Are you saying that spending money poorly and “ whining about being a loser” are things you associate with black people?
BOA to offer black and Latino customers special mortgages
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Are you saying that spending money poorly and “ whining about being a loser” are things you associate with black people?
Well it is. Right here you imply that it’s a lack of ambition that’s holding back the laggards among the full population in the US. Because you cite ambition as the reason black Nigerians are successful. It seems the primary variable isn’t skin color.
Ah ok, so having a lack of money and ambition means the US tax payer should come out of pocket for them. Got it.
Are you saying that “ glorifying criminal and degenerative behavior” are things you associate with black people?
RE: your Appalachia, scotch Irish comment, those people are included in the statistics where white people are 8x wealthier than black people
Did you even read the article?
"Applicants do not have to be Black or Hispanic to qualify for the product, a bank representative said."
General populations are going to have more intelligent, more ambitious, and more successful members. They will also have less intelligent, less ambitious, and less successful people. I believe the people who have the means, ability, and ambition to immigrate to the other side of the world are going to be in the former category, and not going to be representative of an entire population. I think it’s a pretty simple case of selection bias. I don’t think it’s an accurate comparison to compare a segment of Nigeria’s population to the entirety of the US black population.
Didn’t take long for that conversation to go to finger pointing and accusations of racism
Personal responsibility, honesty and introspection would go a long way in solving a lot of these issues. Maybe try it out sometime instead of trying to get one over on the white man
And yes, I’m saying hip hop culture is a huge detriment to the black community
Right. But you are just reinforcing that it’s not skin color or racism that is holding them back. It’s the other factors you are listing. Ability, ambition. Your words not mine.
I never mentioned anything about taxes or taxpayers, but nice attempt at deflection.
Ok, are you saying that black americans are less able and less ambitions than white americans? I don’t think that’s the case, personally
How do you explain the racial wealth gap?
Of course not. You are saying they are less able and ambitious on average than Nigerian immigrants. Your posts have been quite clear and you seem to have identified those traits as the barometers of success rather than skin color.
Here are the answers to your questions in my opinion based on many facts.
First, we should examine the causes of wealth disparities. Black Americans are at a significant disadvantage relative to long term wealth which really impacts the statistic you are quoting. A large aspect of this stems from integration. Prior to integration, black business ownership was strong and substantial. There were massive issues with black access to housing however due to our nation being so racist. The challenge with integration is that it completely destroyed black wealth in America and our black population has never recovered. Instead of working to reinvigorate black ownership and wealth, we just said "Here, take this check from daddy government." The corrosive impact of this has been nothing short of devastating.
As a result, the gap between blacks and other demographic groups has been crazy. When we integrated, the country was still extremely racist. No whites were going to use black businesses but the reverse was not the case and as a result of lost business, black business ownership collapsed and billions in wealth was lost. It's never really recovered. This is a widely debated issue in the black community and a source of great resentment and I don't blame them one bit.
Was Integration the Worst Thing To Ever Happen to Black People? - The Black Detour
Over the past few years, there has been a huge debate as to whether or not integration has had a positive or negative impact on black people. On May 14, 1954, integration in schools began as a result of the Brown v. Board of Education decision. Although this did not completely end segregation...
theblackdetour.com
Was Integration a Good Thing for Black People? Probably Not
I humbly submit that we did not properly negotiate the terms of our integration. The pride that Dr. King’s father instilled in him has been lost
www.africanglobe.net
To avoid poverty, there are three critical factors. Graduate from high school, don't have a child out of wedlock and don't get married until after the age of 20. Only 8% of families that follow these three rules are poor. People to fail to do any one of these are part of a group of which 79% of its members are classified as poor. In the black community, 70% of children are born into single family households. That's a very hard obstacle to overcome. Likewise in the white, Asian and Hispanic communities, fatherlessness yields similar results.
Now we have seen a stable and good increase in the graduation rate in the black community. The younger population in the US have seen significant steps forward in terms of educational attainment.
FWIW, the average salary in Nigeria is equivalent to $13,500 per year in the United States. The average salary for black Americans is over $80,000
Average Salary In Nigeria 2022 {In US Dollars and Naira} - Nigerian Orator
The average salary in Nigeria per month and per annum in Naira and US Dollars with calculation.
nigerianorator.com
So the systemic stuff you talk about really doesn't hold up. People come her and excel because of culture and ambition. Perhaps Nigerians do so well because they aren't told they are victims their entire lives and that no matter what they do, they won't be allowed to succeed? I suspect that helps a bit. Culture is everything.
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All this is to say that the answer to your questions are complex. Whites have been owning businesses, controlling government and amassing wealth for a long time. Anything that interrupts this can cause significant disparities. A non-racial example of this would be North v. South after the Civil War. Southerners lost tremendous wealth and access to opportunity after the Civil War. That disparity is still there today and southern states are generally the poorest in the United States. Ironically enough, the gains that have been made in the black community allot for a significant portion of the wealth increase in the South.
We can't recover the wealth that was lost because of slavery. We can't recover all the wealth lost due to integration. In my view, the progress being made is significant and noteworthy. We have done away with a lot of the problems of the past and we are making progress. However, we can never make up for what has been lost due to the past. We can only forge a better future. I would argue culture is a big part of this and it isn't as though Asians have come to the United States without experiencing discrimination. Remember, we did have internment camps for Japanese Americans and the stains from WWII lasted for decades with respect to the Asian community. Prejudice, discrimination and disparate treatment among racial groups have marked all of history. Unfortunately, it's part of our humanity. It's something we'll always have to work to overcome. Government involvement in trying to balance the scales often produces horrible results. It certainly has in this area.
Now there you go playing the race card
Poor literacy and financial management and a few other items is what makes you poor
If you are black or any color or gender and practice poor frugality and financial practices you are going to be in poor
So think beyond wanting to use race as the joker in the deck
Go to school , get an education , work hard , have manners , practice saving and investing and good things will happen in the long run
So many people think entitlement comes to them for whatever fake reason they can concoct
I do want to make it clear that there are extenusting circumstances that can make it almost impossible to climb the economic ladder
The biggest is health
You have to be healthy to work so can be an economic death sentence
For that problem I am greatly sympathetic to a person dealing with that issue
Color of your skin is way down on the list
So many people use color or other excuses and give up instead of putting in the effort
So please give up on trying to head fake me with racism as I associate with too many now wealthy people who started out very poor
They are far better off than this white cracker and they have a much darker tan than me
And they don’t make excuses
They just work at winning
I asked why black families have 1/8 the wealth of white families
You responded by claiming it was because of bad spending habits. I’m not “playing the race card”, I’m just trying to understand your response.
I don’t think that trait is unique to any particular race, so I don’t see how it can affect one race so disproportionately. If it’s not unique to black people, how is it the cause of the racial wealth disparity?
theyll prob just sell tht sht to fnma...gonna blow out the risk budget holding those with the credit quality no matter how you tranch them. and good luck foreclosing on homes when race exclusively was the reason the mortgage was gifted in the first place. that should go swimmingly for a bank now matter how conciliatory they are to that point. just a bit of embedded headline risk there. dump em on the agencies
I think ability and ambition SHOULD BE the two barometers of success. I’ll say “character” is a third indicator in that category.
If the playing field were level, they WOULD BE the things that lead to success. Unfortunately, the playing field is far from level due to centuries of systemic racism. To me, that qualifies as oppression.
Black families are far less successful in this country than white. That is a fact.
I don’t think there is a difference in ability, ambition, or character between white and black people. I don’t think many people will disagree with this statement
Therefore, ability, ambition, or character don’t hold water as the reason for the disparity in family wealth. There are other societal factors at play.
Here are the answers to your questions in my opinion based on many facts.
First, we should examine the causes of wealth disparities. Black Americans are at a significant disadvantage relative to long term wealth which really impacts the statistic you are quoting. A large aspect of this stems from integration. Prior to integration, black business ownership was strong and substantial. There were massive issues with black access to housing however due to our nation being so racist. The challenge with integration is that it completely destroyed black wealth in America and our black population has never recovered. Instead of working to reinvigorate black ownership and wealth, we just said "Here, take this check from daddy government." The corrosive impact of this has been nothing short of devastating.
As a result, the gap between blacks and other demographic groups has been crazy. When we integrated, the country was still extremely racist. No whites were going to use black businesses but the reverse was not the case and as a result of lost business, black business ownership collapsed and billions in wealth was lost. It's never really recovered. This is a widely debated issue in the black community and a source of great resentment and I don't blame them one bit.
Was Integration the Worst Thing To Ever Happen to Black People? - The Black Detour
Over the past few years, there has been a huge debate as to whether or not integration has had a positive or negative impact on black people. On May 14, 1954, integration in schools began as a result of the Brown v. Board of Education decision. Although this did not completely end segregation...
Was Integration a Good Thing for Black People? Probably Not
I humbly submit that we did not properly negotiate the terms of our integration. The pride that Dr. King’s father instilled in him has been lost
To avoid poverty, there are three critical factors. Graduate from high school, don't have a child out of wedlock and don't get married until after the age of 20. Only 8% of families that follow these three rules are poor. People to fail to do any one of these are part of a group of which 79% of its members are classified as poor. In the black community, 70% of children are born into single family households. That's a very hard obstacle to overcome. Likewise in the white, Asian and Hispanic communities, fatherlessness yields similar results.
Now we have seen a stable and good increase in the graduation rate in the black community. The younger population in the US have seen significant steps forward in terms of educational attainment.
FWIW, the average salary in Nigeria is equivalent to $13,500 per year in the United States. The average salary for black Americans is over $80,000
Average Salary In Nigeria 2022 {In US Dollars and Naira} - Nigerian Orator
The average salary in Nigeria per month and per annum in Naira and US Dollars with calculation.
So the systemic stuff you talk about really doesn't hold up. People come her and excel because of culture and ambition. Perhaps Nigerians do so well because they aren't told they are victims their entire lives and that no matter what they do, they won't be allowed to succeed? I suspect that helps a bit. Culture is everything.
All this is to say that the answer to your questions are complex. Whites have been owning businesses, controlling government and amassing wealth for a long time. Anything that interrupts this can cause significant disparities. A non-racial example of this would be North v. South after the Civil War. Southerners lost tremendous wealth and access to opportunity after the Civil War. That disparity is still there today and southern states are generally the poorest in the United States. Ironically enough, the gains that have been made in the black community allot for a significant portion of the wealth increase in the South.
We can't recover the wealth that was lost because of slavery. We can't recover all the wealth lost due to integration. In my view, the progress being made is significant and noteworthy. We have done away with a lot of the problems of the past and we are making progress. However, we can never make up for what has been lost due to the past. We can only forge a better future. I would argue culture is a big part of this and it isn't as though Asians have come to the United States without experiencing discrimination. Remember, we did have internment camps for Japanese Americans and the stains from WWII lasted for decades with respect to the Asian community. Prejudice, discrimination and disparate treatment among racial groups have marked all of history. Unfortunately, it's part of our humanity. It's something we'll always have to work to overcome. Government involvement in trying to balance the scales often produces horrible results. It certainly has in this area.
Thank you for a well thought out response. I agree with much of what you said, especially that the answer is complicated.
What it boils down to, in my view, is that if two groups of people are of equal ability, ambition and character, then they would have similar outcomes on a level playing field.
The playing field in our country is FAR from level based on the socioeconomic outcomes of people of different races.
Should we level the playing field? I say we have an obligation to at least try.
the thing about it is 1 you cant rob peter to pay paul. ie taking away from one to give to the other. it creates entitlement, it will inevitable generate animosity, and ultimately taking direct action is telling the person youre operating in the interest of that theyre beneath you. as if to say youre so far above them youre gonna pat them on the head and make things even with the other kids. there is no financial or economic fix.
the fix is structural. the biggest issue many black kids face is single parent homes. they often grow up without role models and discipline whether its parents working multiple jobs who dont have enough time or ones who just dont care. these kids get told the world doesnt want them and is stacked against them in the media and probably schools. taking money from one person to give to others is not far, who is anyone to say im gonna even this playing field but to do so i need $ from you and your son just lost his spot in his school through no fault of his own. the entire message needs to change to really create progress. time is the currency not money. people need to get to todays kids and get to the ones who dont have any guidance. people have to care, set expectations for them, give them role models, give them a message they can create a real future etc. the only actual answer is finding a way to jumpstart successful qualities broadly in urban communities. you have to teach people to fish. redistributing money is just playing god to make ourselves feel like were doing something.
1) yes, I share that belief with you
2) culture. Specifically the family unit.
nobody can force a group to follow a path that has proven successful for much of the world. But if you don’t, then you don’t get to blame them for your own problems. Deal with the consequences or change paths.
Its not always whiteys fault. It’s time to move on. Two wrongs will never make a right and discrimination on any level is wrong.
shame on Bank of America !
I appreciate the guilt you apparently feel based on this diatribe. Nowhere did I say you personally did the oppressing. You’re assuming guilt for some reason. Odd.
So you want me to give an answer to something i have never taken the time to do a scientific study and anaysis.
I cannot answer that without research and proper project controls put into place..
You on the other hand are jumping to a conclusion based on the end data.
At this moment I have no idea however I am willing for you to share all of the scientific data you have so I may learn some of the reasons WHY
Just because that group is per your claim less wealthy does it mean it is true.
Anyone can skew or outright lie regarding data or statistics.
Before I can respond to your dog barking question I will need the source and contact of the information you are advocating as absolute truthj
then I have a starting point
so who and where did your data come from
No guilt at all
I hope that you now know history has a lot of hidden facts that people find inconvenient to rehash
Live forward not backwards
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I am very much in agreement to create a society in which opportunity is available to all
Opportunity only
We should not punish the successful when a person choses the path less successful
When you are failing at something most people will change course
My feeling on your take is that if one fails and they are black change the rules of the world to fix failures and not hold people responsible for their decisions
Regardless of skin color every person needs to be responsible and accountable for their actions
Source: The Federal Reserve, I posted this earlier in the thread
Wealth Gaps between White, Black and Hispanic Families in 2019
Across education, family structure and generations, gaps persist between the wealth of white families and that of Black and Hispanic families.
Thanks for sharing that study
I want to take some time and read it as educating myself on this report will help me in our discussion
So patience is my request before I respond
I want to take some time and read it as educating myself on this report will help me in our discussion
So patience is my request before I respond
This ^^^^
It's almost like memories don't go back to 2007 or something.
Poverty isn't racist and I'm sure there are plenty of whites or asians that would love to own a house but can't get through the 20% down and PMI hurdle. The reality is if you can't afford a mortgage payment, perhaps the better focus should be on skilled labor first, home ownership second.
This is nothing more than Bank of America's Mortgage Backed Securities Desk having huge demand from their buy-side clients and are trying to print/encourage loans to fill the void. Hiding a bad idea behind social justice doesn't mitigate the risk.
So it DOES say this, I’m very very confused now. Is this like an “I identify as Latino” therefore I should be eligible or are they meaning other minorities are included? I would think the latter
You should really contact Elizabeth Warren. She should be able to give you a great blueprint, or at the very least, point you in the right direction for a DNA test.
It's a violation of law. The Fair Housing Act makes it unlawful to impose different terms or conditions on a loan, such as different interest rates, points, or fees based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap (disability).
Fair Lending
Fair Lending Discrimination in mortgage lending is prohibited by the federal Fair Housing Act and HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity actively enforces those provisions of the law.
www.hud.gov
It's a violation of law. The Fair Housing Act makes it unlawful to impose different terms or conditions on a loan, such as different interest rates, points, or fees based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap (disability).
Fair Lending
Fair Lending Discrimination in mortgage lending is prohibited by the federal Fair Housing Act and HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity actively enforces those provisions of the law.
Do these laws apply if they only adversely affect white people?
I enjoy a thread where @scotchtiger is just waiting to complain about how he isn't getting some kind of break and how society has made it so unfair for upper class white people.
The program might not work but I appreciate the sentiment to it.
The program might not work but I appreciate the sentiment to it.
I’m not saying society has made it unfair for upper class white people. There is just irony when there are laws preventing discrimination based on race and then supporters of those laws (which we should all be) applaud policies or initiatives that discriminate based on race.
Not going to get into the root causes of why the median white family has more money than the median black family but I would like to point out 2 things:If “nobody is oppressed today in America”, why is it that the median black family has about 1/8th the wealth of the median white family?
Wealth Gaps between White, Black and Hispanic Families in 2019
Across education, family structure and generations, gaps persist between the wealth of white families and that of Black and Hispanic families.www.stlouisfed.org
1. Not every culture values financial success the same
2. Money isn’t everything and it’s a bad practice to compare finances. We should be placing more of an emphasis on all of our citizens achieving good health and happiness, not sizing up everybody’s bank account
The Fair Housing Act makes it unlawful to impose different terms or conditions on a loan, such as different interest rates, points, or fees based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap (disability)
A bunch of Clinton guys felt the same way in the 90's. That's why the housing market crashed in 2008.Can you not see this issue from any other angle outside of your insecure white male, err, Iberian vantage point? I believe in responsibility so though this program goes further than I'm comfortable with, there is a case to be made for why this is needed.
Redlining’s Legacy Of Inequality: Low Homeownership Rates, Less Equity For Black Households
Redlining remains a major factor in today’s wealth gap between black and white families across the country.www.forbes.com
If you can't put money down, you can't afford a house.
If the bank charges someone 0% interest, they are going to charge more to someone else to make their revenue target.
Money isn't everything in life but I'd argue it is for economics.
Why shouldn't we compare finances along with any other data about happiness, health, race. sex, religion, birth rates, etc?
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Seems like money is important in a capitalist society.
I remember hearing about mortgages in the mid 90s, when new anti-discrimination laws went into effect. Basically, if you rejected someone for a mortgage you had to list a specific reason that was subject to scrutiny and possibly legal action against the lender I think.
In theory, I suppose it was a decent idea. But the result was that banks and mortgage companies were scared to reject just about anyone - even for good cause. Obviously a credit score of 10 for a part-time worm farmer wanting a $1.5MM mortgage was going to be rejected. But there were cases that were accepted that probably should not have been.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bank-of-america-introduces-community-affordable-loan-solution-to-expand-homeownership-opportunities-in-blackafrican-american-and-hispanic-latino-communities-301614686.html
Press release clearly states that the loans are available to all first time homebuyers looking to purchase a home in certain neighborhoods. How is this discriminatory against whites and asians?
Press release clearly states that the loans are available to all first time homebuyers looking to purchase a home in certain neighborhoods. How is this discriminatory against whites and asians?
