I do not dislike you because of an opinion. The question of whether the economic devastation is worth it is legitimate. It may be that we are merely delaying the inevitable with all of our social distancing, etc. in any event. It is a hard problem. We had much better potential options 2 months back IMO. That is why the failures then are so catastrophic. All of our options now are terrible.
The blame has to go somewhere.
- Thread starter Edistoplayer
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I do not dislike you because of an opinion. The question of whether the economic devastation is worth it is legitimate. It may be that we are merely delaying the inevitable with all of our social distancing, etc. in any event. It is a hard problem. We had much better potential options 2 months back IMO. That is why the failures then are so catastrophic. All of our options now are terrible.
Here is a good example of an expert admitting her failure.
"I am scared and enraged because there's no central authority here. I don't understand what's going on. The CDC isn't giving press briefings. They're just absent. And that could be because the administration is muzzling them. Or it could mean that there's disarray inside the CDC. And I guess all of that will come out.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...661&utm_medium=social&utm_source=VICE_twitter
I do not hate anyone, but I do believe in the truth and shining light on problems. The fact is that the USA is one of (if not the most) capable countries in the world to deal with the virus, we had advanced warning, and it appears we will get one of the worst results from the virus (if not the worst). We have devastated our economy. I am not amused with the performance of a whole lot of folks we pay to look our for us. Many of them are supposed to be experts. We are their employer. We are a country of accountability, performance, and results - or at least that is what we were built on and were in the past. Many of them need to be fired immediately and all should be held accountable. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.
The travel from China was only stopped in part. I remember watching daily on flight aware after the travel "ban" from China seeing flights coming to the USA from China. The NY Times says 40k came directly from China even after the travel ban. How many more came from connecting flights? See below.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/...l-restrictions.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes
I understand, but given the estimated you gave about deaths, I would open things up because those would be acceptable loses for me based on the likely cost to lessen them. Also, the estimated deaths you quoted likely don't take into account that we will likely have more and better treatment options very soon as well as the potential for a vaccine that would could lessen the impact of the future waves of the virus that would be expected more than a year from now. It is an awful situation where there are no good options.
I didn't mean to imply you dislike me for my opinion. I meant you would probably dislike me for my actions(to open things up) if i were in charge. You always have better options early. Even if you believe we should have done much more early on, all that blame(for lack of a better term) does not lie with the president. No one was stopping any of the governors, or mayors for that mater, from implementing measures to mitigate the spread. Would it have been easier for one person to do it rather than 50(governors), yes. Those 50 governors were still free to act, or not act, no matter Trumps response. You can justifiably assign him blame, but can can not do that without also assigning blame to all the governors who did not act.
Trump is the biggest culprit, but he has a whole host of accomplices. See below for what I posted elsewhere on this.
But ignoring the virus and claiming it was nothing and essentially doing no testing for 6 weeks is where history will judge President Trump and a lot of governors and public health officials very harshly IMO. Governor Cuomo and NYC Mayor de Blasio, for example, do not get a pass from me. They have more capability on such issues than all but a handful of countries in the world. What did they do to address and plan for it? I suspect the capability within their borders is comparable to South Korea and more than Taiwan and Iceland. What did they do to avoid and address what was a clear and present danger of epic proportions? We live in a society of results and performance. We have a complete and utter failure of leadership and judgment of epic and unbelievable magnitude at every level IMO.
Debating the issue of when to open up is legitimate. It will have to be done at some point. I have seen nothing that makes me think any level of government is analyzing it and giving us parameters in advance. What are the goals? What is success? How do we get there? An absolute vacuum of leadership persists even now IMO.
Doesnt take much since he has been totally incompetent and proven to be a shitty leader during this. Cant believe a lot of you were duped into electing this dope to the highest office in the land if not the world.
Dug us out of a recession. Moved the country forward and improved the future of the country. Terrible President that guy named Obama was.
Most mayors (not all) are at a complete disadvantage for addressing these situations as they don’t have the staff or resources and are often completely over ruled by ignorant governors- I’m looking at you Georgia, Florida, SC, et al.
Many governors are shining in this crisis, but they aren’t in charge of the entire US. Governors don’t receive intel reports from around the world (that they discount based on uninformed hunches/gut feels), they don’t control the CDC, they can’t invoke Defense Procurement Act, they can’t take interstate action (though several have established interstate agreements in recognition of the failures of the federal government),they do not have the ear of the entire nation. In the national leadership vacuum currently existing, states are left to fend for themselves often in direct competition. This crap sandwich belongs to a certain Occupants of white mansion on Pennsylvania Avenue in the District of Columbia.
All I can say is thank God that Obama was President during the Ebola crisis. If Trump had been President we would probably all be dead.
When Trump opens his mouth we all feel like Dr Fauci.
Ah, yes.
If only Trump wouldn't have started to curtail travel from infected countries before everyone wanted, and also waited until after 12,000 Americans were dead to declare a State of Emergency.
The Democrat genius in you is strong.
No one has the power the potus has, not denying that. However, every governor has the power to order shelter in place and to shut down non essential business. They have the power to do everything that you think is necessary. You cant say many governors have been shinning stars and made a huge difference on one hand while implying the don't have the power to do it on the other.
Again, if you want to hand out blame because you don't think enough has been done, then Trump certainly deserves some. The largest consensus is that there was enough available information sometime in Feb. that anyone should have known what was coming. So if all the governors had put shelter in place orders out six weeks ago and the nyc mayor had not been telling new yorkers to ignore the corona virus warnings don't you think we would be in a pretty good place right now? Just because the potus did not act when you think he should have, doesn't mean he was stopping anyone else from doing so. If we had been in sip in all the states for the last 5-6 weeks would that not have been sufficient?
I won’t defend any politician that soft played this after the death tolls from China became known in mid January. The mayor of NYC belongs in the same category as Trump.
I would suggest that the intel and science necessary to address this arrived at the White House a month before any governors mansion. Unfortunately the president doesn’t trust profession intelligence services (or medical professionals), just his gut.
Have Governors been slow and moronic? Some yes- hell some are still making policy based on Fox News casts from early February that lead el presidente to down play the virus and lose precious time. Some of the actions necessary are not in the hands of governors, only in DJT’s hands.
Our president is so petty that a majority of the governors cower. Half the governors are Republicans that would not get in front of the president policywise until it was too late. Hell, the Democratic governor of California is playing nice now to ensure that federal help will be there when he needs it.
How do you tell which political oil wars are more important than others?
also, US coronavirus results have mirrored most countries. If people were able to understand data beyond total sick and total dead they’d understand that. Unfortunately people are ignorant so media uses the stats that best control the narrative.
How does US compare to other countries when comparing deaths and infected per capita?
The death toll is under-reported here, maybe by a large amount, and probably any other country that doesn’t have good test penetration.
Yes. But death rate is also overstated. Studies are showing that a crazy high amount of people can have no symptoms. The lack of US testing creates a much higher death rate than the actual death rate.
The curve is also much flatter than estimates. What’s funny is how no one cares about deaths per capita. It’s much easier to post a news article saying “US has most cases in the world.”
Thank you for your service to this great nation.
As to the reasoning - that's your choice and I am far from qualified to judge it. As the great Captain, James T Kirk said, "[You've] done your bit for king and country." How many years were you in?
Personally I'm trying to decide how I feel about the way this has been handled. It's easy judge things in hindsight and real-time decisions are often imperfect. Trump is FAR from perfect and there are several former Presidents I'd rather have in office right now but we got who we got and I pray for him and that he makes the right decisions.
BTW - didn't we decide that we went to the same high school (Edisto, in Cordova)?
Time will tell what the death rate is, and we won’t know for months or more. If the denominator AND numerator are both under-reported, the death rate may be closer to what is currently stated than where you think it will end up.
We are only testing people who are very sick.... things will look much less worse over time.
I like much of what Trump did on China, trade, the wall,etc., but this is very damning on this response to CV19 and as best I can tell very accurate.
First of all. Thank you for your service.
Second of all, you are wasting your time. Like most things, there's plenty blame to go around. One thing you can count on is that Trump will accept no responsibility. Another thing is that none of the Trumpians on here will believe he has ANY responsibility at all. Finally, you will see Trump change the things you've shown us above by simply saying "I never said that". And despite the actual tape, the Trumpians will absolutely believe that as well. Hell, they already believe he took the pandemic seriously the whole time, despite him continually joking about it and the Dems at rallys. It's called gaslighting... and Trump is a master.
Second of all, you are wasting your time. Like most things, there's plenty blame to go around. One thing you can count on is that Trump will accept no responsibility. Another thing is that none of the Trumpians on here will believe he has ANY responsibility at all. Finally, you will see Trump change the things you've shown us above by simply saying "I never said that". And despite the actual tape, the Trumpians will absolutely believe that as well. Hell, they already believe he took the pandemic seriously the whole time, despite him continually joking about it and the Dems at rallys. It's called gaslighting... and Trump is a master.
Thanks for that interview. BUT, as I told OP, you are wasting your time here. The Trumpians on here know that no one could have seen this coming b/c Trump told them that. Facts like this playbook and virologists being worried about it make NO DIFFERENCE. Trump said it is so and so it is. I'm continually baffled by this, but the entire Trump base is like that. You can point out facts, lies, misinformation all day long and it makes NO DIFFERENCE. Folks will look at that interview and tomorrow will tell you what a great job Trump has done. And the really scary thing? They absolutely believe it.
I support Trump. Have voted for him. Will vote for him again vs. the Socialist or the Robot that the Dems put up as a nominee. He has responsibility, but he is the man in the arena right now... and we will have lessons learned. There are rational discussions to be had, but you have to get past @hopefultiger13 and his breathless hyperbole first.
You saw the part where he didn't say that and you put words in his mouth right?
I will give you 100 Million dollars if it's gone before the end of the month. You willing to take the other side of that bet?
Trump says he is a "Billionaire" but hides tax returns.
Trump says he is a "Genius" but hides college grades.
Trump says he is a "Business man" but bankrupt a casino.
Trump says he is a "Christian" but doesn't go to church.
Trump says he is a "Philanthropist" but ripped off his charity.
Trump says he is a "Patriot" but dodged the draft.
Trump says he is an "innocent man" but won't testify.
Trump says he is a "Conservative Republican" but plans to raise the U.S. debt by the most any president ever has in a four year term.
This article is written by a conservative republican, and it lays out all the ways that Trump has botched this virus response. Worth a read, although it will not fit into your confirmation bias.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-paying-the-price-for-trumps-failures/609532/
God bless you for your service. Now I am going to go pray God will help you think straight. You have earned your opinion but it's completely wrong. You may have served our nation honorably but I would encourage you to learn how our government works and where the power is broken down. You have missed the boat entirely. I can understand how you feel that way given that this problem isn't going on anywhere else in the world. It's just us, right? :/ Such a blind thought process. Good luck to you though!
I get your point, but by that logic I would be in favor of having no military. The death of my son would be awful.
Your analogy doesn't make sense if the lack of a military could mean your son just ends up dying to someone the military could have stopped.
Trump has loads of money is the POTUS, has a hot wife and lives in the White House but still lives rent free in @Rychek4 's head at the same time (he must have special powers like Santa Claus, I guess)
Trump says that he is @Rychek4 's President, but, well.. He is!
Wow that was childish and fun. Kinda like your post. I feel so much better now.
You projecting confirmation bias onto me? Thanks for the icebreaker. I like someone with a sense for the ironic. It is such a more refined sense of humor. On the same order with sarcasm, in my opinion. And for you to be self-depreciating too? Comedic genius. Bravo.
I don't know why it is significant that it was written by a "Conservative Republican". Trump is not a Conservative Republican, in fact he is not really a Republican. He's really an independent, a nationalist, who got elected the only way an independent can in this country... he co-opted a major party and used it to win, God-bless the Repub. political careerist's little souls... and was elected for a plethora of really good reasons (IMHO). I'm not a conservative Repub either so I personally assign no weight to that. If that was to somehow target me, it missed the mark. If not, ok too.
I'm not sure exactly what your point is with posting the article and directing me to it. But I know that I've been pretty consistent here that I think that the Trump admin has made mistakes. I have also been consistent in saying that I think there needs to be a bi-partisan (big word) commission after this thing is over, and that it needs to occur after this thing is over. NOT during. Potshots from the peanut gallery to score political points and help media make $$ but the reality is that there are many ways to do things, many ways to approach wicked problems (that is a real and defined term), and nobody does anything that pleases everybody at all times, least of all (maybe especially) political rivals.
I also believe that no other President in history in before and during a crisis has faced such an partisan Congress, partisan media and self-serving bureaucratic resistance than Trump.
Do I think that has an impact on a businessman who is not a career politician, used to the self-serving infighting of the political elite? I do, personally. I am impressed with Trump's stamina and his focus on many of the issues that I elected him to focus on. While at the same time dealing with this and opposition from all sides.
Do I think we need to wait to determine the success/failure of the Trump Admin response? Yes.
Do I think that we need to take a really, really , really hard look at the State responses and preparation for this (this being a Republic and all) as part of all this? Yes.
Do I think that we need to examine what congress knew and when they knew it and what their focus was when they knew it? Yes.
Do I believe this article to be a hit piece that adds nothing in this time of crisis? Yes.
Wow, thanks for that. I am convinced by your elegant argument. Except where you forgot to make.... an argument. it's fine. I expected exactly that level of debate from you.
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