anything

I’m personal friends with 4 physicians and three agree with you. The 4th skirts the issue. Neither agrees or disagres

 

[gcsoccer16]

So a couple of points...

1. Surgeons always have worn masks, whether cloth or paper or whatever. There must be a reason no?

2. Kansas provides some good data. They mandated masks statewide but allowed counties to opt out. The counties that opted out saw a 100% increase in cases. The ones that opted in saw a decrease in cases. It should be noted also that the ones who enforced the masks were the ones that had the biggest covid outbreaks. South Korea and Japan are also good case studies.

Masks work. Wear masks and shut downs are not necessary.

You make horrible comparisons. Why do you keep using the "why do surgeons wear masks". Those are trained pofessionals who know how to properly wear and dispose of n95 masks.

 

[jeffcoat]

95% of the people I see at the grocery, work, restaurants, stores, etc are wearing masks. I know that if thats happening in SC its probably happening up north also. People are wearing masks, clearly there's more to it than just mask virtue signaling

I live in "crazy South Carolina" and I can't tell you the last time I have seen someone NOT wear a mask out in public places. Where do you see people not wearing them?

I'm just not sure the effectiveness of masks, although I wear one out of courtesy.

Wow. Where do you guys live. I live in rural Lexington county, outside of Pelion. I'd say at the local IGA it is probaby 45%-50% wearing masks and it is totally random. Just as many elderly not wearing masks as anybody else. I guess maybe in the cities that have mask policies it is different, but not out here. I still wear a mask everywhere I go, but take it off when I'm eating, and that is about it. I also wash my hands & arms & face with an alcohol based disinfectant any time I have potentially been exposed.

 

[jeffcoat]

Mask may help but they don't stop the spread. For the most part, people are getting this from people they are close tto. Remember "within 6 feet for 15 mins." Folks aren't get this from Publix, Walmart or Lowes. They are getting it from socializing at bar, work, church, parties etc.

BLUF: Life is risky. Get busy living or get busy dying. You take your chances and He tells you when your time is up.

Side Note: My eldery and feeble Mother in Law passed away about 8 days ago (Sat). Best we can tell, she fell in the bathroom in the early hours of the morning the previous Thursday. She hit her head and never regained conscience. Doc's first assessment: COVID. She had no symptoms and tested negative. I'll be interested to see the death certificate.

Sorry for your loss. My mom passed away the same way a couple years ago.

 

[Esso Porch]

You make horrible comparisons. Why do you keep using the "why do surgeons wear masks". Those are trained pofessionals who know how to properly wear and dispose of n95 masks.

Surgeons don’t typically wear N95 masks in the operating room. Closed air circulation gear is worn during joint replacements

 

[Natty4Life]

Physician here. Agree.

There are hotspots of stress to hospitals to be sure. Most hospitals are fine so far. To my knowledge, no extra emergency temporary hospital is in use anywhere- several were set up back in the spring, not used, and then take down.

Some epidemiologists at Stanford and Oxford agree with the OP largely. Economic lockdowns per se have never been used for a pandemic. Avoiding large gatherings and unnecessary gatherings and travel and social distancing and masks as much as possible will help mitigate. But shutdowns or lockdowns that bust the economy and so many lives is not a good idea.

Lockdowns are likely killing several people(many children) for each one life lost to COVID-19(mostly elderly). Every death at any age is tragic-but for context. Many problems here. But starvation will likely double worldwide due to reduced and shutdown economic activity and loss. Perhaps 100 million lives lost and many children. Supply line, supply chains, donations, altered farming, etc worldwide is a problem. I have seen a UN estimate that there will be 100 lives lost worldwide for each 1 life saved by COVID-19 mitigation efforts.

The governors won't discuss that aspect on top of the local misery and loss.

This!
Hate the term “front line” worker because it’s our job. “Front lines” are for soldiers fighting wars against people trying to kill them.
10 years in this career and I have seen and heard of more suicides (had one yesterday) and ODs this year than ANY in my career.
Our reaction to the virus is destroying way more lives than the less than 2% CFR.

 

[Brad29067]

Anyone live in the Asheville area? Most restaurants and activities still available? Heading up this Friday. Had tickets to Biltmore but they refunded me due to restrictions. Thanks in advance guys.

 

[gcsoccer16]

I’d welcome their opinions on this thread. Your personal attacks without substance don’t contribute anything

Surgeons don’t typically wear N95 masks in the operating room. Closed air circulation gear is worn during joint replacements

Maybe that's what we need. We should all wear those if we want to get serious @nytigerfan

 

[NotLarryWilliams]

Indeed. Which is why the Hopkins study showed that the overall mortality in the US has not changed due to COVID. Those 300k that fearmongerers keep reminding us about would, statistically, have died of something else (40% were in nursing homes).

But those facts don’t fit the social agenda. Which is why the Hopkins study was removed from their website.

This is what I have been asking and saying for months now. I want to see a year over year comparison of total deaths from 3/2019-11/2019 compared to the same time frame in 2020. I would also love to see data on some of the more common killers in this country (cardiovascular disease, cancer, etc). Will those numbers be 300k greater in total numbers? Will the numbers for the other disease states show a statistically significant lower death rate?

 

[Dutch_Peacheater]

Since I’m stuck in DC and surrounded by nut jobs, I’ll rant a bit here, where most of you seem somewhat reasonable in comparison.

I’ll preface this by saying I am a physician, though not an expert on this virus. Also, I’m sorry for anyone that has been directly affected by the disease. Please do not make this post personal. It is meant to be a macroscopic view on the topic. Also, please don’t make replies overly political, though politicians in general are much to blame for this situation.

That said, I can’t believe there are more lockdowns coming. Didn’t we learn anything from the previous ones? They will kill our livelihoods but not the virus.

I’m not usually a conspiracy theorist but this is either a terrible joke, or an experiment in social control.

First, we were told the lockdowns would end the virus. That was a lie. Then we were told they would slow it. That was true but the cost of the lockdowns was never elucidated to the public. We still don’t know the extent of the damage done by the previous rounds. Economic hardship, mental anguish, substance abuse, child mal-development, etc have skyrocketed, but nobody is telling us how much.

The most non-refutable excuse they stuck with for previous lockdowns was to protect the frontline workers. Those workers have an amazing supply of PPE now and the transmission rate when wearing it is incredibly low. And more importantly, frontline workers and our most vulnerable populations will imminently be vaccinated with what appears to be an extremely effective vaccine.

So what reason is there for the current lockdowns happening around the country. Will they even let us travel to see loved ones for the holidays? I can’t imagine the hardship caused if this trend continues.

Be glad most of you live in SC, where sensibility has largely prevailed, and “shockingly” without a major change in the trajectory in the virus. I hope it stays that way.

I am in Vegas right now. You have to have a reservation at every place you eat (I am guessing the rona doesn’t impact people that plan their meals). I am at Peppermill at this moment and stopped in to see if I could be added to the list. She actually had room for me now but I had to go wait outside for five minutes. How stupid is that?

 

[purple2]

I have worked in many hospitals, and they are almost always at full capacity. This is nothing new

you are correct....some hospitals close wings/floors to purposely be closer to "capacity" for financial reasons. i don't know if that is happening now or not.

 

[ForzaTigre]

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me who will shut down the country.

The answer: no one has that authority

 

[Mr Peter North]

Since I’m stuck in DC and surrounded by nut jobs, I’ll rant a bit here, where most of you seem somewhat reasonable in comparison.

I’ll preface this by saying I am a physician, though not an expert on this virus. Also, I’m sorry for anyone that has been directly affected by the disease. Please do not make this post personal. It is meant to be a macroscopic view on the topic. Also, please don’t make replies overly political, though politicians in general are much to blame for this situation.

That said, I can’t believe there are more lockdowns coming. Didn’t we learn anything from the previous ones? They will kill our livelihoods but not the virus.

I’m not usually a conspiracy theorist but this is either a terrible joke, or an experiment in social control.

First, we were told the lockdowns would end the virus. That was a lie. Then we were told they would slow it. That was true but the cost of the lockdowns was never elucidated to the public. We still don’t know the extent of the damage done by the previous rounds. Economic hardship, mental anguish, substance abuse, child mal-development, etc have skyrocketed, but nobody is telling us how much.

The most non-refutable excuse they stuck with for previous lockdowns was to protect the frontline workers. Those workers have an amazing supply of PPE now and the transmission rate when wearing it is incredibly low. And more importantly, frontline workers and our most vulnerable populations will imminently be vaccinated with what appears to be an extremely effective vaccine.

So what reason is there for the current lockdowns happening around the country. Will they even let us travel to see loved ones for the holidays? I can’t imagine the hardship caused if this trend continues.

Be glad most of you live in SC, where sensibility has largely prevailed, and “shockingly” without a major change in the trajectory in the virus. I hope it stays that way.

I think they are hoping to take pressure off of the ICU wards at many healthcare systems. That’s my best guess.

 

[TheValley91]

Do I need to come in here and get this shitty thread thrown to the Round Table where it belongs?