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They got him now....

Was not anticipating people calling a veteran a traitor on this message board when I work up this morning ......

There were a lot of veterans involved in the whole January 6th mess. They aren't traitors. What they did was wrong, illegal and stupid, but it wasn't traitorous. I find that entire accusation deeply disturbing and that doesn't even get to the part where it happens on this board as well.

Now if we want to get to the part where all these people have been held without trial for way too long... that's something that is traitorous to our most sacredly held principles.
 
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My issue with you here is that you're taking things he said and inferring the meaning you want them to have. It's not what he said but rather your priors with respect to this individual and through use of your priors your interpretation of the meaning behind his statements. It's like I've said about race for years. If you look for a racial offense in everything someone says or does, you're going to come away convinced that person is racist because the way you choose to evaluate that individual begins with the assumption they are racist. It's very hard to escape something when that is true. You see and even seek the worst in everything Trump says. You have a predisposition toward him that makes it such that every stupid thing he says has some escalated and nefarious meaning. When you have someone like Trump who literally never...shuts...up then it's easy to see how we get here from there.

As far as these documents are concerned, many presidents have classified documents with them because the President has the authority to de-classify anything they want to. The director of the FBI stated Hillary Clinton had unlawfully taken materials she shouldn't have and that it was very possible these materials were obtained by a foreign power. She didn't have the power to de-classify anything and she knew it which is why she tried to hide everything. She was not indicted. What's harder to access these days, documents locked in a room in a building defended by the Secret Service or documents held electronically on a server?

I am not saying he should be allowed to commit illegal acts but I am saying what did he do that was actually illegal? Most of what you're talking about is why I dislike Trump intensely but where is the crime? We have quite literally taken a person and tried to find the crime. That's not how justice works. So if you want justice, this isn't how we get it.
FWIW, I totally understand, and agree to a large extent, that there is a difference between unethical vs. illegal.

I won't touch the whataboutism about Hilary, not a fan and if she needs to be indicted for what she did, she should.

I would say that I'm not completely on board with the characterization of cognitive bias and simply fishing for arguments that meet my worldview. I can't completely exclude it, because bias is a funny thing, but I can tell you that I look at people's actions a lot more than their words. There is a pattern of actions and behavior that goes way beyond his tweets. We all have our opinions (like you calling the Mueller investigation a "witch hunt") and we just need to find a way to exchange them with civility, which I think is what your original post was about. In meetings the rest of the day.... talk to you later :)
 
There were a lot of veterans involved in the whole January 6th mess. They aren't traitors. What they did was wrong, illegal and stupid, but it wasn't traitorous. I find that entire accusation deeply disturbing and that doesn't even get to the part where it happens on this board as well.

Now if we want to get to the part where all these people have been held without trial for way too long... that's something that is traitorous to our most sacredly held principles.
I don't think they were calling AllorNothing a traitor but I want to make sure we were not going down that road on this board... I have the upmost respect for all vets and would absolutely have zero tolerance for that
 
Oh it wont just stop with Trump ... It'll be Desantis next or whoever runs as the next republican candidate for office. They (being the media and the left) will smear them and drag them through the mud, already have begun with Ron

Its because the MSM are a bunch of sleazeballs. The opposite of what they say is most likely the truth.
 
So Weissellberg pleads guilty but won't implicate Trump.

Teflon Don lives on. Guess they didn't get him THIS TIME.

What will the little boy crying wolf (the left) cry next time?
 
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So, first of all, several of these guys were convicted. They either admitted or were proven beyond doubt to have committed illegal activities. I'm not sure where the narrative that it just appears biased comes from. If Dems or Repubs commit a crime, they should pay. End of story. And more and more people from Trump's circle are found to have been guilty. Yesterday, the CFO of the Trump Organization pled guilty.

Which leads to your next point, why hasn't Trump been arrested. First, Mueller clearly stated they had had evidence of a crime but that it was long standing DOJ policy since 1973 to not bring charges against a sitting President. So, he got a free get out of jail card and immediately tried to spin it as vindication. Mueller saying he can't legally charge the President isn't the same as the President not having done anything wrong. Also, Mueller said he couldn't reveal what the charges were because Trump wasn't going to have a trial to defend himself. So, until these documents are unsealed and the truth revealed, Trump is parading around pretending he did nothing.

Second, Trump wasn't going to have his own DOJ investigate him while in power. And he had the backing of a lot of Republicans to prevent impeachment. His second impeachment (Jan 6) had the largest bipartisan support of any impeach President (57-43) and some Republicans like McConnell said he was absolutely guilty but he still voted no. Do you really expect the Republicans in power to relinquish power? Again, you have senators saying Trump was obviously guilty (yet voting no), why are people saying it shows Trump wasn't guilty?

Third, Trump rewards loyalty, look at the Roger Stone pardon. So, as long as there is the appearance that supporting Trump could be beneficial, his entourage will continue to protect and shield him.

Finally, why the victim blaming? For instance, if Trump hadn't taken the confidential documents, this latest scandal wouldn't have happened. Why are people always blaming the FBI or cops having to investigate his wrong doing? So, I'll turn the question around to you. Everywhere people look around Trump, there's unethical and illegal activity happening (fraud at Trump Org, etc.). Why are people blaming the people investigating these actions instead of the people committing them?
So all good points you make, some could be countered but rather than extend this lengthy debate my only question is the left, MSM and the folks on this board have stated multiple times that the DOJ/FBI are both independent organizations that operate with full autonomy from the white house You're suggesting above that Trump controlled the DOJ.......I guess we have a mismatched understanding and you're either admitting that Biden likely instigated the warrant or Trump had no say in whether or not he was investigated while in office? Both can't be true.

Have said it before and will say it again, if he's guilty he's guilty......let's get the indictment done and start the trial so the country can get on with it. My only concern is if his rights as an American are being infringed upon as that sets up a precedent that it's ok to do to the rest of us. Outside of that, I do not care if he's prosecuted for breaking the law.
 
So all good points you make, some could be countered but rather than extend this lengthy debate my only question is the left, MSM and the folks on this board have stated multiple times that the DOJ/FBI are both independent organizations that operate with full autonomy from the white house You're suggesting above that Trump controlled the DOJ.......I guess we have a mismatched understanding and you're either admitting that Biden likely instigated the warrant or Trump had no say in whether or not he was investigated while in office? Both can't be true.

Have said it before and will say it again, if he's guilty he's guilty......let's get the indictment done and start the trial so the country can get on with it. My only concern is if his rights as an American are being infringed upon as that sets up a precedent that it's ok to do to the rest of us. Outside of that, I do not care if he's prosecuted for breaking the law.
Trump and his supporters are investigated by the media, and are fake informants for the FBI and the Justice Department. Information on Biden, Hunter, and others are suppressed or ignored by the media.
 
Please.. They don't have him. Trump tells everyone that listens that he's in charge of all his companies and knows everything about them. Under oath, he either pleads the 5th or claims he had no idea what was going on. This will be more of the same.

In before Trump throws his CEO under the bus for "stealing" money from the company instead of admitting he offered improper compensation.
 
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Oh it wont just stop with Trump ... It'll be Desantis next or whoever runs as the next republican candidate for office. They (being the media and the left) will smear them and drag them through the mud, already have begun with Ron
Yes, but it’s not left vs right. It’s establishment vs anti-establishment. But yeah, I keep telling people this… Whoever runs against the DC rot will get the full Trump treatment going forward. They’ll slander and investigate and attempt to tie the candidate back to Trump. And the establishment lackeys will eat it up just like they have the past 5 or 6 years
 
For someone that was supposed to drain the swamp, Trump's entourage sure loves to break the law. From a quick google search:

But hey, they're probably all innocent, they are victims of the new liberal world order that is being run out of a Waffle house in LGBT San Francisco , and like Trump, they are simply paragons of virtue that are misunderstood, right?
Do NOT underestimate the power of Waffle House.

They already control the disaster response activities of the US Government.
 
By any legal measure he didn't incite violence. He certainly was unacceptably quiet while the riot was going on. He should have spoken out a lot sooner.
True, probably. I would agree he should have called for calm. Did he want them to riot? Probably.

Did he want them to hang Mike Pence? I have my doubts.
Hell, I would have gone down there to try and stop things if I were in his shoes that day. That's just reality.
I seriously doubt the Secret Service would have let him. And as I understand it, they have the authority to stop the President from putting himself in danger.
The Mueller investigation was a witch hunt. A lot of the indictments from that were related to people falling into perjury traps and other illegal activities. There have been about five or six major investigations into Trump and none have been all that impactful.
Agreed. It was a waste of time at the very least. "Hey, let's investigate the President but we can't indict him because he's the President." So what was the fvcking point?

I'm not saying they could have othewise indicted him.
Probably because being a petulant, dishonest egomaniac isn't really criminal. Hell, we just saw a Fauci talking about all the wonderful things he represents to the acclaim of our media when everything he said was pretty much false. We have egomania everywhere. It's a sickness in this country that reaches well beyond Donald Trump.
If that was criminal, most politicians would have to be locked up. And most CEOs.

I can give Fauci some leeway on COVID because the knowledge was evolving.
 
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I am not sure I understand your point. Justice is justice, it doesn't matter who it applies to and it doesn't matter how much it costs to exercise it. This is like saying we should never go to war to protect America because it will be expensive in terms of equipment.

Watergate, Benghazi, etc, there have been plenty of times where people were investigated. Are you saying Comey shouldn't have brought up the emails so that Hilary could become President? He did the right thing, they found new evidence and he told everyone she was under investigation. Totally fine by me.

Turns out Trump is doing plenty of things that put him under the scrutiny of the law. He has gotten off on a couple of technicalities (like the Mueller stuff) and people are pretending he was vindicated. What he did with Jan 6 led a majority of the Senate to find him guilty, including several Republicans. If he does 50 illegal acts, I have no issues with there being 50 investigations.

You and I may have different definitions of "conservative", especially fiscally speaking. I am against big government spending and feeding the entitlement mindset. But investigating someone who asked the Proud Boys to stand down and stand by, told them to be here on Jan 6 "it will be wild", and encouraged them to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power, why would we let that go uninvestigated? Someone that asked the guy in Georgia to "find me the votes" to overturn a loss in Georgia, why would let that go uninvestigated? Someone that took classifieds national security level documents to a golf resort, why would we not try to get these back? Are you saying we should just let him do illegal acts because we are tired of all these investigations and the associated expenses? Dude, you think I am happy we're spending all this money? But we're having to because he keeps doing it. Why would we give him a free pass? Why would we give anyone a free pass for that matter? I don't care if it's Hilary, Biden, Trump, anybody doing this type of shit needs to be investigated.
Show me where he did this. Did he encourage protests? Yes, but not violence. At his speech on Jan6, he specifically called for PEACEFULL protests - the exact opposite of what you claim. You can argue he did not do enough, but he tweeted at least twice for people to go home and for no violence after the capital breech.
Just to be clear, I support being able to protest at he capital, but the breech/damage/etc of any govt building should not be tolerated. I have said multiple times there should have been warnings given that that anyone attempting to breech the building would be shot and they should have done exactly that. You simply can not allow people to breech the capital.
In what was evidently a miracle, the only people that breeched the building were the ones that happened to have no guns, knew nothing about the building or where legislators were, had no information on exit strategies, had no plan on how to get through locked doors, and were more interested in talking selfies in govt offices than actually intending to harm legislators. Thank goodness all the people with the actual intent of stopping the transfer of power stayed outside, right?

As for the "find me the votes" - He thought there was massive voter fraud in GA. His comment to "find the votes" was directly referencing what he thought were illegal votes. Whether or not there were in fact illegal votes has no bearing on his intent, or meaning. He was basically asking to find enough evidence of illegal voting to change the result. What is wrong with him asking to find evidence of illegal voting if he thought that was the case?
 
True, probably. I would agree he should have called for calm. Did he want them to riot? Probably.

Did he want them to hang Mike Pence? I have my doubts.

While I have no evidence of this, I do think knowing the man as we do that it is entirely plausible that he sat back and laughed at the start of the Capitol riots. He's a massive egomaniac so I don't find that at all hard to believe. And yes, that is beneath the office of the President and a violation of his oath of office in my opinion.

If that was criminal, most politicians would have to be locked up. And most CEOs.

I can give Fauci some leeway on COVID because the knowledge was evolving.

No leeway to Fauci because of things like this:



And this is even before we start talking about how many people he killed in the AIDS epidemic before taking credit for saving lives. The guy is a bad, bad dude.
 
Show me where he did this. Did he encourage protests? Yes, but not violence. At his speech on Jan6, he specifically called for PEACEFULL protests - the exact opposite of what you claim. You can argue he did not do enough, but he tweeted at least twice for people to go home and for no violence after the capital breech.
Just to be clear, I support being able to protest at he capital, but the breech/damage/etc of any govt building should not be tolerated. I have said multiple times there should have been warnings given that that anyone attempting to breech the building would be shot and they should have done exactly that. You simply can not allow people to breech the capital.
In what was evidently a miracle, the only people that breeched the building were the ones that happened to have no guns, knew nothing about the building or where legislators were, had no information on exit strategies, had no plan on how to get through locked doors, and were more interested in talking selfies in govt offices than actually intending to harm legislators. Thank goodness all the people with the actual intent of stopping the transfer of power stayed outside, right?

As for the "find me the votes" - He thought there was massive voter fraud in GA. His comment to "find the votes" was directly referencing what he thought were illegal votes. Whether or not there were in fact illegal votes has no bearing on his intent, or meaning. He was basically asking to find enough evidence of illegal voting to change the result. What is wrong with him asking to find evidence of illegal voting if he thought that was the case?
i didn't know they went in the back door of the capitol? hmm. you learn new and different facts on here everyday.
 
Agreed. It was a waste of time at the very least. "Hey, let's investigate the President but we can't indict him because he's the President." So what was the fvcking point?

I'm not saying they could have othewise indicted him.

Donald Trump is like Doomsday in DC Comics. The more you throw at him trying to damage him the stronger and more massive he gets. He was losing influence before all this crap. I wish people would have just let him fade away. I'm so frustrated by that. He is not a conservative and he certainly wasn't a conservative president. At least not in the ways that I feel are important.
 
he's been dead since 2018, so yeah it was more than a few months ago
Oh well then yeah if that happened when he passed then definitely before my time here lol, i joined last November. For the record i definitely do not see him as a traitor and was opposed to the way DJT treated him.
 
I don't think they were calling AllorNothing a traitor but I want to make sure we were not going down that road on this board... I have the upmost respect for all vets and would absolutely have zero tolerance for that
I wasn't. I have the utmost respect for veterans. I have been a monthly donor to Wounded Warrior Project for 7 years now and donate yearly to USO for Memorial day.

The Jan 6 rioters is who I have been calling traitors in a number of posts. That people would consider themselves patriots and bring weapons and violence to the Capitol, hurt dozens of law enforcement officers to get access to the building, all that to prevent the counting of the electoral votes and prevent the peaceful transition of power that has been a bedrock of our democracy for 200+years, well, that doesn't sit well with me.
 
Have said it before and will say it again, if he's guilty he's guilty......let's get the indictment done and start the trial so the country can get on with it. My only concern is if his rights as an American are being infringed upon as that sets up a precedent that it's ok to do to the rest of us. Outside of that, I do not care if he's prosecuted for breaking the law.
Totally agree with you. 100%. And I understand your concerns regarding potential overreach. Certainly don't want the judicial to be a weaponized arm of whoever is in power.
 
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The Jan 6 rioters is who I have been calling traitors in a number of posts. That people would consider themselves patriots and bring weapons and violence to the Capitol, hurt dozens of law enforcement officers to get access to the building, all that to prevent the counting of the electoral votes and prevent the peaceful transition of power that has been a bedrock of our democracy for 200+years, well, that doesn't sit well with me.

The irony is by your definition Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc. were all traitors. We need to be careful with what we say. And before people overreact, no, I am not comparing water buffalo man to our founders.

Another irony is that no one has ever bothered to ask why people are so worked up now? What's caused this massive temperature change in our politics. We have massive disenfranchisement issues in rural communities in the United States. It's an ever growing problem and will eventually become a fatal one if we don't start to work together and listen rather than labeling people with such awful terms. Gerrymandering has done incalculable harm to our national fabric and the ability of our government to function as it was intended. We can't just fix things from here. We're going to have to go back and find different paths forward.
 
Totally agree with you. 100%. And I understand your concerns regarding potential overreach. Certainly don't want the judicial to be a weaponized arm of whoever is in power.

It already is. It's right in front of all of us. We just hate Trump so much we aren't seeing things as they are.
 
There's a bunch available but I am hoping that you will find Time reasonable enough (not sure which outlet people will "believe". Here's a reasonably detailed explanation. Mueller didn't think a sealed indictment would be safe (too many leaks) so, he crossed that option either. He was left with the only neither fish nor fowl option of not indicting him but not exonerating him either.


Defendants normally have a chance to clear their name in a trial​

Mueller then notes that defendants have a constitutional right to clear their name of criminal accusations through a speedy trial. By contrast, if prosecutors were allowed to impugn their reputations without charging them with crimes, it would be unfair.

“The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case,” he wrote. “A prosecutor’s judgement that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator.”

It would be unfair to say Trump committed a crime without offering him a chance to clear his name​

Because Mueller’s team can’t indict Trump, it also can’t give him the opportunity for a speedy trial to clear his name, Mueller reasoned. He decided that his team would therefore not make an announcement that Trump had committed a crime — such as obstructing justice — despite the facts it uncover.

“The concerns about the fairness of such a determination would be heightened in the case of a sitting President, where a federal prosecutor’s accusation of a crime, even in an internal report, could carry consequences that extend beyond the realm of criminal justice,” he wrote.

Even a ‘secret indictment’ could still leak​

Mueller also ruled out another option, which would be to obtain a sealed indictment against presidents that would not become public until after they leave office would not work because they could be leaked.

“‘It would be very difficult to preserve [an indictment’s secrecy,’ and if an indictment became public, ‘[t]he stigma and opprobrium’ could imperil the President’s ability to govern,'” he wrote, quoting the Office of Legal Counsel memo.

Prosecutors could still clear the president, but they declined​

All that said, Mueller also said that he did not rule out publicly clearing the President of wrongdoing, either. But based on the facts his investigators uncovered, he decided not to do so.

“If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state,” he wrote. “Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgement.”

“Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him,” he added.
 
No you and your giant poosay butt buddies cried and had it removed because you can’t handle a picture on the internet

Says all that needs to be said about your lack of fortitude

Just to satisfy the mobs JoeBidenSniffsKids may i suggest instead of a swatstika that you consider a demonic symbol or maybe a Druid Pagan symbol

i have heard them sre the rage and are so the symbol of the month
 
A buddy is playing at Bedminster today and said Trump teed off in front of them this morning, would appear he's not that worried and would also appear he hasn't been arrested yet. Fwiw
America will not tolerate Trump in jail unless Hillary goes with him. She is 10x the criminal.
 
The irony is by your definition Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc. were all traitors. We need to be careful with what we say. And before people overreact, no, I am not comparing water buffalo man to our founders.

Another irony is that no one has ever bothered to ask why people are so worked up now? What's caused this massive temperature change in our politics. We have massive disenfranchisement issues in rural communities in the United States. It's an ever growing problem and will eventually become a fatal one if we don't start to work together and listen rather than labeling people with such awful terms. Gerrymandering has done incalculable harm to our national fabric and the ability of our government to function as it was intended. We can't just fix things from here. We're going to have to go back and find different paths forward.
I get what you are saying. I disagree with the first paragraph but couldn't agree more with the second.

The path to a solution is definitely trying to understood the root causes, instead of just attacking each other. Not sure how we go about that though. Do you think either party would ever have any political motivation to address this problem? What could force them to tone down the rhetoric and compromise?

FWIW, I'm very intrigued with ranked choice voting, open primaries, and term limits. This could potentially mitigate gerrymandering and get us better representatives (I hope).
 
A buddy is playing at Bedminster today and said Trump teed off in front of them this morning, would appear he's not that worried and would also appear he hasn't been arrested yet. Fwiw

Trump has nothing to worry about except his putting

After being examined in every conceivable manner over the last 6 years without a shred of direct evidence tieing him to any criminal act i will say he is close to lily white innocent

i would also take any bet that if every Senator was investigated as hard as Trump they would all be found guilty of something

Trump is good to go
 
A buddy is playing at Bedminster today and said Trump teed off in front of them this morning, would appear he's not that worried and would also appear he hasn't been arrested yet. Fwiw

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Donald Trump is like Doomsday in DC Comics. The more you throw at him trying to damage him the stronger and more massive he gets. He was losing influence before all this crap. I wish people would have just let him fade away. I'm so frustrated by that. He is not a conservative and he certainly wasn't a conservative president. At least not in the ways that I feel are important.
I agree. Trump is not good for the country, conservatives in general, or the Republican party (don't care so much about that one).

If they would let him fade away, perhaps we can get a President who a) knows something about decorum, and b) knows where the fvck he is.
 
I agree. Trump is not good for the country, conservatives in general, or the Republican party (don't care so much about that one).

If they would let him fade away, perhaps we can get a President who a) knows something about decorum, and b) knows where the fvck he is.

republicans blaming democrats for Trump is pretty damn rich.
 
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