This is Trump's Republican Party
- Thread starter DW4_2016
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The fact that he lost the election is easy. It's the other facts where things sort of get mixed up. Like the media saying the Hunter Biden mess was Russian disinformation when it wasn't. That they didn't cover it at all and that it was blocked as a fake story when it was real. That's just one example. If you don't see how partisan and dishonest the media is, I don't know what to tell you. If you want to see our nation come together, your part in this is understanding that the media is an arm of the left and they will do anything and everything to keep power. We need honesty. No one on either side should be afraid of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth being out there. If one side is afraid of that, then it is because they are wrong.
No, because I don't have to hide anything. We are still in America right? Hasn't turned into China just yet........
Oh right......because you're a democrat so it's not feasible that they might not be good people either right? Yep, got it.........
to be fair this is the most civil these discussions have been in some time it seems
Ive never said that he’s perfect. He’s not a politician, and as such says things that have unintended consequences, yes. 100%. The problem here is that those on your side want to blame everythjng bad that happens on Trump’s rhetoric, while simultaneously giving the media a pass for literally everything. There’s no nuance that you all love to talk about so much. Just blame blame blame all directed at one party
He’s the president and has to understand that his words have major impact. But the media is arguably more influential and they’re never held accountable for their own missteps
He’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. His words are going to be twisted and reshaped to frame whatever narrative the media wants. If he says the sky is blue the media is going to twist it to use against him
What was real? That Hunter Biden dropped off a laptop to some random guy in the middle of nowhere, and that person illegally accessed his files and sent them to the FBI and Rudy Giulliani? You think that story is real?
Thank you for saying this. I think it is an important acknowledgement.
Unfortunately, Mo Brooks and his conspiratorial ilk are still in the House and a third of elected republicans wanted to overthrow democracy yesterday and appoint Trump as president/dictator. The rot amongst Qanon, MAGA folks who have indulged in conspiratorial garbage is strong and deeply rooted.
Wait wait wait - what is the evidence that the Hunter Biden mess wasn't Russian disinformation? There MAY be a legitimate investigation into Hunter, but that doesn't mean that whole laptop shenanigans didn't stink to high heaven. We know for a fact that Rudy was getting played by Russian intelligence.
See, this is the problem. I actually think you mean well and I apologize for lumping in you in with some of the bad faith Trumpers in earlier posts. But here you're assuming and asserting that right-wing talking points are true when they actually aren't. You're buying the right-wing media's garbage spin about legitimate media.
Listen, I'm not saying the legitimate media is perfect. I actually think they bend over backward to try to appease conservatives instead of just reporting things straight, but that's another discussion. Beyond that they get things wrong from time to time. But, no, they generally aren't "partisan and dishonest." And there's no equivalence between, for instance, CNN and ONN.
And I’ve never bought into the idea that the courts were going to overturn any of this. It was always a huge waste of time
Man, you are the kind of the strawman argument.
There are plenty of Republicans who are good people, though a lot fewer than the used to be. Mitt Romney has shown incredible leadership. Even Ben Sasse, who I think is a crazy right-winger, has also shown that truly loves America.
But, the fact is, we've known who Trump was. And the people like you who have been supporting him for the last 3-4 years even as he encouraged violence and praise Nazis have blood on your hands. You made this.
There ARE good Republicans. It's just that you and our ilk are not them.
Right. 2/3 of the House GOP voted last night to legitimize the coup attempt and overthrow the duly elected government of the US. Republicans may want to pretend they never backed Trump, but this stench won't wash away easily. Nor should it. The Republicans who aided and abetted this treason - especially those who continue to do so - will be held accountable. Voters won't forget this so easily.
The impact of his words is that you and millions of his other minions take his word as gospel. You belong to a cult, and you are brainwashed. You fell for a con, and now the country is perilously divided because of his words. Yesterday you were on here posting "burn it down" as terrorists assaulted the Capitol Building, because of his words. You worship a man who has intentionally sowed the seeds of division since day 1. Stop with the bullshit. It's over.
Speaking of the right-wing echo chamber. This profile of the woman who was killed is a disturbing summary of how it radicalizes people:
www.nbcnews.com
Woman killed in Capitol was Trump supporter who embraced conspiracy theories
Social media profiles connected to Ashli Babbitt were almost singularly focused on radical conservative topics and conspiracy theories.
www.nbcnews.com
Here’s the thing. You and your ilk want to push this narrative that he came in and created all these false scenarios of corruption and crime on the left. Not what happened.
He didn’t concoct all these crazy ideas in his head and sell them to half the country. He simply said things that we all felt all along. The fake news was doing their thing well, well before Trump came along. There was very little impartiality during the Bush and Obama years. Obama, in the eyes of the media, has never done wrong. People recognized the extreme bias well before Trump.
He was way over the top frequently during his 4 years in office. Mainly, IMO, by design. He had to be forceful to cut through the legacy media’s lies. He had to equalize the playing field. He didn’t come in and radicalize anyone, he simply showed everyone that didn’t yet realize it that they had been misled and lied to for years, decades
He said today he didn’t agree with the election results, but he was going to step aside on the 20th and relinquish power to Biden. There you go. Example #53927736 of the media pushing a bullshít narrative(tyrant, dictator, etc), and you people taking it hook line and sinker. Oh the irony
You look through Liberal glasses bud. The man is fvcking nuts, but if all he did was further peace in the Middle East, he did well. But that's not all the good he did. NAFTA is gone. The worst of the parts of Obamacare that were bold faced lies from your savior Mr. Obama were repealed. I can go on. It's GD apparent you only hear and spew the media's agenda. You're Woke bud.
Encouraged a violent attempt to overthrow our government.
Ignored the biggest public health threat in a century, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans and huge damage to our economy.
Passed a tax plan that put our kids $2 trillion more in debt in order to give more handouts to big corporations and the wealthy while doing noting to improve the economy.
Allowed North Korea to more than triple their nuclear arsenal and develop a missile that can hit the US while giving Kim Jong Un huge propaganda victories in return for nothing.
Blew up the successful efforts to prevent a nuclear-armed Iran allowing Iran to stockpile enough fissile material to build a bomb.
Launched and lost a trade war with China, further damaging the US economy and then spent tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to bailout the farmers that he had decimated. Meanwhile, he has allowed our trade deficit to hit an all time high.
Eliminated more than 100 environmental safeguards, putting the health and future of our kids at risk.
Refused to stand up to Russia when they paid bounties for the murder of our troops.
Allowed the biggest cyber-attack in our nations history and then did nothing to hold Russia accountable for perpetrating it.
And that's just a start. No wonder historians already rank Trump as one of the three worst presidents of all time.
These are arguments I'd love to get back to. You're just wrong on this count. There's a measure by which you can weigh things. The very idea that without the lower taxes that the economic output would have been the same is just not something that anyone can verify and history doesn't bear it out. You're worried about debt now? Since when?
People like you often talk about the big handouts to corporations. It wasn't a handout. It was a tax reduction and that tax reduction also helped every small business in America. You are a walking talking point my friend. Please think for yourself in the future. The reason wealthy Americans benefited more from the tax decrease was because they make more money. As a percentage of income (which is the only way to equally measure something) they benefited far less. This was a middle class tax cut. It's hard to cut taxes much more for people who don't pay income taxes to start with. Other than being wrong on almost every fact because you're quoting Media Matters and stuff like that, you're off to a great start. Keep on keeping on though.
I could go into all your other points which are wrong but that would be a waste of time. Suffice it to say, you're just not right about these things. And your viewpoint is singular based on what you want things to be and not what they are. That's a travesty.
Almost EVERY President has made made some positive contributions and some negative contributions to the Republic. It's never been all one way or another. The same is the case for this President. The same was true for President Obama. That you can't see these things and you only want to shine the light in a way that the shadows reflect what you want to see is telling. It makes you worthy of being a member of today's media as well. Go claim your job sir and Godspeed to you!
My savior? Who are you even talking to? Don't come at me accusing me of politician worship.
Nafta is gone? I mean in name yes it was repackaged and put forth as USMCA. Its essentially exactly the same thing, there are some cosmetic changes that will have some small economic impact. So if anything cool its a completely neutral policy to pass I guess.
Peace in the middle east. I'm really rooting for that one. However, I'm pretty sure the biggest issue is still ongoing: Iran. The revolutionary guard has gotten stronger and while yes we've defintely had some wins against Sunni terrorists, the state sponsored Shiates are having a hey day with their angular warfare. Trump threw away a well negotiated nuclear deal with them, with no plan in place. This was not a smart move.
Anway, its always nice to be talked down to and called names by someone who knows zilch about my outlook and knowledge.
Trump's a disaster. GOP is in the gutter split on whether or not a make up conspiracy concocted by internet trolls is real and whether a stupid coup is still a coup.
Dont forget... he shut down the government to get wall funding (that he somehow was unable to get in the two years that repubs owned congress and senate). When that failed, he diverted money away from the military construction account (that builds new veteran hospitals). Oh, and that wall has proven to be easily scalable and parts of it are already falling down.
I’d love to get into all of this in a respectful debate. Can’t do that right now but I’ll try to get back to that later, but remind me if I don’t.
Lololololololol. WTF is this? Some of you have lost your minds to partisanship.
One side has a core platform position to take money away from my family and use it to permanently implement new entitlement programs that I, my children, my children's children, etc. will pay for. So because I voted against that, I'm somehow linked to the the loons that acted like assholes yesterday?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
This is the kind of stuff that just completely erodes your credibility. Again, screw Trump. He's an asshole, but this this is the type of false rhetoric that kills our ability to converse with civility.
Walk me through where he praised Nazis. Are you talking about Charlottesville? Where he said this:
As I said on -- remember this -- Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence. It has no place in America.
Those people -- all of those people -- excuse me. I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists, by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue, Robert E. Lee.
Excuse me, excuse me. (inaudible) themselves (inaudible) and you have some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.
Well, I think the driver of the car is a disgrace to himself, his family and his country. And that is -- you can call it terrorism. You can call it murder. You can call it whatever you want.
I think you are similar to many of my friends who voted for Trump. You hate what has happened,and you're probably pretty embarrassed about how it ended.
You've got to understand that for those of us who were against Trump, we saw this coming and we're ridiculed for it. I was called a snowflake and ridiculous for feeling worried about a Trump presidency.
It's not fair to lump you in, but you did vite for this embarrassment and so you do own some of it. We warned you.
I agree with you, just voting for trump is not an endorsement for what happened yesterday. What happened was the work of a faction of the Republican Party. I think the problem you are going to have is that those people are now in control of your party. They are calling the shots. It is ironic that you have been warning of the democrats being overtaken by socialist factions within, and it is exactly what was happening on the right.
my brother in law four years ago defended voting for Trump by saying “what harm could he really do in four years?” His embrace of every fringe group out there who “likes” him and his unrelenting effort to cast doubt and mistrust for his own narcissism has certainly caused some significant problems. Would you agree?
seriously, how many times in the last four years have you been called “emotional” on this site when expressing concerns about Trump’s actions. For me it has been at least 50 times, often by many of the people arguing in this thread.
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I agree. I had a similar conversation with my brother-in-law this week. It was after the Dems took GA (he was pissed), but before Wednesday's madness in D.C. He doesn't like Trump, but always votes Republican because of his personal financial interests. We've had numerous in-depth conversations for the past 4 years over this very issue.
I told him that sometimes there needs to be more important things than how something affects your pocketbook. Words matter. Who you choose to represent you as your leader matters. It's why I voted for a Democratic presidential candidate for only the second time in my entire life (spoiler, the first time wasn't for Obama or Hillary).
As @yoshi121374 said, we saw this coming a mile away. Trump is toxic, and has been dragging this country down since he entered the political arena.
I can appreciate that many good human beings have not directly supported his behavior. I even understand people who voted for him in 2016 when he ran as an outsider. But after 4 years, there was no doubt about who he is, and who he was always going to be. If you cast a vote for him in November, you deserve a tiny piece of the blame. Own it.
I understand how you feel. It's why I was adamantly against Trump during the primary. My reason for that was in his book he said apologizing is a sign of weakness so never do it. I could not disagree about that more. The ability to admit you're wrong and be sorry for it is a core pillar of true strength. For the good things he can do, he's a fatally flawed individual and in such a spectacular way that it was only matter of time before it consumed him. Sadly, we have seen that happen since the election.
Here's where I think we're entering dangerous waters though. The people who supported Trump have been demonized, labeled and ostracized in so many ways by so many people with little to no regard for reality. It's all about politics and power. For a lot of these people, Trump was the one who would stand up to this establishment and he was their middle finger toward these people. The vitriol exchanged between both sides was unlike anything I have ever seen.
Behind it all, there is a message and if we don't start balancing out our culture, we're going to end up in a civil war. Just like we saw frustrations from the black community boil over this Summer, we have a the same thing with regard to many rural communities and people who just aren't represented by our government. This is a problem in a lot of places and it's something we have to at least try to understand and address in every way we can. When people feel they have no voice, no consideration, no representation, no recognition for the issues they face, it ultimately will lead to an explosive expression of these frustrations and we've seen that all too often of late. Hence the rise of BLM, Antifa, white supremacists, AOC, Sanders, Trump.
People just glossed over when an armed man attacked the GOP softball team a number of years ago. That was a significant story which needed a lot more attention so we could see the path we're headed down. Since then multiple elected officials on both sides have been assaulted but the vast majority of this has been directed toward GOP and conservatives because they have been constantly and wrongly branded as Nazis, racists and bigots in the media. It has to stop and we need to start seeing each other as people again who may have different views but we're still Americans.
Our government shouldn't be a participant in our culture in this country. It should be a guardian of liberty and justice but it is not meant to be used as a weapon to forward the agendas of either side. That's a long lost truth that could lead us to ruin if we're not careful. Those of us that understand economics know that even before Covid, we were spending money in an unsustainable way. There's just too much government overreach and to little understanding of the kind of society we're creating. It's one that won't function, won't be free and won't have the kind of opportunity people have come to expect in this country.
Truth needs to have its day. There will be inconvenient realities for both sides if that happens. But we're never going to pull out of this death spiral if we don't embrace the need to face facts no matter how inconvenient they are. No matter how much we posture or argue for our views, if we ignore the truth, we'll never stand on solid ground. We see that all over our politics. The last two presidential elections we ran candidates on both sides who wouldn't know the truth if it bumped into them. That's got to stop.
I agree with much of this. It's really sad that these were our best options. The fact that we ever elected Donald Trump is still incredible to me. The version of his personal history that people have swallowed is insane.
Moving forward, how do we get where we need to go? I don't see a lot of people of our current crops who I feel great about. We do an amazing job of tearing down people with new ideas or approaches. One the left, I'm intrigued by Andrew Yang, I honestly don't know the right very well.
I did love what was said on Wednesday night, and I can't remember which senator said it, but I think she was a republican. She said we need to "lower the temperature of our Politics and rhetoric". I'm going to try really hard to do that personally. You guys, with a couple exceptions, are not my enemies. We all want America to be the best it can be, we all love our families, and Clemson football. The issues that we disagree on are far less important than those that divide us.
Trump has certainly created some problems. The fringe - on both sides - has an unfortunately loud voice right now and that's concerning. I hope the more responsible Republicans can reign in the party while maintaining enough enthusiasm to actually win elections. That's going to be a narrow path to navigate.
Trump has been absolutely terrible for partisanship and polarization. I hope Biden - who positions himself as somewhat of a centrist - pulls the democratic party to the center and the republicans follow suit.
Here is where the divide really is. This is the heart of the matter, you are white washing the blame he put on the counter protestors that day.
Look mate, if you watched the video of that day there were people marching with nazi flags, confederate flags shouting antisemitism remarks. Richard Spencer was there, it was a who's who of the NEO NAZI and WHITE SUPREMACY movement gathering to protest the removal of statues that were erected during the Jim Crow era. These statues were erected to further illustrate white power. The argument that its heritage has no bearing, zero emotional fluff. Its about mainting white power structures.
Anyway, if your the pres and you watch people getting in fights and some people getting killed and one side is flying nazi flags and confederate(traitor) flags, maybe you shouldn't condemn both sides. Maybe you should condemn the white nationalists.
You are quoting his responses from the DAY AFTER when he was probably coached to not sound so crazy.
“What about the alt-left that came charging at, as you say, at the alt-right?” Trump said. “Do they have any semblance of guilt?”
“I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said.
“You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” Trump said. “The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.”
“You also had some very fine people on both sides,” he said.
Screw Trump, I know that day he was an absolute POS and a racist. He embolden white supremacists and neo nazi's that day. They were all over the internet rejoicing that he validated their fight by making their world view equal with his invented 'alt left'.
Agree we have to tone down the rhetoric, the partisanship, etc. As you have hopefully seen from some of my posts - at a policy level - I think there is some very reasonable middle ground on most issues. The far right from the republican party is more misaligned from a conspiracy theory standpoint than a policy standpoint IMO. Hopefully the ousting of Trump begins to calm that aspect and ideas and policy come more to the forefront.
I am concerned that the political polarization has breathed life into some pretty extreme policy approaches though. You have true believers on this forum supporting single payer health insurance and the eradication of the structure that has produced the greatest healthcare advances in the the world. Forgiveness of student debt - which is unfair, doesn't help those who need it most and has been studied to produce limited economic stimulus - is mainstream. Demonizing success and wealth accumulation seems commonplace.
Hopefully Trump fades into the darkness and the lunatic fringe on the right fades with him, and along with it, oxygen is taken from the flame of big government.
For us to get anywhere, people like you are going to have to put down the knives and quit with the raging about all this. This isn't going to help. You've misrepresented reality to fit your narrative. There are unsavory constituencies on both sides of the political spectrum. This obsession to create a false narrative is so destructive. Especially when confronted with the reality. There were no laws passed that took freedoms from anyone. No executive orders that took freedoms. All that happened fiscally was increased and absurd levels of spending along with tremendous economic growth for people at all income levels. The spending was bad but the growth was good. It helped everyone.
Donald Trump is not a very good guy. He was an ass before being president. He was a liar before being president. He was an egomaniac before being president. His attacks on President Obama were awful and unjust. I felt that made him unworthy to serve as the President of the United States. Nevertheless, he managed to get himself elected and his policies had a lot of good things in them and helped a lot of people. There were no new wars (first time since Carter), no more droning of Americans, no more droning of innocents, peace deals we thought we'd never see, the end of ISIS which exploded due to policies of the last administration. I'll never understand why people couldn't see all the policy successes we had.
This is such a great paragraph. We have given so much oxygen to extremist groups and it's just killing us. Our culture of victimhood is also a massive problem.
True believer @ClemTigsCo stated that Trump "praised Nazis." I pointed out that he, in fact, did not, which is accurate. I also pointed out that, "this is the type of false rhetoric that kills our ability to converse with civility," which is also true.
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