The United States Should Exit NATO. Momentum Building - Europeans Mooching Off American Taxpayer

[CUT93]

Thanks for the post.

For the record i have never justified Russia's invasion. Only argued it's not our problem because Ukraine is not a NATO country. We have no defense agreement with them.

Also, claiming that the war started soley due to Russia's invasion is a lazy man's argument in my humble opinion.

You sidestepped most of my post. I am on the fence as far as helping Ukraine, and that was not really the point of my post. It was that Russia (as a country/govt is bad- not the populace).

You defending Russia in any way is not defensible. It doesn't mean you have to side with Ukraine, or defend them, but defending Russia or implying they are even in the ballpark of being a good country is ridiculous. Based on my limited knowledge, of the people of Russia, I would agree they seem to be mostly good hard working people. The govt and country is, and should be, our enemy.

 

[fatpiggy]

You sidestepped most of my post. I am on the fence as far as helping Ukraine, and that was not really the point of my post. It was that Russia (as a country/govt is bad- not the populace).

You defending Russia in any way is not defensible. It doesn't mean you have to side with Ukraine, or defend them, but defending Russia or implying they are even in the ballpark of being a good country is ridiculous. Based on my limited knowledge, of the people of Russia, I would agree they seem to be mostly good hard working people. The govt and country is, and should be, our enemy.

Saying Russia is indefensible is not a good argument in my opinion. So no new information can change your mind? Ukraine can never be wrong? What kind iof sense does that make? We have to believe was was taught to us in Kindergarten? Should I still believe in Santa too?

Listen, Russian government has done some
Really bad things. But if you are an honest observer and you open your eyes, all the things you hate about Russia has been done by our government.

We are not pure. Our government has done some really really bad things. Framing political opponents. Murdering political opponents. Silencing political opponents speech. Staring wars under false pretenses. Who killed JFK? Who created Covid (it wasn’t Putin) that killed MILLIONS?

I’m going to use my own brain instead of relying on the Cold War mentality that has been ingrained in us since grade school.

Im willing to RESET relations just as the Hillary and the Democratic Party tried to do years ago. Maybe somebody with some competence will succeed.

 

[TheValley91]

Saying Russia is indefensible is not a good argument in my opinion. So no new information can change your mind? Ukraine can never be wrong? What kind iof sense does that make? We have to believe was was taught to us in Kindergarten? Should I still believe in Santa too?

Listen, Russian government has done some
Really bad things. But if you are an honest observer and you open your eyes, all the things you hate about Russia has been done by our government.

We are not pure. Our government has done some really really bad things. Framing political opponents. Murdering political opponents. Silencing political opponents speech. Staring wars under false pretenses. Who killed JFK? Who created Covid (it wasn’t Putin) that killed MILLIONS?

I’m going to use my own brain instead of relying on the Cold War mentality that has been ingrained in us since grade school.

Im willing to RESET relations just as the Hillary and the Democratic Party tried to do years ago. Maybe somebody with some competence will succeed.

You are lost and nothing will bring you back.

To think Putin’s government and our government is the same is devoid of logic and reality.

Russia has done nothing to make good and change anyone’s mind about where their government stands in the world. They want to break down the fabric of what makes our country so strong. That hasn’t changed in decades.

 

[TigerRagRob]

Do you ever read my posts and respond to the words I say?

Why? All you do is lie...

 

[The89Tiger]

I saw an opinion piece this morning that mentioned that JFK worried about a world where 40+ countries had nuclear weapons. The piece then pointed out that one reason only 8 or 9 countries have nuclear weapons is because of the United States commitment to help defend many of our allies.

I had not thought about this, but how would you feel about a world where the U.S. was more isolationist like we are moving towards but 50 countries had nuclear weapons?

Serious question, not pushing one side or another. I had not considered what the world power dynamics and stability would look like with that kind of nuclear proliferation.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

I saw an opinion piece this morning that mentioned that JFK worried about a world where 40+ countries had nuclear weapons. The piece then pointed out that one reason only 8 or 9 countries have nuclear weapons is because of the United States commitment to help defend many of our allies.

I had not thought about this, but how would you feel about a world where the U.S. was more isolationist like we are moving towards but 50 countries had nuclear weapons?

Serious question, not pushing one side or another. I had not considered what the world power dynamics and stability would look like with that kind of nuclear proliferation.

Had a world politics professor talk about the idea of every country having exactly one nuke. Where you could use it, but you'd know you'd get blown away. And a lot of the little aggressions between nations may go away. Was an interesting discussion. Wouldn't trust suicide bomber mentality personally, but made for a fun theoretical.

 

[ANEW]

I saw an opinion piece this morning that mentioned that JFK worried about a world where 40+ countries had nuclear weapons. The piece then pointed out that one reason only 8 or 9 countries have nuclear weapons is because of the United States commitment to help defend many of our allies.

I had not thought about this, but how would you feel about a world where the U.S. was more isolationist like we are moving towards but 50 countries had nuclear weapons?

Serious question, not pushing one side or another. I had not considered what the world power dynamics and stability would look like with that kind of nuclear proliferation.

I 100% belive that the US needs to have a missile defense capabiliy. I don't think that it's ever going to completelly protect the US from a general nuke strike from our big enemies (china , russia) but it would protect us against a small rogue actor.

Edit : fix typo

 

[ANEW]

I think Poland already dropped a comment about building nukes which is probably what spurred that opinion piece.

I don't think a comment from a country should necessarily hold the US hostage to continue to subsidize europe's defense from Russia.

 

[CUT93]

Saying Russia is indefensible is not a good argument in my opinion. So no new information can change your mind? Ukraine can never be wrong? What kind iof sense does that make? We have to believe was was taught to us in Kindergarten? Should I still believe in Santa too?

Listen, Russian government has done some
Really bad things. But if you are an honest observer and you open your eyes, all the things you hate about Russia has been done by our government.

We are not pure. Our government has done some really really bad things. Framing political opponents. Murdering political opponents. Silencing political opponents speech. Staring wars under false pretenses. Who killed JFK? Who created Covid (it wasn’t Putin) that killed MILLIONS?

I’m going to use my own brain instead of relying on the Cold War mentality that has been ingrained in us since grade school.

Im willing to RESET relations just as the Hillary and the Democratic Party tried to do years ago. Maybe somebody with some competence will succeed.

Again, Russia being good/bad has nothing to do with, and is a completely separate issue from whether any other country is good/bad. What in the absolute _____ does who killed jfk have to do with whether or not Russia is bad actor? PLEASE explain that to me.

I explicitly said I was not a Ukraine fan- even though that has NOTHING to do with whether or not Russia is good/bad.

Also, please ask the Russian people you know if they think their govt is good. If they feel like they can give an honest answer, it would likely change your mind.

You keep trying to defend Russia by telling me about Ukraine, china, america etc. Why not tell me about Finland, Argentina, or Kenya? They have as much to do with whether Russia is a bad actor or not.

If Russia takes over Ukraine, anther country will be next. Georgia, Belarus, etc. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not saying we should or should not defend any of those countries, that is not my point so don't start that argument. The point is Russia would invade those countries as well bc they are not good actors.

 

[fatpiggy]

I saw an opinion piece this morning that mentioned that JFK worried about a world where 40+ countries had nuclear weapons. The piece then pointed out that one reason only 8 or 9 countries have nuclear weapons is because of the United States commitment to help defend many of our allies.

I had not thought about this, but how would you feel about a world where the U.S. was more isolationist like we are moving towards but 50 countries had nuclear weapons?

Serious question, not pushing one side or another. I had not considered what the world power dynamics and stability would look like with that kind of nuclear proliferation.

I'm not sure how it would change things. I just looked it up and there are 9 countries that supposedly have nuclear weapons. Some of which are not friendly to us. Would it be different if more of our enemies have weapons? I'm not so sure.

• United States
• Russia
• China
• France
• United Kingdom
• India
• Pakistan
• Israel
• North Korea

 

[fatpiggy]

Again, Russia being good/bad has nothing to do with, and is a completely separate issue from whether any other country is good/bad. What in the absolute _____ does who killed jfk have to do with whether or not Russia is bad actor? PLEASE explain that to me.

I explicitly said I was not a Ukraine fan- even though that has NOTHING to do with whether or not Russia is good/bad.

Also, please ask the Russian people you know if they think their govt is good. If they feel like they can give an honest answer, it would likely change your mind.

You keep trying to defend Russia by telling me about Ukraine, china, america etc. Why not tell me about Finland, Argentina, or Kenya? They have as much to do with whether Russia is a bad actor or not.

If Russia takes over Ukraine, anther country will be next. Georgia, Belarus, etc. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not saying we should or should not defend any of those countries, that is not my point so don't start that argument. The point is Russia would invade those countries as well bc they are not good actors.

Sorry, our government is not on a pedestal compared to Russia. We do really bad things. If you don't want to acknowledge that, that is your prerogative.

I admit Russia is bad. Now you should admit the USA does the same bad things as them.

 

[TheValley91]

Again, Russia being good/bad has nothing to do with, and is a completely separate issue from whether any other country is good/bad. What in the absolute _____ does who killed jfk have to do with whether or not Russia is bad actor? PLEASE explain that to me.

I explicitly said I was not a Ukraine fan- even though that has NOTHING to do with whether or not Russia is good/bad.

Also, please ask the Russian people you know if they think their govt is good. If they feel like they can give an honest answer, it would likely change your mind.

You keep trying to defend Russia by telling me about Ukraine, china, america etc. Why not tell me about Finland, Argentina, or Kenya? They have as much to do with whether Russia is a bad actor or not.

If Russia takes over Ukraine, anther country will be next. Georgia, Belarus, etc. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not saying we should or should not defend any of those countries, that is not my point so don't start that argument. The point is Russia would invade those countries as well bc they are not good actors.

You are wasting your breath. He will go to his grave thinking the United States is the same as Russia. Why? Because his dear leader told him so.

Like you’ve said, we can agree/disagree with tactics Ukraine has taken and even the Biden Administration had some frustrations with them. That’s a reasonable conversation to have.

But if someone is starting from a place that we are equally as bad, then there is no point in talking to that person. They don’t live in a world of facts and logic.

 

[CUT93]

Sorry, our government is not on a pedestal compared to Russia. We do really bad things. If you don't want to acknowledge that, that is your prerogative.

I admit Russia is bad. Now you should admit the USA does the same bad things as them.

That was my only point.

Please show me where I said we have not done bad things. You won't find it, bc I never said or implied it. Yes, we have done bad things. But AGAIN, that has no bearing on whether or not Russia is a bad actor. STILL, there are degrees of bad. Comparing us to Russia is ridiculous. Go live in Russia and see what happens if you say/imply the things you do about what a terrible country we are there. If you think you could have this discussion or the back and forth over several years that has gone on hear about politics in Russia, you are sadly mistaken. I don't think even you believe that. Could you you drive around Russia with a political opponent bumper sticker, or wear clothes(hats, t-shirts, etc) opposing Putin? How do think that would go? Comparing the two countries is asinine. There is no comparison.

 

[fatpiggy]

That was my only point.

Please show me where I said we have not done bad things. You won't find it, bc I never said or implied it. Yes, we have done bad things. But AGAIN, that has no bearing on whether or not Russia is a bad actor. STILL, there are degrees of bad. Comparing us to Russia is ridiculous. Go live in Russia and see what happens if you say/imply the things you do about what a terrible country we are there. If you think you could have this discussion or the back and forth over several years that has gone on hear about politics in Russia, you are sadly mistaken. I don't think even you believe that. Could you you drive around Russia with a political opponent bumper sticker, or wear clothes(hats, t-shirts, etc) opposing Putin? How do think that would go? Comparing the two countries is asinine. There is no comparison.

We can agree to disagree. It is very fair to compare the USA and Russia

Our government framed a political opponent. Forced medical procedures on it's citizens. Censored their speech. Started wars under false pretenses. Released a virus that killed millions, lied about it, and tried to cover it up. Tortured prisoners of war. Tortured animals for "scientific research". Thats a small list of stuff you know about. Imagine what you don't know about.

You just want to ignore that. I won't ignore it, i try to be an honest observer. Those things are awful.

 

[dpic73]

We can agree to disagree. It is very fair to compare the USA and Russia

Our government framed a political opponent. Forced medical procedures on it's citizens. Censored their speech. Started wars under false pretenses. Released a virus that killed millions, lied about it, and tried to cover it up. Tortured prisoners of war. Tortured animals for "scientific research". Thats a small list of stuff you know about. Imagine what you don't know about.

You just want to ignore that. I won't ignore it, i try to be an honest observer. Those things are awful.

Fatpiggy yesterday - - we should unfriend Europe because they don't share our values

Fatpiggy today - - we should befriend Russia because we are both bad


PS- your covid comment proves you're a dishonest lunatic, holy shit

 

[fatpiggy]

Fatpiggy yesterday - - we should unfriend Europe because they don't share our values

Fatpiggy today - - we should befriend Russia because we are both bad


PS- your covid comment proves you're a dishonest lunatic, holy shit

I'm not saying to befriend Russia. Just that they aren't our enemy either. You guys are obsessed with Russia ever since Hillary failed at the reset.

You made up the big Russian collusion lie which backfired. You heard Rachel Maddow lie about Russia for years. I think y'all have a strong anti-russia bias because you believed false reporting for years.

 

[dpic73]

I'm not saying to befriend Russia. Just that they aren't our enemy either. You guys are obsessed with Russia ever since Hillary failed at the reset.

You made up the big Russian collusion lie which backfired. You heard Rachel Maddow lie about Russia for years. I think y'all have a strong anti-russia bias because you believed false reporting for years.

I'm sorry but starting the biggest land war in Europe since World War II that includes rape, kidnapping children, destroying a non-threatening, democratic country's infrastructure and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of their civilians is a pretty relevant reason to see them as an enemy

 

[fatpiggy]

I'm sorry but starting the biggest land war in Europe since World War II that includes rape, kidnapping children, destroying a non-threatening, democratic country's infrastructure and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of their civilians is a pretty relevant reason to see them as an enemy

Ok - The USA invaded and took over IRAQ under false pretenses. Millions died including children. Video evidence of USA torturing their soldiers.

My point is the government you hate and are railing against looks mighty familiar in the mirror.

 

[dpic73]

Ok - The USA invaded and took over IRAQ under false pretenses. Millions died including children. Video evidence of USA torturing their soldiers.

My point is the government you hate and are railing against looks mighty familiar in the mirror.

But we should abandon Europe because they have different laws around speech than we do!

 

[fatpiggy]

But we should abandon Europe because they have different laws around speech than we do!

Ukraine is not in NATO. We don't have an agreement to abandon.

 

[firegiver]

Ukraine is not in NATO. We don't have an agreement to abandon.

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[fatpiggy]

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fair point.

It appears the agreement was signed in 1994 according to Wikipedia.

Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. Then took more from Biden in 2020. We ruled out military confrontation under Obama and Biden.

You know when no Ukranian land was ceded to Russia? During the Trump administration.



Russia breached the Budapest memorandum in 2014 with its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea.[6][7] As a response, the US, UK and France provided Ukraine with financial and military assistance, and imposed economic sanctions on Russia, while ruling out "any direct interventions to avoid a direct confrontation with Russia".[6]

 

[fatpiggy]

Like i said, our values are quickly diverging. This is the shit you see in Russia.

Yeah, Russia is bad, but what exactly are we defending in Europe?

That video is one of many and could be straight from the streets of Moscow.
Thoughts @dpic73?

 

[TheValley91]

Like i said, our values are quickly diverging. This is the shit you see in Russia.

Yeah, Russia is bad, but what exactly are we defending in Europe?

That video is one of many and could be straight from the streets of Moscow.
Thoughts @dpic73?

View embedded media

This happens here.

 

[dpic73]

Like i said, our values are quickly diverging. This is the shit you see in Russia.

Yeah, Russia is bad, but what exactly are we defending in Europe?

That video is one of many and could be straight from the streets of Moscow.
Thoughts @dpic73?

View embedded media

A bigger diversion of values is bombing maternity hospitals and killing pregnant women. Who more closely reflects American values?

 

[okclem]

😂 I finally agree with the sentiment OP is pushing, but only because our inclusion in NATO is now actively harmful to democracy.

Russia would love nothing more than for us to stay in NATO and work from inside to destabilize it, so that is likely what we'll attempt to do, but...

Prepare to have your little retard mind blown @fatpiggy. It's far more likely that NATO gives us the boot than it is we'll exit on our own. And NATO would be very wise to do that as soon as possible. The United States is now a hostile enemy of freedom and democracy.