The blame has to go somewhere.

[Edistoplayer]

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

 

[Hambone83]

Please zap it but thank you for your service

 

[MorrisvilleTiger]

And I assume O'bummer was competent??? Morons everywhere

 

[TuesdayJ]

If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it.

 

[petegroove]

Thanks for your service, @Edistoplayer

 

[ArmyTiger27]

Good grief.

 

[tigerfan700]

Trump said the coronavirus would disappear in April. It’s April 4th has it disappeared yet?

 

[petegroove]

Trump said the coronavirus would disappear in April. It’s April 4th has it disappeared yet?

Come on, man. There’s 26 days remaining for him to be correct.

 

[Trading Tiger]

View embedded media

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

The blame does have to go somewhere, but you are off target. Trump was labeled a racist fear monger when he issued the travel ban WAY BACK IN JANUARY!! Now, the story is he didn't do enough.

The blame should be put on Cuomo and the other NYC people who were telling people to go celebrate in China Town.

 

[1Clemson]

View embedded media

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

Did the same in ‘92. I could not respect a president that essentially ducked when his country called. Now conservatives cheer for essentially the same low standard.

Remember, your service was to the country and constitution and is noble even if the leaders are not. Continue to defend the constitution and ideals of the nation not necessarily the demigod if the moment.

Welcome to the elite- those that have wrote the blank check.

 

[TigerCaper]

View embedded media

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

I will repeat my post from a week or two back as to my view of the blame.

Our country wildly and willfully ignored this risk early on and is still vastly underestimating it even now. Many in the USA have been way too confident that our systems (health and otherwise) and our citizenry somehow will deal with it better than other countries. China, Italy, etc. have said they are on a war footing for a reason. Why we cannot look at the experiences of other countries and learn from them is hard for me to understand.

Since early February at the latest, this country should have been on a war footing to keep the virus out by all means necessary (including no entrants except US citizens and even they should have had a forced 15-20 day quarantine on military bases), spent whatever resources were necessary to massively test and trace inside the country for any that escaped through the net, and should have been mass producing personal protection and medical equipment as if at total war. What would have been the downside other than maybe wasting a few tens of billions of dollars at the most for mostly equipment that could have been sold or given to poor parts of the USA?

It is the most egregious failure of leadership and judgment I have witnessed in my lifetime at every level of government (including both political parties), the medical and scientific community, the media, and academia. They have all failed their constituents on an unimaginable scale. How we can be in exactly the position of China 2 months ago (except it is worse because we are more mobile than China) is beyond ridiculous. We had the model for what would happen. We essentially repeated China's mistakes even with their example staring us in the face.

 

[TigerCaper]

View embedded media

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

On the blame game, here are my views on the mask situation that i posted on a different spread early this morning. Apologies for those of you who are seeing it twice but it was at the end of a long thread so maybe others can see it here and comment as to where/how I am wrong. I am probably spitting in the wind, but maybe someone somewhere can use some of this to help improve the situation somehow.

1. Neither the Administration nor 3M has taken control of allocation and distribution of masks which is presumably absolutely necessary in a pandemic. This needs to cease immediately. A reasonable and fair distribution with a nod first to US needs (I understand the point about all health care workers being equally important worldwide, but that is not reality or politically viable - take a look at the export prohibitions imposed by many other countries) and then worldwide needs and with distribution limited solely to health care providers is required. The free market with wholesalers/distributors controlling the allocation cannot prevail in a pandemic where people are willing to pay any price for potential life saving equipment. This is painfully obvious. All supplies within the USA in the hands of industry and distributors (and even individuals beyond 1 or 2 per person) should be requisitioned immediately. OSHA rules for non health workers can be relaxed temporarily to allow the non-health care industries to use the next best substitutes. The risk to non-health care workers of using the next best substitute obviously pales in comparison to the risk to health care workers using the next best substitute. Why is this not obvious to the various government entities and still an issue more than 2 months in?! This should have been done early February at the latest.

2. 3M has merely doubled their capacity during the pandemic. This may be the wise course from a business standpoint as otherwise they are stuck with the costs of reducing overcapacity at the end of the pandemic. But a private company's business concerns cannot control in a pandemic. Much like in WW2, the Administration must take control and force 3M and other companies capable of manufacturing masks (and everything else needed) to expand capacity dramatically as fast as humanly possible going all out as if this is total war. Why this was not done beginning in late January/early February is hard to understand but nevertheless is still critical today. There is no guarantee that the present mitigation tactics will work. We could have a continuing need or a renewed need in the fall. Next fall/winter could easily be a worse epidemic spike.

3. If we ramp up capacity and produce 10 billion masks too many, we lose a few billion dollars at most. We could sell them gradually until we get down to a billion or two as a reserve. I would presume they would be bought by every country in the world anyway to build their own reserves for a potential repeat of this pandemic. At 60-70 cents each, the net loss would be a few billion at worst. If we do not ramp up production, we could have dramatic loss of life that is unnecessary. We seem to still not be preparing for very real risks a few weeks or months out. We have plenty of empty factories in this country and 10 million (at least) newly unemployed workers. We have apparently the world leader as a domestic company (3M). Why are we not ramping up production 10 fold or more as fast as humanly possible? If this process had begun 2 months ago, how many masks would be rolling off the assembly lines by now? How many lives and how much money would we be saving now? We will likely spend/lose at least $5-10 trillion from this pandemic solely in the USA. What is a few billion more if we overproduce?

4. Why is someone like Bill Gates not named czar of pandemic response production much like South Carolinian (and former Clemson Trustee) James Byrnes was in charge of war production mobilization in WW2? Gates has experience running a very large, world-wide entity. He has the time. He knows as much about pandemics as anyone in the business world. He seems to care. I emailed our senators about this a couple weeks back but have received no response.

5. Hopefully someone somewhere in the government is asking these questions and making appropriate plans. Why is the media not constantly asking these questions?

 

[PontificatingUnifex]

On the blame game, here are my views on the mask situation that i posted on a different spread early this morning. Apologies for those of you who are seeing it twice but it was at the end of a long thread so maybe others can see it here and comment as to where/how I am wrong. I am probably spitting in the wind, but maybe someone somewhere can use some of this to help improve the situation somehow.

1. Neither the Administration nor 3M has taken control of allocation and distribution of masks which is presumably absolutely necessary in a pandemic. This needs to cease immediately. A reasonable and fair distribution with a nod first to US needs (I understand the point about all health care workers being equally important worldwide, but that is not reality or politically viable - take a look at the export prohibitions imposed by many other countries) and then worldwide needs and with distribution limited solely to health care providers is required. The free market with wholesalers/distributors controlling the allocation cannot prevail in a pandemic where people are willing to pay any price for potential life saving equipment. This is painfully obvious. All supplies within the USA in the hands of industry and distributors (and even individuals beyond 1 or 2 per person) should be requisitioned immediately. OSHA rules for non health workers can be relaxed temporarily to allow the non-health care industries to use the next best substitutes. The risk to non-health care workers of using the next best substitute obviously pales in comparison to the risk to health care workers using the next best substitute. Why is this not obvious to the various government entities and still an issue more than 2 months in?! This should have been done early February at the latest.

2. 3M has merely doubled their capacity during the pandemic. This may be the wise course from a business standpoint as otherwise they are stuck with the costs of reducing overcapacity at the end of the pandemic. But a private company's business concerns cannot control in a pandemic. Much like in WW2, the Administration must take control and force 3M and other companies capable of manufacturing masks (and everything else needed) to expand capacity dramatically as fast as humanly possible going all out as if this is total war. Why this was not done beginning in late January/early February is hard to understand but nevertheless is still critical today. There is no guarantee that the present mitigation tactics will work. We could have a continuing need or a renewed need in the fall. Next fall/winter could easily be a worse epidemic spike.

3. If we ramp up capacity and produce 10 billion masks too many, we lose a few billion dollars at most. We could sell them gradually until we get down to a billion or two as a reserve. I would presume they would be bought by every country in the world anyway to build their own reserves for a potential repeat of this pandemic. At 60-70 cents each, the net loss would be a few billion at worst. If we do not ramp up production, we could have dramatic loss of life that is unnecessary. We seem to still not be preparing for very real risks a few weeks or months out. We have plenty of empty factories in this country and 10 million (at least) newly unemployed workers. We have apparently the world leader as a domestic company (3M). Why are we not ramping up production 10 fold or more as fast as humanly possible? If this process had begun 2 months ago, how many masks would be rolling off the assembly lines by now? How many lives and how much money would we be saving now? We will likely spend/lose at least $5-10 trillion from this pandemic solely in the USA. What is a few billion more if we overproduce?

4. Why is someone like Bill Gates not named czar of pandemic response production much like South Carolinian (and former Clemson Trustee) James Byrnes was in charge of war production mobilization in WW2? Gates has experience running a very large, world-wide entity. He has the time. He knows as much about pandemics as anyone in the business world. He seems to care. I emailed our senators about this a couple weeks back but have received no response.

5. Hopefully someone somewhere in the government is asking these questions and making appropriate plans. Why is the media not constantly asking these questions?

Jared is on top of things, you know the guy who solved the Middle East problem...we good.

 

[petegroove]

medical and scientific community,

I don’t agree with blame here. There is some, sure, but the experts (epidemiologists, others at NIH and CDC) were mostly ignored. Even lower levels of the executive branch were ignored. Not sure acedemia can be blamed either, what were university scientists supposed to do that they didn’t?

 

[TheTacoDude]

View embedded media

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

Thank you for your service. I work with many active duty service members and am proud to witness the honor and integrity that permeates through those individuals as they perform their duty.

As proud as I am to witness the dedication and integrity of these service members... I am equally appalled by the dishonesty and selfish behavior of the man at the top.

Who can honestly look at the last three years of this man's lies, egotistical behaviors and outright/ undeniable failure to lead this country at the critical juncture of this pandemic and thinks to themselves "yup, we made a good choice, this is the right man for the job."

The cult of ignorance that stands up and unflinchingly rationalizes his words and deeds is beyond pathetic and quite terrifying. What would Trump have to do for the cult to stand up and say "that's wrong."

 

[TigerCaper]

I don’t agree with blame here. There is some, sure, but the experts (epidemiologists, others at NIH and CDC) were mostly ignored. Even lower levels of the executive branch were ignored. Not sure acedemia can be blamed either, what were university scientists supposed to do that they didn’t?

I would say less blame for the medical and scientific community for the reasons you mention and that they by nature often are not outspoken and frequently are introverted, but i personally witnessed some of them chastising and ridiculing as alarmist some of their colleagues who were raising the alarm back in January. They needed to provide education and needed to raise the alarms as loudly and with consensus as possible.

Our most knowledgeable folks on these issues are in academia; they should have been noisily raising the alarm on all levels. To be fair, some did tweet and there were some op-ed pieces.

However, for an issue this big, many should have been as noisy as possible and public health officials should have resigned in mass if they were ignored to raise the issue more loudly.

Here is an example of one who was very brave and assertive in her own way at great risk to her career..



I do get the feeling, however, that Dr. Fauci has to walk a thin line of not being too aggressive as he otherwise would be fired and that he is fearful what would happen if he were not on the task force.

I raised the alarm with everyone I knew but i have no scientific background. Those with proper credentials needed to be VERY forceful in this case IMO.

I was forceful and everyone at my work and in my family were bemused by it and thought I was obsessed and a little crazy - until two weeks ago. But they were also prepared.

 

[thebooyaa]

I guess every country screwed this up because no one was prepared. But you are doing a good job at pointing the finger so I guess you got that going for you.

 

[BigPapaWhit]

And I assume O'bummer was competent??? Morons everywhere

Both could be true.

 

[TigerCaper]

I guess every country screwed this up because no one was prepared. But you are doing a good job at pointing the finger so I guess you got that going for you.

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Iceland, etc. did not screw this up. They may be delaying the inevitable (time will tell), but to date they were prudent.

Eric Ding, Laurie Garrett, Devi Sridnar, Scott Gottlieb and others pointed out the superior responses of these countries and begged for massive testing and tracing though all of February at least. They were ignored. Go back and look at their tweets and Gottlieb's op-ed pieces. I followed them daily for weeks as they warned us and they were ignored. It was like watching the greatest train wreck ever in slow motion with engineers speeding up and refusing to acknowledge the train was off the tracks. Those who ignored them and thought they knew better have harmed the country immeasurably and should be held accountable IMO.

 

[thebooyaa]

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Iceland, etc. did not screw this up. They may be delaying the inevitable (time will tell), but to date they were prudent.

Eric Ding, Laurie Garrett, Devi Sridnar, Scott Gottlieb and others pointed out the superior responses of these countries and begged for massive testing and tracing though all of February at least. They were ignored. Go back and look at their tweets and Gottlieb's op-ed pieces. I followed them daily for weeks as they warned us and they were ignored. It was like watching the greatest train wreck ever in slow motion with engineers speeding up and refusing to acknowledge the train was off the tracks. Those who ignored them and thought they knew better have harmed the country immeasurably and should be held accountable IMO.

So the largest “country “ you have on your list is South Korea of 55 million. Their mortality is about 1.8% but the key here is they tested a higher percentage of the popular than all but one country (Bahrain) so of course this number can not be compared to most. Our mortality rate is 2.5% which is actually artificially high since we have tested ONLY .3% of the population vs Korea’s 5.5%.
As for the other countries, those are city states and a little easier to control than 327 MILLION people in the US.
People need to quit complaining and join together instead of whining and pointing fingers.

 

[1Clemson]

So the largest “country “ you have on your list is South Korea of 55 million. Their mortality is about 1.8% but the key here is they tested a higher percentage of the popular than all but one country (Bahrain) so of course this number can not be compared to most. Our mortality rate is 2.5% which is actually artificially high since we have tested ONLY .3% of the population vs Korea’s 5.5%.
As for the other countries, those are city states and a little easier to control than 327 MILLION people in the US.
People need to quit complaining and join together instead of whining and pointing fingers.

We NEED an actual leader. Sadly, Not going to happen.

 

[thebooyaa]

Ok, sure somebody else would have done a better kid, keep telling yourself that. Not taking up for the guy but NOBODY was ready for this. SMH. Sometimes ignorance (hatred) is bliss.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

View embedded media

I've been an TI subscriber since 2010 the worst season in the past 20 years. If my post is zapped I will no longer be an TI subscriber. President Trump has down played this situation an he deserves the blame for it. Our loved ones are dying because of it. All i want from my government is honestly.

Yesterday was my last day serving in the the United States Army. I couldn't bring myself to serving under an incompetent president. If this is me last post so be it but the truth needs to be heard. This isn't a political thread this is a thread where human lives matter and I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

Thank you for your service sir!

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

And I assume O'bummer was competent??? Morons everywhere

I see some of Amy's relatives are posting. I see the resemblance of ignorance and immaturity.

 

[clemsontyger04]

The blame does have to go somewhere, but you are off target. Trump was labeled a racist fear monger when he issued the travel ban WAY BACK IN JANUARY!! Now, the story is he didn't do enough.

The blame should be put on Cuomo and the other NYC people who were telling people to go celebrate in China Town.

First off your points are completely wrong.

The airlines had already stopped travel. Trump was late because he didnt respect the seriousness of the virus. Which he has done repeatedly even when people in this country are dying.

The second point is wrong because it was Deblasio not Cuomo. Cuomo frankly has been the type of leader this country has needed in this time of crisis.

 

[tgrjoe71]

In my opinion, our President can't get out of his own way most of the time because his first priority is to tell everyone what a great job he is doing. He seems overly concerned that relaying what the experts predict we're in for will somehow make him look like he doesn't have control of the situation. At least to me, our president doesn't exude leadership qualities or seem to be of above average overall intelligence. It doesn't seem (again to me) like he has absolute trust or confidence in anyone in his administration or his close inner circle of appointees to various committees and such. A man's moral fiber is on display in times of serious trouble, but unfortunately I am afraid President Trump comes up short is this area as well.

 

[TheTacoDude]

Ok, sure somebody else would have done a better kid, keep telling yourself that. Not taking up for the guy but NOBODY was ready for this. SMH. Sometimes ignorance (hatred) is bliss.

This was easy to see coming but when leadership fires the pandemic response leadership that existed for this and places more credence in a foxnews commentator then in intelligence reports based on real and factual analysis then this is what we get.

The man at top squandered a month and a half worth of action because he politiced it as a democratic hoax.

The man has no ethics and zero ability to listen to factual and reasoned analysis on any topic. But the cult of sheep will circle around and support him to no end.

Open up your eyes.

 

[TigerCaper]

So the largest “country “ you have on your list is South Korea of 55 million. Their mortality is about 1.8% but the key here is they tested a higher percentage of the popular than all but one country (Bahrain) so of course this number can not be compared to most. Our mortality rate is 2.5% which is actually artificially high since we have tested ONLY .3% of the population vs Korea’s 5.5%.
As for the other countries, those are city states and a little easier to control than 327 MILLION people in the US.
People need to quit complaining and join together instead of whining and pointing fingers.

Agreed we need to come together to solve the problem, but absolutely we must also hold accountable everyone who had the opportunity to avoid this. And we must especially not blindly trust those who failed to prevent the catastrophe - particularly on the very same problem they have failed at monumentally just weeks before. Can you tell me the national strategy even today other than "flatten the curve." What are the goals? How do we define success? Look at Scott Gottlieb's plan or the one on crushing the curve in the New England Journal of Medicine; those are a couple of viable plans - but private persons writing on their own time seem to have a more complete, coherent strategy than our government!

It is true they are smaller countries, but likewise they have proportionately lesser resources. It would have been a big job, but we well should have known that and got it done. It called (and still calls) for all out total war, but instead we ignored it and we presently have a plan of half measures in part of the country. In Wuhan alone, the Chinese had 1,800 teams of 5 persons each doing nothing but contact tracing. We knew that many weeks ago. How many teams do we have doing contact tracing in the USA? Any? Yes it is a big job; but what are the alternatives. We now have at least 10 million unemployed people and another couple hundred million sitting at home with nothing to do. Why are we not asking them to do the contact tracing? Perhaps because we aren't even testing enough people to tell them whom to contact trace.

See below for facts on countries that have been successful.

 

[TigerCaper]

We NEED an actual leader. Sadly, Not going to happen.

Agreed, which is why it screams for a pandemic "czar" to coordinate the response. I despise President Trump's personal attributes but liked much of what he did on trade, China, the border, etc. He also had a "can do" attitude that was helpful to the country IMO for the first 3 years. But it has all been more than undone in 1 disastrous month. Unless we get a miracle soon, he will go down in history as one of the most harmful administrations in history IMO.

 

[TigerCaper]

Agreed we need to come together to solve the problem, but absolutely we must also hold accountable everyone who had the opportunity to avoid this. And we must especially not blindly trust those who failed to prevent the catastrophe - particularly on the very same problem they have failed at monumentally just weeks before. Can you tell me the national strategy even today other than "flatten the curve." What are the goals? How do we define success? Look at Scott Gottlieb's plan or the one on crushing the curve in the New England Journal of Medicine; those are a couple of viable plans - but private persons writing on their own time seem to have a more complete, coherent strategy than our government!

It is true they are smaller countries, but likewise they have proportionately lesser resources. It would have been a big job, but we well should have known that and got it done. It called (and still calls) for all out total war, but instead we ignored it and we presently have a plan of half measures in part of the country. In Wuhan alone, the Chinese had 1,800 teams of 5 persons each doing nothing but contact tracing. We knew that many weeks ago. How many teams do we have doing contact tracing in the USA? Any? Yes it is a big job; but what are the alternatives. We now have at least 10 million unemployed people and another couple hundred million sitting at home with nothing to do. Why are we not asking them to do the contact tracing? Perhaps because we aren't even testing enough people to tell them whom to contact trace.

See below for facts on countries that have been successful.

View embedded media

And before anyone gets too excited about China's numbers being artificially deflated, note the following:

 

[CUT93]

Agreed, which is why it screams for a pandemic "czar" to coordinate the response. I despise President Trump's personal attributes but liked much of what he did on trade, China, the border, etc. He also had a "can do" attitude that was helpful to the country IMO for the first 3 years. But it has all been more than undone in 1 disastrous month. Unless we get a miracle soon, he will go down in history as one of the most harmful administrations in history IMO.

So how many people do think are going to die from this? Serious question. I have no idea, but I just want to know. You can give me a range if you want to.

 

[thebooyaa]

And before anyone gets too excited about China's numbers being artificially deflated, note the following:

View embedded media

China 10 or 20x - laughable, real numbers much higher, if they would have been honest, this could have been avoidable. Read some articles

 

[nsp1996]

I will no longer put my life on the line for a president that cares about personal gains. If your interested in joining the army link provided below. I'm done
https://www.goarmy.com/?iom=AFTU-20...yXnsh_QCKV5Q1uOSY9AupYHmWZMXk7choC_aIQAvD_BwE

No one who has ever served put his/her life on the line for any specific President. That includes you. You should know this, it's spelled out pretty clearly in the oath that you took when you joined.

Thanks for however long you have served and thanks for having the integrity to leave if your dislike for a President is so consuming that you don't want to serve as part of an organization that is bound to take orders from that President. Seriously. That's the honorable thing to do.

 

[petegroove]

medical and scientific community for the reasons you mention and that they by nature often are not outspoken and frequently are introverted, but i personally witnessed some of them chastising and ridiculing as alarmist some of their colleagues who were raising the alarm

I saw some of the same behavior at the health care company I work for, with people comparing this to the flu and spouting the "blah blah, common sense, blah, blah" ignorance that was was so prevalent just a few weeks ago (and still exists, although much less so). But it wasn't from any of the professionals (DPT) or most RN (1 RN, maybe 2), it was a bunch of LPN, HHA, and even a MSW. Seemed to be a correlation between education and prudence.

 

[tigerfan700]

And I assume O'bummer was competent??? Morons everywhere

All I can say is thank God that Obama was President during the Ebola crisis. If Trump had been President we would probably all be dead.
When Trump opens his mouth we all feel like Dr Fauci.

 

[TigerCaper]

China 10 or 20x - laughable, real numbers much higher, if they would have been honest, this could have been avoidable. Read some articles

China is the most responsible no doubt, and IMO should be held responsible by the world for lying about it in a way that led the gullible to underestimate it. Presently, they are positioned to gain the most from it despite misleading the world for weeks (at least) about it.

Once they understood the scope of the problem, however, they addressed it within their country very effectively as best i can tell (at least for now, they may be merely delaying the inevitable). They only had one major epicenter. We are positioned to have multiple major epicenters despite having China (and Italy to a lesser extent) as the models for what would happen. We also had South Korea as an example of how to handle more constructively.

I have read dozens of articles (at least) and thousands upon thousands of tweets beginning January 24th when I read the first article about China locking down Wuhan in The Daily Mail. I knew then this was not an ordinary virus as China never shut down for SARS. Even if China has admitted only 1% of its actual deaths, Dr. Ebright thinks we will still have more deaths per capita. And that is with us seeing China's experience first and being able presumably to learn from it.

 

[TigerCaper]

So how many people do think are going to die from this? Serious question. I have no idea, but I just want to know. You can give me a range if you want to.

I am not an expert, but the articles etc. I have read estimated 40-70% of the population ultimately would catch it if left unchecked. They said this would occur over 2 years in 3 waves much like the Spanish Flu: now, fall/winter of 2020-2021, and fall/winter of 2021-22. The most recent study I saw estimates the death rate at .7% when including assymptomatic carriers. At a population of 330 million, that would lead to an anticipated death rate of somewhere between 924k (330 million x.007x.4) and 1.617 million (330x.007x.7). Apparently, these are actually more conservative than the numbers Drs. Fauci and Birx have shown President Trump. I think Drs. Fauci and Birx are assuming a death rate of closer to 1%.

When you contemplate these numbers, you understand why the social distancing/shutting down the economy options are being done (at least part way). It is a heck of a problem. That is why I believe the leaders must explain all this to the country carefully and consistently, shut everything down hard and tight for 8-10 weeks to "crush" not "flatten" the curve. We cannot do this but once and must get it right IMO. It is also why we must operate with the urgency and tenacity as if this is all out total war IMO.

 

[tigerfan700]

China is the most responsible no doubt, and IMO should be held responsible by the world for lying about it in a way that led the gullible to underestimate it. Presently, they are positioned to gain the most from it despite misleading the world for weeks (at least) about it.

Once they understood the scope of the problem, however, they addressed it within their country very effectively as best i can tell (at least for now, they may be merely delaying the inevitable). They only had one major epicenter. We are positioned to have multiple major epicenters despite having China (and Italy to a lesser extent) as the models for what would happen. We also had South Korea as an example of how to handle more constructively.

I have read dozens of articles (at least) and thousands upon thousands of tweets beginning January 24th when I read the first article about China locking down Wuhan in The Daily Mail. I knew then this was not an ordinary virus as China never shut down for SARS. Even if China has admitted only 1% of its actual deaths, Dr. Ebright thinks we will still have more deaths per capita. And that is with us seeing China's experience first and being able presumably to learn from it.

Just think if we had a president that would have taken this serious in January instead of praising China’s response. Just think if we had a leader that would have listened to the medical experts instead of calling the virus a hoax and saying it would disappear on April 1 due to warm weather. Joe Biden January 27
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4581710002

 

[CUT93]

I am not an expert, but the articles etc. I have read estimated 40-70% of the population ultimately would catch it if left unchecked. They said this would occur over 2 years in 3 waves much like the Spanish Flu: now, fall/winter of 2020-2021, and fall/winter of 2021-22. The most recent study I saw estimates the death rate at .7% when including assymptomatic carriers. At a population of 330 million, that would lead to an anticipated death rate of somewhere between 924k (330 million x.007x.4) and 1.617 million (330x.007x.7). Apparently, these are actually more conservative than the numbers Drs. Fauci and Birx have shown President Trump. I think Drs. Fauci and Birx are assuming a death rate of closer to 1%.

When you contemplate these numbers, you understand why the social distancing/shutting down the economy options are being done (at least part way). It is a heck of a problem. That is why I believe the leaders must explain all this to the country carefully and consistently, shut everything down hard and tight for 8-10 weeks to "crush" not "flatten" the curve. We cannot do this but once and must get it right IMO. It is also why we must operate with the urgency and tenacity as if this is all out total war IMO.

Based on those numbers, you would not like me either. I would be full steam ahead starting today based on that information. I would gladly take a 16%-17% increase in total deaths for the next three years in order to mitigate further damage to the economy and further massive stimulus debt loads.

As I posted in another thread, we already willingly sacrifice lives every year for economic and reasons of convenience. If you look at the causes of death in the US every year there are some simple things we could do to save many lives every year, not just the next 2-3 years. The most obvious one to me is traffic deaths. We could probably save at least 20,000 lives and prevent 100,000 serious injuries each year by reducing the national speed limit. Not to mention the decrease in emissions from reduced speed limits. That is not for one year, that is every single year going forward and is just the easiest example I could come up with. We choose not to as a society. We already put a price on human life, whether you choose to admit it or not.
You never hear people in an uproar about trying to save the lives we sacrifice every year already. We are not willing to drive slower to save lives every year, but we are willing to financially ruin peoples lives, make them bankrupt their business, make their employees jobless, and saddle our country with debt levels never seen before to keep death rates from increasing 15% a year for 2-3 years. Logically, this does not make sense. I am not saying what we do now is right or wrong. What I am pointing out is that the actions we currently take, or do not take, that impact deaths do not justify the actions many are calling for now.

 

[TigerCaper]

Based on those numbers, you would not like me either. I would be full steam ahead starting today based on that information. I would gladly take a 16%-17% increase in total deaths for the next three years in order to mitigate further damage to the economy and further massive stimulus debt loads.

As I posted in another thread, we already willingly sacrifice lives every year for economic and reasons of convenience. If you look at the causes of death in the US every year there are some simple things we could do to save many lives every year, not just the next 2-3 years. The most obvious one to me is traffic deaths. We could probably save at least 20,000 lives and prevent 100,000 serious injuries each year by reducing the national speed limit. Not to mention the decrease in emissions from reduced speed limits. That is not for one year, that is every single year going forward and is just the easiest example I could come up with. We choose not to as a society. We already put a price on human life, whether you choose to admit it or not.
You never hear people in an uproar about trying to save the lives we sacrifice every year already. We are not willing to drive slower to save lives every year, but we are willing to financially ruin peoples lives, make them bankrupt their business, make their employees jobless, and saddle our country with debt levels never seen before to keep death rates from increasing 15% a year for 2-3 years. Logically, this does not make sense. I am not saying what we do now is right or wrong. What I am pointing out is that the actions we currently take, or do not take, that impact deaths do not justify the actions many are calling for now.

Understood that we often hype certain, dramatic deaths way out of proportion to other riskier, but less dramatic deaths, but see this interactive graphic. This virus has been in the country only 10 weeks or so and we have shut down the economy to slow it, yet it is the 3rd largest cause of death already.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/