The poor are just not capable of deciding what's best for their kids so they don't deserve the freedom to choose

[jarrod.moore]

I have a few questions for you:

Who decides when a parent is failing? What makes you think people on the right don't understand strong families when it comes to schools? I completely agree about parents needing to do a better job. I agree that as a whole, parents are failing in society. I'm just wondering who you want to put in charge of fixing that? Politicians on both sides aren't going to have the courage to blame parents. They are voters. That being said, I just wonder what you think the role of the state is in fixing these problems? Should it have any role really beyond clearly abusive situations? Now if you want to have behavioral schools for students who are disruptive good luck with that. I'm not opposed to that at all but you'll learn quickly in the public school model they won't do much about that. However, I am opposed to the state having an active role in raising kids. Government is a necessary evil at best. I don't want that monster anywhere near my children. I certainly don't want it deciding what is OK for my kids because we've seen that is clearly a recipe for disaster.

For my part, it's not so much that I want kids from areas with failing schools to be able to go to better public schools. My hope is we can get them entirely out of public schooling and into private schools which will help them have a chance in life despite their circumstances. The best way to lower poverty rates is to take everything we have to try and break the cycle of poverty in families. Now I know that adherence to moral principles works as well and that we should be encouraging that but I also know that it's not right to cram that down on people. Folks are going to have to choose. That's the biggest place we have gone wrong and it's evident all around us. That is not a matter of geography or poverty. It's quite literally everywhere.

Come to a public school and you can see what parents are failing. Apples and trees.

What gives me the right is being part of a community. We used to have strong communities that held kids accountable. Parents did their jobs, and the small % who didn't were held accountable by the schools and the community as a whole. We had standards. Once Hillary said "It takes a village" Republicans reflexively rejected that, obviously true, idea and became radically individualistic with their families. "The school can't paddle my child" I can raise me kid to be a POS adult...That's my right! No, we have a social contract with each other; with our families, neighborhoods, communities, states, and then country.

The public school system worked fine for 100 years, the schools didn't change on their own, the parents changed. Schools now are expected to do the jobs of the education and the parents. It's not built to do that at this level. We are passed the critical mass.

The reason that private schools are so effective is because they don't have to deal with discipline problems or academic issues...they can just kick kids out. (Same with the good charter schools) What are you going to do with THOSE kids? That's a pipe dream that will help a small subset of students. You can argue that that is a net good. I would argue that while it could help a few students, it is bad for the community as a whole. Once the standard bearers of a school leave the "middle" will then look to for someone else to imitate...and it will be the "bad" kids.

I've taught for 12+ years now, and the change has been dramatic in that short amount of time. I graduated HS in 2000, and public schools barely resemble the institutions that I was at. The amount of fights, disrespect to adults, lack of academic rigor is amazing. There are many reasons for that (some b/c of the Federal DOE for sure) but mostly b/c of parents. How many kids did you go to school with told teachers/principals to "**** off" on a daily basis, with no repercussions? How many kids did you sit in classes with that turned in nothing, expecting a free 50% and have their parents blame shift to teachers?

I'm not saying schools are perfect, or that their aren't bad teachers/schools, but those things all existed forever, without this level of issue. The independent variable here are parents. If I acted like disrespectful (sometimes I did) my dad lit my behind. My mom wasn't my "friend" who rationalized my bad behavior. She wasn't a "cool mom" who claimed everything I did wrong wasn't my fault. She held me accountable at home. My grandparents chewed me out. If that failed my neighbors grabbed me by the ear/collar and dragged me home to my mom, shaming me down the street. Now they put their hands up and say "it's not my problem"

Republicans bought into this "whatever, man" extreme libertarianism (i was guilty of that for a while too) that has aided in the erosion of community standards. That is what is causing the school problems, not the other way around. You are trying to solve the problem of an aggressive dog by looking at the dog bite on the victim's arm.

 

[jarrod.moore]

My question for you is this, what do you consider CRT? What do you consider gender ideology?

My wife is a school counselor. If a child comes to her and says they are struggling with their gender/sexuality, her parents don't understand, and they are considering suicide, should she be allowed to talk with this student? This exact situation has happened. In Florida under Desantis this is illegal.

What if a History class is discussing the discovery of America and discusses that the invading Europeans displaced and stole the lands of the indigenous people who were here, would you consider that CRT?

We throw these terms around like CRT and don't think about what that means, or how to address these issues.

I'm a teacher, no one says teaching history is CRT. That's not a thing.

 

[Willence]

My question for you is this, what do you consider CRT? What do you consider gender ideology?

My wife is a school counselor. If a child comes to her and says they are struggling with their gender/sexuality, her parents don't understand, and they are considering suicide, should she be allowed to talk with this student? This exact situation has happened. In Florida under Desantis this is illegal.

What if a History class is discussing the discovery of America and discusses that the invading Europeans displaced and stole the lands of the indigenous people who were here, would you consider that CRT?

We throw these terms around like CRT and don't think about what that means, or how to address these issues.

You are wrong here. Florida says the families need to know. You said parents don't understand which suggests the parents know. That is ok. What they can't do is transition the kids without the parents being involved. You misrepresent to make a point that isn't there.

 

[yoshi121374]

I'm a teacher, no one says teaching history is CRT. That's not a thing.

I agree. But ask them to explain CRT. They always come back to teachers teaching history. Just be a use we don't like it, or how it makes us look doesn't mean it isn't true, or shouldn't be taught.

There may be issues out there, but this idea of "CRT" being widespread and prevalent is a made up issue to piss off the right and demonize education.

 

[yoshi121374]

You are wrong here. Florida says the families need to know. You said parents don't understand which suggests the parents know. That is ok. What they can't do is transition the kids without the parents being involved. You misrepresent to make a point that isn't there.

Wrong. They literally cannot speak with the child about sexuality. What about if the child says their parents don't know and they are terrified to speak with them because they know that their parents feel like they will go to hell of they are gay, etc?

We want to address mental health, but we handcuff our mental health professionals.

LGBTQ Teachers Struggle to Navigate Florida's So-Called 'Don't Say Gay' Law

LGBTQ educators in Florida describe widespread confusion over how much they need to hide their own identities, limit discussion of LGBTQ people or history, or notify parents if a student comes out to them.

time.com

 

[jarrod.moore]

I agree. But ask them to explain CRT. They always come back to teachers teaching history. Just be a use we don't like it, or how it makes us look doesn't mean it isn't true, or shouldn't be taught.

There may be issues out there, but this idea of "CRT" being widespread and prevalent is a made up issue to piss off the right and demonize education.

It's really not though. CRT is idea that, alleged, embedded systems have created an unfair society, which is the only explination for differences in outcomes.

CRT might be overblown, but it is real. This mindset is taught in education majors. I know, I went through it. It is worthy of a thought exercise, but the ideas are being taught, especially by young teachers.

If you are teaching a history book in k-12 no one will say anything to you, if you teach out of Zinn's Peoples History or the 1619 project they will. (If you do you should be fired IMO)

 

[yoshi121374]

It's really not though. CRT is idea that, alleged, embedded systems have created an unfair society, which is the only explination for differences in outcomes.

CRT might be overblown, but it is real. This mindset is taught in education majors. I know, I went through it. It is worthy of a thought exercise, but the ideas are being taught, especially but young teachers.

If you are teaching a history book in k-12 no one will say anything to you, if you teach out of Zinn's Peoples History or the 1619 project they will. (If you do you should be fired IMO)

Agreed.

 

[scotchtiger]

Question for you... Who is going to pay for Private Schools for these children? The only way is governmental funding. If they are government funded it stands to reason we would want oversight into curriculum to insure that we are getting what we paid for as a country. At that point, what is the difference?

School choice people should just be honest and admit that what you really mean is that you want to get money for your children to offset your costs to send your kids to Private School

School choice makes sense in some respects, but I can’t quite figure out the logistics.

Where I live, there is a waiting list for private schools. How are we going to all of a sudden send a bunch of new school choice kids to these places?

Also where I live, we have excellent public schools, in high demand, and at capacity. I’m sure plenty of people will request that their kids go to Belle Hall Elementary or Lucy Beckham HS.

But guess what? I live here, I pay a shitload more taxes (that pay for the schools) than someone requesting to school choice their way in and my kids get 100% priority over any non-resident. There should be 0.00% impact to my kids being able to go to their local, zoned school because of school choice.

And to your point, who would pay for the private school tuition, assuming someone could actually get in? Private schools here are $25K per year or more. Residents aren’t paying anywhere near that and local taxes. You can’t justify giving someone credit or a voucher for more than they actually pay.

So how does it work?

 

[scotchtiger]

I think the cost of educating a child in each state should be available to use in private schools.

Let me get this right. You think that a family paying a diminutive amount of taxes that contribute to education should be able to receive a $25,000 check per year to send their kid to Porter Gaud? Potentially $300,000+ per kid over their 12 grades?

Yea, that doesn’t work. I could see a tax credit against the portion of your taxes that contribute to education. But people shouldn’t get checks from the government for more than they contribute.

 

[yoshi121374]

School choice makes sense in some respects, but I can’t quite figure out the logistics.

Where I live, there is a waiting list for private schools. How are we going to all of a sudden send a bunch of new school choice kids to these places?

Also where I live, we have excellent public schools, in high demand, and at capacity. I’m sure plenty of people will request that their kids go to Belle Hall Elementary or Lucy Beckham HS.

But guess what? I live here, I pay a shitload more taxes (that pay for the schools) than someone requesting to school choice their way in and my kids get 100% priority over any non-resident. There should be 0.00% impact to my kids being able to go to their local, zoned school because of school choice.

And to your point, who would pay for the private school tuition, assuming someone could actually get in? Private schools here are $25K per year or more. Residents aren’t paying anywhere near that and local taxes. You can’t justify giving someone credit or a voucher for more than they actually pay.

So how does it work?

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying. These folks who want to do away with public funded education/school choice can't explain that basic concept. Who is going to pay for it?

Let me get this right. You think that a family paying a diminutive amount of taxes that contribute to education should be able to receive a $25,000 check per year to send their kid to Porter Gaud? Potentially $300,000+ per kid over their 12 grades?

Yea, that doesn’t work. I could see a tax credit against the portion of your taxes that contribute to education. But people shouldn’t get checks from the government for more than they contribute.

 

[PAWrocka]

My question for you is this, what do you consider CRT? What do you consider gender ideology?

My wife is a school counselor. If a child comes to her and says they are struggling with their gender/sexuality, her parents don't understand, and they are considering suicide, should she be allowed to talk with this student? This exact situation has happened. In Florida under Desantis this is illegal.

What if a History class is discussing the discovery of America and discusses that the invading Europeans displaced and stole the lands of the indigenous people who were here, would you consider that CRT?

We throw these terms around like CRT and don't think about what that means, or how to address these issues.

It is my understanding that the Florida law only applies to students up to the 3rd grade.

Regardless, your wife needs to inform the parents and inform them that their child maybe suffering from gender dysphoria and is threatening suicide. It would be the same if a child came to her, and said that they were hearing voices in their head. Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness and it should not be normalized just as schizophrenia shouldnt be normalized. I would assume that the threat of suicide would also trigger a state social worker to be assigned? It is not your wife's job or place to have those conversations with someone else's child.

We have already gone a few rounds on CRT, or maybe it was @dpic73 ... probably both of you .... (shrug). I dont have a problem with teaching history (although, I completely reject the notion (language choice) that European colonists "stole" land. The land and the native american tribes were conquered. There is a difference. Native American tribes wared with each other, took lands and enslaved each other for centuries before the first European step foot in North America. I). Matter of fact (and I have used this example with you before), the first time I ever heard about the Tulsa Race riots was when I watched the Watchmen show on HBO. That is a problem!!!!

Where I balk with "CRT" is when it is taught that there are systems of oppression active today that keep racial minorities oppressed and under the boot of white people (oppressors). This is complete and utter nonsense. This is absolutely being taught in schools in some way or fashion and it is disgusting and its unbelievably racist. Additionally, CRT is straight out of the Marxist playbook (proletariat vs the bourgeoisie), but since we dont have a proletariat here in the US (... thank GOD for the middle class, but Brandon is working on destroying that), these self proclaimed Marxists must find a way to disrupt, destabilize, dismantle, and divide us. What better way to divide us than along the lines of race and exploit what is a dark US history.

 

[yoshi121374]

It is my understanding that the Florida law only applies to students up to the 3rd grade.

Regardless, your wife needs to inform the parents and inform them that their child maybe suffering from gender dysphoria and is threatening suicide. It would be the same if a child came to her, and said that they were hearing voices in their head. Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness and it should not be normalized just as schizophrenia shouldnt be normalized. I would assume that the threat of suicide would also trigger a state social worker to be assigned? It is not your wife's job or place to have those conversations with someone else's child.

We have already gone a few rounds on CRT, or maybe it was @dpic73 ... probably both of you .... (shrug). I dont have a problem with teaching history (although, I completely reject the notion (language choice) that European colonists "stole" land. The land and the native american tribes were conquered. There is a difference. Native American tribes wared with each other, took lands and enslaved each other for centuries before the first European step foot in North America. I). Matter of fact (and I have used this example with you before), the first time I ever heard about the Tulsa Race riots was when I watched the Watchmen show on HBO. That is a problem!!!!

Where I balk with "CRT" is when it is taught that there are systems of oppression active today that keep racial minorities oppressed and under the boot of white people (oppressors). This is complete and utter nonsense. This is absolutely being taught in schools in some way or fashion and it is disgusting and its unbelievably racist. Additionally, CRT is straight out of the Marxist playbook (proletariat vs the bourgeoisie), but since we dont have a proletariat here in the US (... thank GOD for the middle class, but Brandon is working on destroying that), these self proclaimed Marxists must find a way to disrupt, destabilize, dismantle, and divide us. What better way to divide us than along the lines of race and exploit was is a dark US history.

Explain the difference between conquer and stolen?

 

[BlueRidgedf]

The left is obsessed with talking sex to elementary school kids

 

[Willence]

What gives me the right is being part of a community. We used to have strong communities that held kids accountable. Parents did their jobs, and the small % who didn't were held accountable by the schools and the community as a whole. We had standards. Once Hillary said "It takes a village" Republicans reflexively rejected that, obviously true, idea and became radically individualistic with their families. "The school can't paddle my child" I can raise me kid to be a POS adult...That's my right! No, we have a social contract with each other; with our families, neighborhoods, communities, states, and then country.

So if Hillary was right, which she wasn't, then why is it that you're basically saying everything worked for a long time and then it stopped working? Individualism is a founding pillar of our nation. One of its most important pillars. I'd love to see where anyone on either side said it's their right to raise a POS adult. Where's this social contract you speak of? I never signed one nor did I consent to one. That being said, as you noted, there were standards of behavior on the past and the norms of society dealt with those things. What's fascinating is how you got to the point where you somehow think it is conservatives that changed all this. I'm not sure how anyone can look at the scope of history over the past few decades and reach that conclusion. In fact, those on this board who are of the left would say it's our rigid adherence to outdated morality and views that is not allowing society to move "forward." Here's an idea. Go around the country and pick out the highest crime, toughest areas to live in and then let me know how many vote Republican. I think you'll see more clearly the enormous, massive, galaxy-sized hole in what you're saying here.

I've taught for 12+ years now, and the change has been dramatic in that short amount of time. I graduated HS in 2000, and public schools barely resemble the institutions that I was at. The amount of fights, disrespect to adults, lack of academic rigor is amazing. There are many reasons for that (some b/c of the Federal DOE for sure) but mostly b/c of parents. How many kids did you go to school with told teachers/principals to "**** off" on a daily basis, with no repercussions? How many kids did you sit in classes with that turned in nothing, expecting a free 50% and have their parents blame shift to teachers?

You're basically making the case here for conservative viewpoints. How is it that you miss that?

 

[Willence]

I agree. But ask them to explain CRT. They always come back to teachers teaching history. Just be a use we don't like it, or how it makes us look doesn't mean it isn't true, or shouldn't be taught.

There may be issues out there, but this idea of "CRT" being widespread and prevalent is a made up issue to piss off the right and demonize education.

There are many fundamental aspects of CRT present in public school curriculum all over the country. The 1619 project is taught in thousands of schools. Even they brag about that. How exactly do you miss that?

 

[PAWrocka]

Explain the difference between conquer and stolen?

I mean ... you can Google the definitions yourself ... here is a link to Merriam Webster if you need a hand

Merriam-Webster: America's Most Trusted Dictionary

Find definitions for over 300,000 words from the most authoritative English dictionary. Continuously updated with new words and meanings.

www.merriam-webster.com

Wars happened, the losing side were unable to hold their land, and they lost it. Quite simple. In order for something to be "stolen" there has to be some form of established ownership. By Native American's own admission they didnt have "ownership" of the land, because they were unaware that land could be owned. You want to find common ground? I absolutely agree that European colonist took advantage of the Native Americans and I agree that currently the United States is NOT living up to the terms of the treaties we signed with the Native American tribes and we absolutely have too. But the idea that the land was "stolen" is nonsense.

Its interesting to me that people have been invading other peoples lands for thousands of years, yet its only here in North America that the land was "stolen".

 

[Willence]

Let me get this right. You think that a family paying a diminutive amount of taxes that contribute to education should be able to receive a $25,000 check per year to send their kid to Porter Gaud? Potentially $300,000+ per kid over their 12 grades?

Yea, that doesn’t work. I could see a tax credit against the portion of your taxes that contribute to education. But people shouldn’t get checks from the government for more than they contribute.

The average cost of educating a child that the state allocates should be available to every single child in that state. I never said anything about you getting your taxes back. If we did it on that basis (which the property tax system is absurd and should be done away with) then you'd get a huge amount and poor people would get nothing. That's not the objective here.

There's a fundamental reality that we have to face. My wife saw this in the schools she taught in and I see it as well in the things I do. We are in a triage situation in many poor schools. We have to save everyone we can. There are going to be kids that we can't save from their circumstances. There are families we can't save from our circumstances. Take some time out and go minister to homeless people and you'll get a very clear understanding of this reality.

A system by definition is a means of producing results we can replicate. That's why we devise systems. Humans are individuals and one of a kind. Systems are hard in that respect. So what we must do is try to help everyone we can and then we need to find ways to try and help those who fall through the cracks. Right now we're seeing WAY too many people fall through the cracks and on top of that, people who come from privilege are far too often not becoming good people who can help our society prosper. They are far too interested in themselves. We are failing to instill so many important things in our children.

We're going to need to find better ways. By saying one system is plagued with problems isn't saying that we have the best way of doing things ready to go. I'm one guy with an opinion. I have a lot of evidence to support my opinion but I don't have the only viable opinion. I certainly don't have all the answers. But I bet if we came together in good faith we could devise a better way of doing things. Is there anyone on this thread that is going to say that everything is going swimmingly? We had one teacher post in this thread and it sounds like things are a total disaster. So what's the answer then? Just keep going? Just spend more? I don't think that's shown itself to be of benefit at all. We need a new path forward.

 

[yoshi121374]

There are many fundamental aspects of CRT present in public school curriculum all over the country. The 1619 project is taught in thousands of schools. Even they brag about that. How exactly do you miss that?

Again, what is it about teaching real, factual history that you don't like? Why is it bad to learn that our early Americans did some really bad stuff to non-whites? Are we as White males really that insecure in ourselves that we need to perpetuate some fiction that we have done nothing bad? Why is it bad to discuss the realities?

 

[yoshi121374]

I mean ... you can Google the definitions yourself ... here is a link to Merriam Webster if you need a hand

Merriam-Webster: America's Most Trusted Dictionary

Find definitions for over 300,000 words from the most authoritative English dictionary. Continuously updated with new words and meanings.

www.merriam-webster.com

Wars happened, the losing side were unable to hold their land, and they lost it. Quite simple. In order for something to be "stolen" there has to be some form of established ownership. By Native American's own admission they didnt have "ownership" of the land, because they were unaware that land could be owned. You want to find common ground? I absolutely agree that European colonist took advantage of the Native Americans and I agree that currently the United States is NOT living up to the terms of the treaties we signed with the Native American tribes and we absolutely have too. But the idea that the land was "stolen" is nonsense.

Its interesting to me that people have been invading other peoples lands for thousands of years, yet its only here in North America that the land was "stolen".

So why is discussing how they were treated historically, and the facts that our government made treaties and didn't uphold our end bad? You admit it's facts, why don't we talk about this?

Many of us on this board, and even in this thread disagree, but we are all discussing it and trying to make our points. I believe talking about issues is how you come to a deeper understanding and potentially better understanding of others points of views. If we don't allow discussion due to fear then this stuff gets far worse.

 

[jarrod.moore]

So if Hillary was right, which she wasn't, then why is it that you're basically saying everything worked for a long time and then it stopped working? Individualism is a founding pillar of our nation. One of its most important pillars. I'd love to see where anyone on either side said it's their right to raise a POS adult. Where's this social contract you speak of? I never signed one nor did I consent to one. That being said, as you noted, there were standards of behavior on the past and the norms of society dealt with those things. What's fascinating is how you got to the point where you somehow think it is conservatives that changed all this. I'm not sure how anyone can look at the scope of history over the past few decades and reach that conclusion. In fact, those on this board who are of the left would say it's our rigid adherence to outdated morality and views that is not allowing society to move "forward." Here's an idea. Go around the country and pick out the highest crime, toughest areas to live in and then let me know how many vote Republican. I think you'll see more clearly the enormous, massive, galaxy-sized hole in what you're saying here.



You're basically making the case here for conservative viewpoints. How is it that you miss that?

Hillary was right. That's how successful communities work. Radical individualism is a poison for a society. If you only think about yourself, then you community and society as a whole will fail.

I guess you don't understand Social Contract Theory. And the fact that you don't think it is part of our country means that you missed a lot in government class. Madison took his ideas from Locke and Roussseau.

I know you believe in it because you live in a country that is built on it; power given by the consent of the governed. That we limit all rights at some point for the betterment of society as a whole. That you accept the criminal justice system that is based on decisions of a jury of your peers. And outside of the government, you believe in it. B/C you accept societal standards that change from community to community and state to state.

I don't know what point you are trying to prove with your Republican comment. My problem isn't conservative values, its that Republicans have thrown away their convictions for libertineism masquerading as libertarianism. They argue for strong familes and, correctly, blame most of societies ills on that...except for schools. Then its teachers from tik tok or teacher's unions, or some such nonsense.

 

[Willence]

Again, what is it about teaching real, factual history that you don't like? Why is it bad to learn that our early Americans did some really bad stuff to non-whites? Are we as White males really that insecure in ourselves that we need to perpetuate some fiction that we have done nothing bad? Why is it bad to discuss the realities?

What the hell are you talking about man? The 1619 project is not real factual history. It's a total fabrication. I'm 100% in favor of teaching history as it happened leaving nothing out and sparing no one. We should understand that people's frailties and their strengths have both shaped history. There's been no perfect person throughout history and then when I was growing up there were a lot of our founding figureheads who were portrayed as nothing short of perfect. That's not appropriate. It's amazing the way you leap from one thing to another to try to keep to your point.

 

[yoshi121374]

The left is obsessed with talking sex to elementary school kids

Not true. The left achbowledges that these are discussions that regularly come up in schools when kids are talking to teachers. Discussions about sex are not usually a school age kids favorite thing to talk with their parents about. Particularly if they know that their parents,pastors, community etc says that what they are feeling is wrong or evil. They have to have someone they can go to safely.

The goal isn't to change how anyone feels, the goal is to keep them from killing themselves.

 

[yoshi121374]

What the hell are you talking about man? The 1619 project is not real factual history. It's a total fabrication. I'm 100% in favor of teaching history as it happened leaving nothing out and sparing no one. We should understand that people's frailties and their strengths have both shaped history. There's been no perfect person throughout history and then when I was growing up there were a lot of our founding figureheads who were portrayed as nothing short of perfect. That's not appropriate. It's amazing the way you leap from one thing to another to try to keep to your point.

I will admit I'm not an expert on the 1619 project. My understanding is that it was primarily used in education as a way to I crease discussion, debate, and to see someone else's viewpoint.

It's pretty true that POC haven't been treated well for the vast majority of the founding of America. Hard to argue that.

 

[Willence]

Explain the difference between conquer and stolen?

Every acre of ground on this Earth that humans live on was conquered. That is not some concept that is unique to the United States. In fact even the indigenous peoples here took each other's land via violent means. It's an unfortunate byproduct of the fallen state of humanity that we can't work together and instead we take things from one another. The strong dominate the weak. It will be wonderful if we were better than that. But in this case the word usage is military domination so conquer is correct.

 

[Willence]

I will admit I'm not an expert on the 1619 project. My understanding is that it was primarily used in education as a way to I crease discussion, debate, and to see someone else's viewpoint.

It's pretty true that POC haven't been treated well for the vast majority of the founding of America. Hard to argue that.

What does that have to do with anything here? We're talking about actual history and retelling of events as they transpired. The good the bad and the ugly. As we learn in the Bible, the most common theme is that people will be told what the right thing is and then proceed to try everything else before eventually coming around to what is right. That's true throughout history no matter where you go across the globe.

 

[WapPride]

The left is obsessed with talking sex to elementary school kids

There's good debate itt, and then there's this kind of smooth brained nonsense. Leave the discussions to the grown ups and go enjoy your tub of Elmer's glue.

 

[SDTiger9]

I think what you're talking about is separate from what this person said. Also, as an elected representative from the party that claims to hold the best interests and greatest hopes for empowerment to a group of people who fit that demographic description it is rather revealing of the motivations of the folks who proclaim they are the advocates for these folks rather than their overseers. This kind of commentary has a very condescending, judgmental and air of superiority tone to it.

As a matter of note, since we began teaching sex education in schools, teenage pregnancy, out of wedlock child birth, sexual deviance and the acceptance of all the seedy underbellies of that realm have exploded by an inestimable order of magnitude.

I was VERY impressed by the “Health” class my 11yr old daughter took last summer ONLINE with the PASCO County school district in FL. Kids are granted the option to take classes virtual or in school.
There’s NO REASON whatsoever to limit exposure to natural occurring body chemistry and changes when the child is dealing with the issue themself already. Can’t handle nor want to handle the topic in a classroom? Good, let mom or dad participate with the child at home and help explains things in a virtual class. But just because it’s a naturally occurring uncomfortable topic or major event doesn’t mean you avoid it. (I’m waiting for we can’t discuss August 6, 1945 or the Holocaust or Lawn Darts.)


And very cool, 1 of my sons 9th grade classmates takes 3 classes remote and 3 in person in order to provide him flexibility and handle his social anxiety. He isn’t completely avoiding and he isn’t suppressed all day.

We have to stop this “WE KNOW BEST” and provide the tools and flexibility. And at the end of the day, supply and certify the human being being ready to handle life on their own.

 

[kudzuking]

I don’t live in SC. I live in Maryland, on the Eastern Shore. We do have teacher unions.


I have several friends on the western shore, specifically at Magothy Middle school in Anne Arundel county. It’s being taught …. It may not be taught at your local public schools and it’s not at mine (there isnt much difference between where I live and rural SC. Just no accents and far less Baptists) but is being taught elsewhere.

So you are confirming that anal sex is being taught to middle schoolers as part of the curriculum at Magothy Middle School in Maryland?

 

[firegiver]

Divesting from public schools makes them worse. Schools are failing because we don't value them enough. Teaching requires expensive education and pays dog poop.
We need to stop fighting about banning gay books and such and make sure our schools are properly funded before crying about them performing badly.

 

[Willence]

I was VERY impressed by the “Health” class my 11yr old daughter took last summer ONLINE with the PASCO County school district in FL. Kids are granted the option to take classes virtual or in school.
There’s NO REASON whatsoever to limit exposure to natural occurring body chemistry and changes when the child is dealing with the issue themself already. Can’t handle nor want to handle the topic in a classroom? Good, let mom or dad participate with the child at home and help explains things in a virtual class. But just because it’s a naturally occurring uncomfortable topic or major event doesn’t mean you avoid it. (I’m waiting for we can’t discuss August 6, 1945 or the Holocaust or Lawn Darts.)


And very cool, 1 of my sons 9th grade classmates takes 3 classes remote and 3 in person in order to provide him flexibility and handle his social anxiety. He isn’t completely avoiding and he isn’t suppressed all day.

We have to stop this “WE KNOW BEST” and provide the tools and flexibility. And at the end of the day, supply and certify the human being being ready to handle life on their own.

I obviously got myself pigeonholed into something that I didn't want to here. I do not care if they teach sex education in school. I learned it in school and it was fine. But I also think that we need to acknowledge there are things that go beyond those boundaries now and we should have a very strict and limited curriculum in this area. And while I was wrong about the pregnancy issue among teenagers which is actually sloppy riding on my part more than something I feel, the fact that prevalence of sexual problems in our society has increased is not a false statement. Those things are not my issue public education.

The one thing I would disagree with you about is that I am the parent of my children and I do know what's best for them. They are my children and I will raise them as I see fit within reason of course. I'm going to understand my children and know their means for better than some third party entity or policy at a state level. That's not what our social contract as someone referred to is about. Not in the least.

 

[firegiver]

Come to a public school and you can see what parents are failing. Apples and trees.

What gives me the right is being part of a community. We used to have strong communities that held kids accountable. Parents did their jobs, and the small % who didn't were held accountable by the schools and the community as a whole. We had standards. Once Hillary said "It takes a village" Republicans reflexively rejected that, obviously true, idea and became radically individualistic with their families. "The school can't paddle my child" I can raise me kid to be a POS adult...That's my right! No, we have a social contract with each other; with our families, neighborhoods, communities, states, and then country.

The public school system worked fine for 100 years, the schools didn't change on their own, the parents changed. Schools now are expected to do the jobs of the education and the parents. It's not built to do that at this level. We are passed the critical mass.

The reason that private schools are so effective is because they don't have to deal with discipline problems or academic issues...they can just kick kids out. (Same with the good charter schools) What are you going to do with THOSE kids? That's a pipe dream that will help a small subset of students. You can argue that that is a net good. I would argue that while it could help a few students, it is bad for the community as a whole. Once the standard bearers of a school leave the "middle" will then look to for someone else to imitate...and it will be the "bad" kids.

I've taught for 12+ years now, and the change has been dramatic in that short amount of time. I graduated HS in 2000, and public schools barely resemble the institutions that I was at. The amount of fights, disrespect to adults, lack of academic rigor is amazing. There are many reasons for that (some b/c of the Federal DOE for sure) but mostly b/c of parents. How many kids did you go to school with told teachers/principals to "**** off" on a daily basis, with no repercussions? How many kids did you sit in classes with that turned in nothing, expecting a free 50% and have their parents blame shift to teachers?

I'm not saying schools are perfect, or that their aren't bad teachers/schools, but those things all existed forever, without this level of issue. The independent variable here are parents. If I acted like disrespectful (sometimes I did) my dad lit my behind. My mom wasn't my "friend" who rationalized my bad behavior. She wasn't a "cool mom" who claimed everything I did wrong wasn't my fault. She held me accountable at home. My grandparents chewed me out. If that failed my neighbors grabbed me by the ear/collar and dragged me home to my mom, shaming me down the street. Now they put their hands up and say "it's not my problem"

Republicans bought into this "whatever, man" extreme libertarianism (i was guilty of that for a while too) that has aided in the erosion of community standards. That is what is causing the school problems, not the other way around. You are trying to solve the problem of an aggressive dog by looking at the dog bite on the victim's arm.

Coming from a multi generational SC educator family .. you hit it on the head. Neighborhood schools are suffering and it's the communities fault. Running g away to a private or charter school is fine for the individual but their community will suffer their loss.

 

[scotchtiger]

The average cost of educating a child that the state allocates should be available to every single child in that state. I never said anything about you getting your taxes back. If we did it on that basis (which the property tax system is absurd and should be done away with) then you'd get a huge amount and poor people would get nothing. That's not the objective here.

There's a fundamental reality that we have to face. My wife saw this in the schools she taught in and I see it as well in the things I do. We are in a triage situation in many poor schools. We have to save everyone we can. There are going to be kids that we can't save from their circumstances. There are families we can't save from our circumstances. Take some time out and go minister to homeless people and you'll get a very clear understanding of this reality.

A system by definition is a means of producing results we can replicate. That's why we devise systems. Humans are individuals and one of a kind. Systems are hard in that respect. So what we must do is try to help everyone we can and then we need to find ways to try and help those who fall through the cracks. Right now we're seeing WAY too many people fall through the cracks and on top of that, people who come from privilege are far too often not becoming good people who can help our society prosper. They are far too interested in themselves. We are failing to instill so many important things in our children.

We're going to need to find better ways. By saying one system is plagued with problems isn't saying that we have the best way of doing things ready to go. I'm one guy with an opinion. I have a lot of evidence to support my opinion but I don't have the only viable opinion. I certainly don't have all the answers. But I bet if we came together in good faith we could devise a better way of doing things. Is there anyone on this thread that is going to say that everything is going swimmingly? We had one teacher post in this thread and it sounds like things are a total disaster. So what's the answer then? Just keep going? Just spend more? I don't think that's shown itself to be of benefit at all. We need a new path forward.

I know you are passionate about this and have thought a lot about it, so take a look at my "logistics" post above and reply if you have time. I just can't wrap my head around how you make it work given capacity constraints at private and good public schools.

That said, I still don't agree with your first paragraph. The cost of educating a child is available to every parent, via public school.

This concept of somehow giving someone large sums of money - that most of them will have not paid for - to spend how they want is a weird form of redistribution. Someone who barely pays taxes should get enough to send their kid to Christ our King in Mt. Pleasant? It's $10,249 to educate a child in SC. You are telling me that lower and middle class families should receive checks for $170,000 per kid (K-12, adjusted for inflation) to spend how they want?

Who the heck is paying for that? It's not like the cost of public school will all of a sudden fade away.

 

[Willence]

Wrong. They literally cannot speak with the child about sexuality. What about if the child says their parents don't know and they are terrified to speak with them because they know that their parents feel like they will go to hell of they are gay, etc?

We want to address mental health, but we handcuff our mental health professionals.

LGBTQ Teachers Struggle to Navigate Florida's So-Called 'Don't Say Gay' Law

LGBTQ educators in Florida describe widespread confusion over how much they need to hide their own identities, limit discussion of LGBTQ people or history, or notify parents if a student comes out to them.

time.com

Read this instead of Time Magazine...

House Bill 1557 (2022) - The Florida Senate

www.flsenate.gov

 

[gardentiger]

My wife's PhD is in Public Health, so she's done some work on teen sex/STDs/and pregnancy. It's pretty interesting that abstinence only programs actually do work. Then delay the 1st time for both males and females by just over a year. HOWEVER that is not w/o a cost. Sex is almost invariably unplanned for these kids, so birth control and protection from STDs is generally not used...With predictable results.

It's true. When my niece enrolled at clemson the DEI lady gave a talk in the requisite African garb. She said 4/5 females enrolled at CU will be sexually violated at least once in their 4 years.

 

[Willence]

I know you are passionate about this and have thought a lot about it, so take a look at my "logistics" post above and reply if you have time. I just can't wrap my head around how you make it work given capacity constraints at private and good public schools.

That said, I still don't agree with your first paragraph. The cost of educating a child is available to every parent, via public school.

This concept of somehow giving someone large sums of money - that most of them will have not paid for - to spend how they want is a weird form of redistribution. Someone who barely pays taxes should get enough to send their kid to Christ our King in Mt. Pleasant? It's $10,249 to educate a child in SC. You are telling me that lower and middle class families should receive checks for $170,000 per kid (K-12, adjusted for inflation) to spend how they want?

Who the heck is paying for that? It's not like the cost of public school will all of a sudden fade away.

I think where we are getting messed up is that I'm not saying we should ship kids all over the place. We need good schools IN the communities that are suffering now from very poor educational institutions. There are models that have shown to be more effective. The reality is that a property tax based system provides a very unbalanced means of delivering education. Here's an example. Our family volunteers and supports this mission. In fact, my parents helped found it when we started doing this.

Backpack Blessings Inc

Millions of low-income children in the United States rely on food support from the National School Lunch Program. But when school is not in session, children living in food-insecure households are at...

www.backpackblessings.org

These are children who are almost all on free lunch programs. We provide food for their families over the weekends and we provide additional support to help them at least be well nourished. This is a great school but they have myriad obstacles to overcome. Aside from the lower income nature of the school, there's a high level of transience in the student population there. There is also the reality that most of their parents do not speak English and these kids are the first generation to be born or raised in the United States. The needs here are entirely independent of what the kids in your school might have. A "system" of education can't possibly serve both schools well because of these differences. Also, this isn't to say that a private school is necessarily the solution either. I am not advocating for the abolishment of public education and making things all private. I'm for looking at our system and acknowledging that it isn't working. That funds should follow the children rather than us continuing to fund and force kids into failing schools.

I believe if we have higher standards and expect more of people we will get more in return. There will always be poor people in any society. The goal should be to have as few of those as possible. Right now, we're multiplying not dividing with respect to this population. We have to do better. Public schools have absolutely failed in this regard. We need a better way.

 

[gardentiger]

Poverty is a decent predictor of outcomes. Competition is a decent motivator of competence.

 

[Willence]

Divesting from public schools makes them worse. Schools are failing because we don't value them enough. Teaching requires expensive education and pays dog poop.
We need to stop fighting about banning gay books and such and make sure our schools are properly funded before crying about them performing badly.

We also need to stop misrepresenting and distorting things to suit our narratives. How about we look at the problems of which these circumstances have a place. Our schools are OVER funded because there's no possible way for us to use an education system like we have presently to deal with the problems we face. Teaching doesn't pay dog poop. It's a terrific profession and my wife was well-compensated as a teacher. She also gets a robust retirement plan that would provide her with a good income after she retires.

 

[gardentiger]

I think where we are getting messed up is that I'm not saying we should ship kids all over the place. We need good schools IN the communities that are suffering now from very poor educational institutions. There are models that have shown to be more effective. The reality is that a property tax based system provides a very unbalanced means of delivering education. Here's an example. Our family volunteers and supports this mission. In fact, my parents helped found it when we started doing this.

Backpack Blessings Inc

Millions of low-income children in the United States rely on food support from the National School Lunch Program. But when school is not in session, children living in food-insecure households are at...

www.backpackblessings.org

These are children who are almost all on free lunch programs. We provide food for their families over the weekends and we provide additional support to help them at least be well nourished. This is a great school but they have myriad obstacles to overcome. Aside from the lower income nature of the school, there's a high level of transience in the student population there. There is also the reality that most of their parents do not speak English and these kids are the first generation to be born or raised in the United States. The needs here are entirely independent of what the kids in your school might have. A "system" of education can't possibly serve both schools well because of these differences. Also, this isn't to say that a private school is necessarily the solution either. I am not advocating for the abolishment of public education and making things all private. I'm for looking at our system and acknowledging that it isn't working. That funds should follow the children rather than us continuing to fund and force kids into failing schools.

I believe if we have higher standards and expect more of people we will get more in return. There will always be poor people in any society. The goal should be to have as few of those as possible. Right now, we're multiplying not dividing with respect to this population. We have to do better. Public schools have absolutely failed in this regard. We need a better way.

I just want to commend both of you for having a well thought out argument from both sides. No name calling. A breath of fresh air.

 

[SDTiger9]

I obviously got myself pigeonholed into something that I didn't want to here. I do not care if they teach sex education in school. I learned it in school and it was fine. But I also think that we need to acknowledge there are things that go beyond those boundaries now and we should have a very strict and limited curriculum in this area. And while I was wrong about the pregnancy issue among teenagers which is actually sloppy riding on my part more than something I feel, the fact that prevalence of sexual problems in our society has increased is not a false statement. Those things are not my issue public education.

The one thing I would disagree with you about is that I am the parent of my children and I do know what's best for them. They are my children and I will raise them as I see fit within reason of course. I'm going to understand my children and know their means for better than some third party entity or policy at a state level. That's not what our social contract as someone referred to is about. Not in the least.

You are the parent of your child. You can:
- homeschool
- virtual
- public
- private
- hybrid virtual/in class

You can choose to withhold sex Ed til they are 18. Just homeschool them. But…. on the flip side, I want the access for my child to be educated for actual real historical events and real biological changes as they are happening. You can opt out if you like.

But anyone shunning a person the proper tools for life by the time they graduate isn’t serving their child but I’ll grant you that choice.

(I laughed. Someone posted about that since sex ed has been discussed in class, more pregnancies. Um, sure. It has nothing to do with culture moving away from certain ideologies. It has very little to do with being sex educated and boys and/or girls being completely irresponsible and not giving a sh**.)

 

[BlueRidgedf]

There's good debate itt, and then there's this kind of smooth brained nonsense. Leave the discussions to the grown ups and go enjoy your tub of Elmer's glue.

What's the matter,you can't dress up like a girl and dance infront of 6 years olds anymore?