The poor are just not capable of deciding what's best for their kids so they don't deserve the freedom to choose

[jarrod.moore]

That's not what our social contract as someone referred to is about. Not in the least.

Yes it is. Rights come WITH duties. It is your duty to the community to raise your children right. It's the duty of the community to help you with that job.

Just because you don't understand the social contract doesn't mean that you shouldn't abide by it.

I don't know if you are religious, so maybe this will fall on deaf ears. It's similar to how you owe it to your church community, and for the betterment of the all souls, that you hold your brothers and sisters in Christ to account. It's why when children are baptized that the church members agree that they are part of that child's development

Not that we, or should, live in a theocracy, but those standards are important for a successful community. Despite what the whack job liberals say, Jesus wasn't a hippy "you do you bro" person. But he also wasn't a radical individualist, b/c that is bad for your soul, and the world.

Until we fix that heart problem we will continue to collapse as a nation. That won't happen if everyone retreats to their own corner to live their own life. That is a recipe for implosion.

Schools are part of your community and they should be held to your community standards, and they are a conduit to continue to proselytize those values.

 

[firegiver]

We also need to stop misrepresenting and distorting things to suit our narratives. How about we look at the problems of which these circumstances have a place. Our schools are OVER funded because there's no possible way for us to use an education system like we have presently to deal with the problems we face. Teaching doesn't pay dog poop. It's a terrific profession and my wife was well-compensated as a teacher. She also gets a robust retirement plan that would provide her with a good income after she retires.

You can't buy a house in my town with a teachers salary. To me thats dog poop pay.
What challenges are you trying to reference that our educational system should not be dealing with that they currently are?

 

[Willence]

You are the parent of your child. You can:
- homeschool
- virtual
- public
- private
- hybrid virtual/in class

You can choose to withhold sex Ed til they are 18. Just homeschool them. But…. on the flip side, I want the access for my child to be educated for actual real historical events and real biological changes as they are happening. You can opt out if you like.

But anyone shunning a person the proper tools for life by the time they graduate isn’t serving their child but I’ll grant you that choice.

(I laughed. Someone posted about that since sex ed has been discussed in class, more pregnancies. Um, sure. It has nothing to do with culture moving away from certain ideologies. It has very little to do with being sex educated and boys and/or girls being completely irresponsible and not giving a sh**.)

I said that about more pregnancies. Part of moving away from those ideologies has to do with things like how we educate kids in that area. The further we move from those things, the more permissive things become. Again, there are myriad examples of this I could cite. But that wasn't what I wanted this thread to be about. I should never have gotten into that.

The problem with what you said is the you are inferring that somehow people who get concerned don't want history taught as it happened. Even more, you are tacitly endorsing the idea that accurate history is taught in schools now which is laughable and demonstrably false.

I did opt out. I see how far ahead of other kids mine are and their friends as well. Should it really be the case that I can buy their future success? I don't think so. How does that make us a better country? All it does is make the gap between those who have and those who do not have even wider. I thought the goal was the provide an opportunity to prosperity and self-determination to everyone?

 

[Willence]

Yes it is. Rights come WITH duties. It is your duty to the community to raise your children right. It's the duty of the community to help you with that job.

Just because you don't understand the social contract doesn't mean that you shouldn't abide by it.

I don't know if you are religious, so maybe this will fall on deaf ears. It's similar to how you owe it to your church community, and for the betterment of the all souls, that you hold your brothers and sisters in Christ to account. It's why when children are baptized that the church members agree that they are part of that child's development

Not that we, or should, live in a theocracy, but those standards are important for a successful community. Despite what the whack job liberals say, Jesus wasn't a hippy "you do you bro" person. But he also wasn't a radical individualist, b/c that is bad for your soul, and the world.

Until we fix that heart problem we will continue to collapse as a nation. That won't happen if everyone retreats to their own corner to live their own life. That is a recipe for implosion.

Schools are part of your community and they should be held to your community standards, and they are a conduit to continue to proselytize those values.

Again, how do you define what is right? Should my believe that right is defined in The Bible be forced on others? I think that would be a terrible thing. What you're talking about with church is a community of Faith in God. Our society doesn't have those same standards. Seems to me like we agree more than we disagree. But here's the rub, people have to decide they are going to follow basic standards set for by a society. Where do we get those standards though? My belief is they come from God and His Word in The Bible. Many would disagree vehemently with that. So by what means do I force them to agree? God doesn't force us to agree so why should we?

I care immensely about others. My life is dedicated to service toward others. I believe the biggest problem we have today is that we focus on ourselves rather than focusing on service and love toward others. The less we focus on ourselves, the more impactful our lives become. But again, who am I to force that on others? Who decides what is forced on others and how? If we learn anything from history it is that society has repeatedly created vehicles to do good which ultimately get hijacked by those with ill intentions and ultimately they become a bad thing. We must be very cautious where we place that kind of power.

 

[yoshi121374]

I do want to congratulate and thank everyone(mostly) in this thread for actually having a real discussion and debate. We don't all agree about the how, but I have no doubt all of us care and want to have real discussion. That is so rare these days.

 

[jarrod.moore]

Again, how do you define what is right? Should my believe that right is defined in The Bible be forced on others? I think that would be a terrible thing. What you're talking about with church is a community of Faith in God. Our society doesn't have those same standards. Seems to me like we agree more than we disagree. But here's the rub, people have to decide they are going to follow basic standards set for by a society. Where do we get those standards though? My belief is they come from God and His Word in The Bible. Many would disagree vehemently with that. So by what means do I force them to agree? God doesn't force us to agree so why should we?

I care immensely about others. My life is dedicated to service toward others. I believe the biggest problem we have today is that we focus on ourselves rather than focusing on service and love toward others. The less we focus on ourselves, the more impactful our lives become. But again, who am I to force that on others? Who decides what is forced on others and how? If we learn anything from history it is that society has repeatedly created vehicles to do good which ultimately get hijacked by those with ill intentions and ultimately they become a bad thing. We must be very cautious where we place that kind of power.

But you are actively pushing focusing on yourself!

You're job is to create productive members of society and to hold those in your community to the community standards. We know what is right and wrong, even when we act like we don't. That's why we need to bring shame back to society.

You are right, God doesn't force us to agree, but he dictates that we should behave a specific way, and hold those around us to those values. That's our lot But the individualistic culture, that republicans have also championed, is ruining our society.

That mentality has permeated parents, which has damaged the school system. When I meet with parents and their kids, and tell the parents that the student did something wrong, it is almost a certainty that I will hear "Is that true?" What? Of course it's true, why would I waste my time with a meeting to lie on a kid? When I grew up if a teacher/admin said I did something it was gospel. My mom wouldn't question the veracity of their claims. There was no "you are just picking on my kid!" GTFO. My mom would stare daggers through my soul and then discipline me at home.

Since you have a large % of parents who don't act like my mom anymore, the system doesn't disciple students anymore either. Cause they know they are gonna take a bunch of sh*t from a "cool mom" and won't get supported by the school board.

There are a litany of problems with the school system that need to be fixed. But without responsible parents, none of the other stuff matters. There are plenty of parents who want to hold school boards/schools/teachers accountable. I'm fine with that, it is part of the social contract (and our democratic process) but they need to hold their neighbors and communities accountable too.

It's not hateful to hold others to the community values.

It's also not helpful to hermit into your own cocoon. That is a losing strategy of conservationism today. Abandoning the culture has been their playbook for decades now...hows that working out? Teenagers are getting puberty blockers and their dicks cut off.

 

[Willence]

But you are actively pushing focusing on yourself!

You're job is to create productive members of society and to hold those in your community to the community standards. We know what is right and wrong, even when we act like we don't. That's why we need to bring shame back to society.

You are right, God doesn't force us to agree, but he dictates that we should behave a specific way, and hold those around us to those values. That's our lot But the individualistic culture, that republicans have also championed, is ruining our society.

That mentality has permeated parents, which has damaged the school system. When I meet with parents and their kids, and tell the parents that the student did something wrong, it is almost a certainty that I will hear "Is that true?" What? Of course it's true, why would I waste my time with a meeting to lie on a kid? When I grew up if a teacher/admin said I did something it was gospel. My mom wouldn't question the veracity of their claims. There was no "you are just picking on my kid!" GTFO. My mom would stare daggers through my soul and then discipline me at home.

Since you have a large % of parents who don't act like my mom anymore, the system doesn't disciple students anymore either. Cause they know they are gonna take a bunch of sh*t from a "cool mom" and won't get supported by the school board.

There are a litany of problems with the school system that need to be fixed. But without responsible parents, none of the other stuff matters. There are plenty of parents who want to hold school boards/schools/teachers accountable. I'm fine with that, it is part of the social contract (and our democratic process) but they need to hold their neighbors and communities accountable too.

It's not hateful to hold others to the community values.

It's also not helpful to hermit into your own cocoon. That is a losing strategy of conservationism today. Abandoning the culture has been their playbook for decades now...hows that working out? Teenagers are getting puberty blockers and their dicks cut off.

I would argue that it's not that I push focusing on ourselves. It's more that I don't want any power structures in place telling me or anyone else how they must live or what the rules are. Once you offer up that power to anyone, who decides who the power passes to?

Also, I would argue that conservatives aren't necessarily abandoning the culture. I would say that the culture has abandoned those values and I'm not sure what you want someone like me to do in order to force people to understand. We are in the process of collapsing as a country. I would love to stop that from happening but history demonstrates we're going to have to go through this in order to find a better path forward. The stupidity of it all has a firm foothold and while I engage in the culture constantly, I also know that without fundamental realizations of many important things, we're never going to see things turn around.

 

[Willence]

You can't buy a house in my town with a teachers salary. To me thats dog poop pay.
What challenges are you trying to reference that our educational system should not be dealing with that they currently are?

It's like what I was saying above. I'm just not a believer in one-size fits all solutions to much of anything. The challenges faced by a school in a poor area in the inner city are different than those faced by a school in a wealthy area which are different by those faced in a rural, largely agrarian community.

Also, in this thread I did mention that my view schools cannot fill in the space left by parents doing a poor job right now. We are expecting too much. Yet in other areas, schools seem more than willing to circumvent parents in dealing with other issues. There's not a lot of consistency there.

Buying houses (which is my profession) is a separate problem entirely. The cost of housing is the challenge rather than it being the pay for teachers. Our housing situation is a total disaster at the moment.

 

[SDTiger9]

I said that about more pregnancies. Part of moving away from those ideologies has to do with things like how we educate kids in that area. The further we move from those things, the more permissive things become. Again, there are myriad examples of this I could cite. But that wasn't what I wanted this thread to be about. I should never have gotten into that.

The problem with what you said is the you are inferring that somehow people who get concerned don't want history taught as it happened. Even more, you are tacitly endorsing the idea that accurate history is taught in schools now which is laughable and demonstrably false.

I did opt out. I see how far ahead of other kids mine are and their friends as well. Should it really be the case that I can buy their future success? I don't think so. How does that make us a better country? All it does is make the gap between those who have and those who do not have even wider. I thought the goal was the provide an opportunity to prosperity and self-determination to everyone?

Like I said…. You present the world to your children how you would like. I do not have any grandiose ideas that public education is the answer. But it is PART of the answer. Everything is PART of the answer.
- travel
- sport
- family
- truth, not narratives
- strangers
- cities / rural

Conservative Christian values got 100,000s of children abused within a religious faith. Does that mean you toss it all away? No. I went to an all boys Catholic HS by CHOICE(everyone else in my family was public school and didn’t go to college) to test myself. The education was great, the faith has MANY issues both historical fact and oppressive values. Does it mean we don’t talk about because it’s too hard or sends the “wrong message”? No. We need to know where and how we got here.

It got me to Clemson where I experienced a ton of naive students to the real world and were eaten alive:
- couldn’t handle the academics/dropped out
- couldn’t handle their new freedom with the opposite sex/drugs/alcohol
- couldn’t handle being on their own. Victims of helicopter parents

Many of these folks came from shielded environments.

Bottomline: There is no single answer. But limiting the vast majority real world cause it’s too hot to handle has consequences. You can lie to yourself about what you think the cause is. I so heavily despise the Pub and Dem worlds cause neither of them are searching for truth. They profess garbage narratives to what is important to them. They both suck for society.

A healthy society includes:
- physical activity
- exploration locally/globally even if it’s virtual
- spirituality (in 1 to many forms)
- mathematics
- science (never ending exploration and validation throughout life)
- history (not owned by shitty Dems/Pubs) but validated through multiple local and global sources
- health (in sex/nutrition/fitness education)
- trade
- foreign language

It’s about at this point where you can generate a child to be an adult.

My son attends a PUBLIC high school with 14 trades - electric/marine/cosmetology/digital media/biomedical science/HVAC/pharmacology/robotics/welding/culinary/engineering etc

Real world. Real education. He’s going to France/England next March with about 20 students.

 

[Willence]

Bottomline: There is no single answer. But limiting the vast majority real world cause it’s too hot to handle has consequences. You can lie to yourself about what you think the cause is. I so heavily despise the Pub and Dem worlds cause neither of them are searching for truth. They profess garbage narratives to what is important to them. They both suck for society.

I agree with almost everything you said here. I do not think my choices are limiting my children from experiencing the real world. In fact I had a cousin who was murdered and as time and circumstances were revealed it became apparent that his lack of exposure to what was out there in the real world was a key component of what lead him to disastrous circumstances and ultimately cost him his life. If we shelter our children from reality then once they see it they're blinded by the flashing light and totally unable to handle circumstances. That's not a good parenting in my view.

Conservative Christian values got 100,000s of children abused within a religious faith. Does that mean you toss it all away? No. I went to an all boys Catholic HS by CHOICE(everyone else in my family was public school and didn’t go to college) to test myself. The education was great, the faith has MANY issues both historical fact and oppressive values. Does it mean we don’t talk about because it’s too hard or sends the “wrong message”? No. We need to know where and how we got here.

I bet you won't be surprised to know that I both agree and disagree with you here. Conservative Christian values never did any of these things that you're talking about. That's what sin does and what the power of evil does. If a person commits their life to Christ and follows scripture each day of their life they will never end up in any of these circumstances. They will not stand by while these things are done and they certainly won't participate in them. The biggest problem with people is that they are people and no matter what we believe the existence of sin and the fallen nature of humanity will always be present. That's why we need our faith.

But there's no denying the horrors that have been perpetuated by those who claim to come in the name of God. I don't think we should hide that at all. In fact I think those types of things need to be brought to the surface very early on so the people understand the power of evil and how it can be used to distort and manipulate God's intentions for our lives.

I think it's possible we would have disagreements on certain issues and degrees about things but based on what your philosophy is as described above, I find it hard to argue with you about any of it. The reason I post on political threats all the time is that my most fervent desire is that we can get to a place where those of us who come from different viewpoints can work together to produce a better world for our children. Where I think I lose a lot of people is that I seek to do this without the interference of government in every manner possible.

 

[gardentiger]

But you are actively pushing focusing on yourself!

You're job is to create productive members of society and to hold those in your community to the community standards. We know what is right and wrong, even when we act like we don't. That's why we need to bring shame back to society.

You are right, God doesn't force us to agree, but he dictates that we should behave a specific way, and hold those around us to those values. That's our lot But the individualistic culture, that republicans have also championed, is ruining our society.

That mentality has permeated parents, which has damaged the school system. When I meet with parents and their kids, and tell the parents that the student did something wrong, it is almost a certainty that I will hear "Is that true?" What? Of course it's true, why would I waste my time with a meeting to lie on a kid? When I grew up if a teacher/admin said I did something it was gospel. My mom wouldn't question the veracity of their claims. There was no "you are just picking on my kid!" GTFO. My mom would stare daggers through my soul and then discipline me at home.

Since you have a large % of parents who don't act like my mom anymore, the system doesn't disciple students anymore either. Cause they know they are gonna take a bunch of sh*t from a "cool mom" and won't get supported by the school board.

There are a litany of problems with the school system that need to be fixed. But without responsible parents, none of the other stuff matters. There are plenty of parents who want to hold school boards/schools/teachers accountable. I'm fine with that, it is part of the social contract (and our democratic process) but they need to hold their neighbors and communities accountable too.

It's not hateful to hold others to the community values.

It's also not helpful to hermit into your own cocoon. That is a losing strategy of conservationism today. Abandoning the culture has been their playbook for decades now...hows that working out? Teenagers are getting puberty blockers and their dicks cut off.

"Produce productive members of society" this society? ...That is not the purpose of education. I won't teach my kids that they are a cog in the wheel of consumerism. That all that matters is financial successes and the triumphs of the flesh.

And what is a productive member of society? Who defines that? By what standard?

 

[jarrod.moore]

"Produce productive members of society" this society? ...That is not the purpose of education. I won't teach my kids that they are a cog in the wheel of consumerism. That all that matters is financial successes and the triumphs of the flesh.

And what is a productive member of society? Who defines that? By what standard?

Not a drain on your community; be it financial or societal. That you do your part to help strengthen your community while upholding their standards and values.

Its a pretty baseline level of acceptability of a citizen.

It is the job of education. As well as parents and the community as a whole.

It’s literally what my dad has been telling was his job as a dad since I was like 5.

 

[PAWrocka]

So why is discussing how they were treated historically, and the facts that our government made treaties and didn't uphold our end bad? You admit it's facts, why don't we talk about this?

Many of us on this board, and even in this thread disagree, but we are all discussing it and trying to make our points. I believe talking about issues is how you come to a deeper understanding and potentially better understanding of others points of views. If we don't allow discussion due to fear then this stuff gets far worse.

I take exception with the word "stole". Words and definitions matter.

I have zero issue with discussing history, nor how the native americans were treated. For example, the Lenape tribe were the inhabitants of Manhattan Island. In 1626, the Dutch Indian Trading company came to an agreement with the Lenape and purchased the island. Now, the Dutch settlers took advantage of the Lenape here, because they had no concept of "land ownership". They thought the settlers were crazy because how could anyone "own the land". The agreement was struck, the settlers moved in and began to build their settlement. The Lenape didnt understand the deal they had made, and refused to leave or in some cases attacked outlying settlements/farms. This of course led to the decimation of the Lenape. No matter which way you look at it, the land was not stolen. As with most things, there is nuance ...

But people, the far left especially, over simplify their position by purely just exposing "Land Back" or "Stolen Land". And again, even if those in power were to give the "land back" give it back to who? The Lenape wared with the Onondaga (I believe) and took it from them approximately a thousand years ago? Should we give it back to the Onondaga?

Better yet, why should any Native American tribe get any of the "land back"? If we "follow the science", we accept that Native Americans/Homo Sapiens (hunter gathers) crossed the land bridge from Asia approximately 30,000 years ago. However; relative recent findings show that there were early human (most likely Neanderthals, which is fascinating) in North America as far back as 130,000 years ago? What happened to them, you ask? Well, Native American's most likely committed acts of genocide and/or raped them into extinction. Soooooo should the United States give the land back to the Neanderthals who were wiped out by the Native American? NO of course not, because that is ridiculous!

link to Smithsonian article

Remarkable New Evidence for Human Activity in North America 130,000 Years Ago

Researchers say prehistoric mastodon bones bear human-made markings

www.smithsonianmag.com

I dont know all the specifics of all the treaties that were signed with the Native American tribes, but Im sure the United States isnt living up to what was agree upon. Lord help the Native tribe that finds oil on their reservation. Agreements go out the window ... and that is wrong. The US should live up to the agreements with individual Native tribes, no matter how much they hurt financially. But to say that the land was "Stolen" is absurd, and doesnt drive conversation let alone resolution. Its almost like certain inflammatory inaccurate language is being interjected to purposefully derail conversation.

 

[gardentiger]

Not a drain on your community; be it financial or societal. That you do your part to help strengthen your community while upholding their standards and values.

Its a pretty baseline level of acceptability of a citizen.

It is the job of education. As well as parents and the community as a whole.

Ok then. So long as we all agree you are defining all the things.

 

[jarrod.moore]

Do you think that’s an inappropriate description of the term?

Ok then. So long as we all agree you are defining all the things.

 

[WapPride]

It is my understanding that the Florida law only applies to students up to the 3rd grade.

DeSantis to expand 'Don't Say Gay' law to all grades

The administration of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is moving to forbid classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in all grades. The proposal is scheduled for a vote next month before the state Board of Education and has been put forth by state Education Department, both of...

apnews.com

Looks like Desantis wants it to expand to K-12

 

[PAWrocka]

DeSantis to expand 'Don't Say Gay' law to all grades

The administration of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is moving to forbid classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in all grades. The proposal is scheduled for a vote next month before the state Board of Education and has been put forth by state Education Department, both of...

apnews.com

Looks like Desantis wants it to expand to K-12

So this line right here

Critics of the law say its language — “classroom instruction,” “age appropriate” and “developmentally appropriate” — is overly broad and subject to interpretation.

I would agree, that if that is what the law says, then that is overly broad. I would really question what is meant by "classroom instruction". @yoshi121374 's example, a school counselor discussing with a troubled student? Would that apply? I personally wouldnt think so, but the law should be written in a way where these "restrictions" are clearly defined.

I would add that I dont believe "classroom instruction" on these topics have any place in elementary school, and a firmly reject that kids of that age have any concept of their "sexual orientation", and any elementary school aged kid who is in tune with the "sexual orientation" (beyond being innocently attracted to the opposite sex or same sex for that matter) may have some issues going on at home that maybe concerning.

and I as I said above and elsewhere, I think "gender identity" is complete crap, built on pseudo-science and the musings of a insane pedophile, John Money.

 

[yoshi121374]

So this line right here



I would agree, that if that is what the law says, then that is overly broad. I would really question what is meant by "classroom instruction". @yoshi121374 's example, a school counselor discussing with a troubled student? Would that apply? I personally wouldnt think so, but the law should be written in a way where these "restrictions" are clearly defined.

I would add that I dont believe "classroom instruction" on these topics have any place in elementary school, and a firmly reject that kids of that age have any concept of their "sexual orientation", and any elementary school aged kid who is in tune with the "sexual orientation" (beyond being innocently attracted to the opposite sex or same sex for that matter) may have some issues going on at home that maybe concerning.

and I as I said above and elsewhere, I think "gender identity" is complete crap, built on pseudo-science and the musings of a insane pedophile, John Money.

I would agree and the vast majority of educators would agree that they shouldn't have classroom education on gender identity. I also would argue that they don't have time to teach gender with all of the other curriculum that they have to teach.

My concern and my wife's concern is that this law is so vague that they have scared counselors who do need to have the ability to talk about these subjects with students.

 

[Willence]

I would agree and the vast majority of educators would agree that they shouldn't have classroom education on gender identity. I also would argue that they don't have time to teach gender with all of the other curriculum that they have to teach.

My concern and my wife's concern is that this law is so vague that they have scared counselors who do need to have the ability to talk about these subjects with students.

I don't really find the language in the law to be vague at all. It's very clear and its intention and it's very clear in what it is trying to accomplish. Where do you feel it's unclear? I linked the exact verbiage of the law so please feel free to elaborate on what I'm missing because I would like to hear your view.

 

[PAWrocka]

I don't really find the language in the law to be vague at all. It's very clear and its intention and it's very clear in what it is trying to accomplish. Where do you feel it's unclear? I linked the exact verbiage of the law so please feel free to elaborate on what I'm missing because I would like to hear your view.

sorry Ive been going back and forth with Yoshi, I missed where you link? Can you link again?? please ....Id like to read the current law or proposed change Desantis is making

 

[SDTiger9]

I agree with almost everything you said here. I do not think my choices are limiting my children from experiencing the real world. In fact I had a cousin who was murdered and as time and circumstances were revealed it became apparent that his lack of exposure to what was out there in the real world was a key component of what lead him to disastrous circumstances and ultimately cost him his life. If we shelter our children from reality then once they see it they're blinded by the flashing light and totally unable to handle circumstances. That's not a good parenting in my view.



I bet you won't be surprised to know that I both agree and disagree with you here. Conservative Christian values never did any of these things that you're talking about. That's what sin does and what the power of evil does. If a person commits their life to Christ and follows scripture each day of their life they will never end up in any of these circumstances. They will not stand by while these things are done and they certainly won't participate in them. The biggest problem with people is that they are people and no matter what we believe the existence of sin and the fallen nature of humanity will always be present. That's why we need our faith.

But there's no denying the horrors that have been perpetuated by those who claim to come in the name of God. I don't think we should hide that at all. In fact I think those types of things need to be brought to the surface very early on so the people understand the power of evil and how it can be used to distort and manipulate God's intentions for our lives.

I think it's possible we would have disagreements on certain issues and degrees about things but based on what your philosophy is as described above, I find it hard to argue with you about any of it. The reason I post on political threats all the time is that my most fervent desire is that we can get to a place where those of us who come from different viewpoints can work together to produce a better world for our children. Where I think I lose a lot of people is that I seek to do this without the interference of government in every manner possible.

My friend…. You and I are part of solution because we WANT to reveal life is 31 Flavors and not chocolate or vanilla.

Pubs and Dems want to toss everything into either bucket and your scum if you don’t.

Institutions( can be ANY organization - school/church/company) are the Sin. They protect, they perpetuate, they hide the truth. Narratives are stories to hide reality. This particular game is at a massive crossroads because it went on forever and it’s harder and harder to hide with wide open information . It’s also easier to “hide” by misinformation.

IMO, NARRATIVES are the real Sin of today. Scum building stories to produce outcomes that take POWER MONEY or LEVERAGE from others.

We need a government that serves, not one bent on restrictions and narratives.

And the reason why we are at such a MASSIVE disconnect…. So many institutions were able to shield from the world. They got exposed and the only people to take them forward are the extremists because they hold leaders hostage with whatever nonsense they spew.

 

[scotchtiger]

School choice makes sense in some respects, but I can’t quite figure out the logistics.

Where I live, there is a waiting list for private schools. How are we going to all of a sudden send a bunch of new school choice kids to these places?

Also where I live, we have excellent public schools, in high demand, and at capacity. I’m sure plenty of people will request that their kids go to Belle Hall Elementary or Lucy Beckham HS.

But guess what? I live here, I pay a shitload more taxes (that pay for the schools) than someone requesting to school choice their way in and my kids get 100% priority over any non-resident. There should be 0.00% impact to my kids being able to go to their local, zoned school because of school choice.

And to your point, who would pay for the private school tuition, assuming someone could actually get in? Private schools here are $25K per year or more. Residents aren’t paying anywhere near that and local taxes. You can’t justify giving someone credit or a voucher for more than they actually pay.

So how does it work?

I know you are passionate about this and have thought a lot about it, so take a look at my "logistics" post above and reply if you have time. I just can't wrap my head around how you make it work given capacity constraints at private and good public schools.

That said, I still don't agree with your first paragraph. The cost of educating a child is available to every parent, via public school.

This concept of somehow giving someone large sums of money - that most of them will have not paid for - to spend how they want is a weird form of redistribution. Someone who barely pays taxes should get enough to send their kid to Christ our King in Mt. Pleasant? It's $10,249 to educate a child in SC. You are telling me that lower and middle class families should receive checks for $170,000 per kid (K-12, adjusted for inflation) to spend how they want?

Who the heck is paying for that? It's not like the cost of public school will all of a sudden fade away.

@Willence Appreciate your passion on the subject. Please address the issues above.

 

[WapPride]

Amazing

 

[Willence]

Amazing

View embedded media

More evidence the right can be every bit as ridiculous as the left. That's why no one here should pick a side. Instead choose common sense. That is assuming the story actually tells the whole story.

 

[WapPride]

More evidence the right can be every bit as ridiculous as the left. That's why no one here should pick a side. Instead choose common sense. That is assuming the story actually tells the whole story.

Yeah i didn't read it as it's not up on archive.is yet so i'm not sure what the meat of the article says. However, that publication isn't a biased rag, so i imagine it's fairly accurate to what the title says

 

[BlueRidgedf]

More evidence the right can be every bit as ridiculous as the left. That's why no one here should pick a side. Instead choose common sense. That is assuming the story actually tells the whole story.

Wow, you are making to much sense to be on here.

 

[gardentiger]

Do you think that’s an inappropriate description of the

It's a low bar. But, it's good programming.

 

[Willence]

@Willence Appreciate your passion on the subject. Please address the issues above.

You asked: Where I live, there is a waiting list for private schools. How are we going to all of a sudden send a bunch of new school choice kids to these places?

- One of the things we tend to do is a society is just stop one thing and start another. We leave a huge mess along the way and create more problems than we solve. This situation isn't something we can do that with. It would need to be a gradual process with a lot of choices along the way. I'm not suggesting we completely rid ourselves of public schools. A thriving system of what would traditionally be called parochial schools would need to be a part of this. My own belief is that a school district model like we see now doesn't work very well but that's not to say it doesn't work anywhere. I am positive there are thing we can learn from examining why some things work and others don't to improve what we have.

Also where I live, we have excellent public schools, in high demand, and at capacity. I’m sure plenty of people will request that their kids go to Belle Hall Elementary or Lucy Beckham HS.

- This may not apply everywhere but I have found what are considered excellent public schools are usually just the wealthiest schools and those schools are no where near as good as people make them out to be. It's simply based on test scores. We're not raising calculators. There's a lot more to it than that. So while in the current system, you are probably right that everyone would want to go there, there's a lot of benefit to having a wider variety of schools that provide for a lot more kids than just those in the wealthiest areas. And that leads to a lot more than schooling but something that local governments are equipped to address if they could get past chasing their tails and get to dealing with root cause problems.

I live here, I pay a shitload more taxes (that pay for the schools) than someone requesting to school choice their way in and my kids get 100% priority over any non-resident. There should be 0.00% impact to my kids being able to go to their local, zoned school because of school choice.

- Something that needs to happen is we need to get away from the property tax model for funding schools. It's one thing for local taxes to fund other services but the school situation is far more complex and local funding creates barriers to solving problems. As you know, I believe the dollars should follow the child. If we decentralize our education more then we'll develop more options over time. But if we lock away funds in such a way that the poor do not have access to opportunity, then we're not going to solve anything and will actually make things worse. As conservative and anti-government as I am, there is a need at a societal level for us to make choices that help all in our community and not just the select few. We all benefit from a prospering middle class and we also all benefit from the poor in our communities being able to advance themselves out of being poor through education and opportunity. We incentivize poverty in the same we incentivize low achievement and poor outcomes in our impoverished communities. The single biggest force for good in a community like that can be a great school. A community school that can be fit to serve ALL in a community, even adults seeking to find a way to a better life. We just drop people at 18 and then we stick them into our welfare system. Once you take a close look at it you can't un-see what is there. It's really a life sucking instrument. So while I recognize the need for a 0% impact on your kids, there's also a great need to make sure that all kids have more than a 0% chance at success.

And to your point, who would pay for the private school tuition, assuming someone could actually get in? Private schools here are $25K per year or more. Residents aren’t paying anywhere near that and local taxes. You can’t justify giving someone credit or a voucher for more than they actually pay.

- A lot of people truly want to help others. If we can free up dollars from the current system then we would see a lot more opportunities arise for scholarship, grants and other opportunities for kids who don't have a lot of resources. It's the easiest thing in the world to say something isn't doable but how many are we going to sacrifice to the current system. One thing that Biden said is right. If we want to improve our society, we need to work from the bottom up. The problem with his statement is he thinks that's an economic policy and it isn't. It's a societal imperative and you can't have an economy designed that way. But you can have community goals that pursue that kind of result. We are so fractured and one of the things we need to do is work to rebuild a sense of community and togetherness. The divisions we see now lead to nothing but problems and more division. Again, providing good schooling in an area will be a significant boost to that healing process which is so desperately needed. Part of this would be new schools and new revenue models to provide education. Again, one size fits all doesn't work. It's the lazy way to deal with things.

This concept of somehow giving someone large sums of money - that most of them will have not paid for - to spend how they want is a weird form of redistribution. Someone who barely pays taxes should get enough to send their kid to Christ our King in Mt. Pleasant? It's $10,249 to educate a child in SC. You are telling me that lower and middle class families should receive checks for $170,000 per kid (K-12, adjusted for inflation) to spend how they want?

No, I am not. But I am saying that once we take the pool of dollars and unwind it from the current apparatus we'll see a lot more money to help create far better schools. My kids attend private school at a church. The school we went to for K-8 was a Lutheran school and the tuition was less than $9k/year. We spend WELL over that in our area on a per student basis. My kids got a better education than kids in the area which wasn't a super wealthy area. It was a very diverse learning environment. My kids were minorities in their classes which, for us, was by design. I want my kids growing up in the world so they can see that people are people. We can provide a great education for kids in private schools for reasonable sums. I've seen it multiple places and I know it is possible.

Who the heck is paying for that? It's not like the cost of public school will all of a sudden fade away.

This won't be the most popular answer but one thing that would happen in all this is that people would evolve away from public schools because they have the choice and ability to do so. That would create more opportunities for teachers and administrators to spread their wings and work in new environments. We wouldn't need as many people working in public schools and we could substantially trim the fat in terms of all the layers of bureaucracy in our school systems. That's something that is sorely needed anyway. Again, please show me where there are good results in areas where we need them most. It doesn't all (or even mostly in many cases) fall on the schools themselves for these failures. But nevertheless, we must see what we have and recognize that a new way forward is needed. We can't just give up on all these young people.

 

[WapPride]

DeSantis to expand 'Don't Say Gay' law to all grades

The administration of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is moving to forbid classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in all grades. The proposal is scheduled for a vote next month before the state Board of Education and has been put forth by state Education Department, both of...

apnews.com

Looks like Desantis wants it to expand to K-12

Texas saying "hold my beer"

 

[okclem]

Yet another totally disingenuous argument from the king of talking points