Boarder Wall and Immigrants

[Shevlin77]

Grossing 450k per year he can upgrade that 350k house. Awesome story.

 

[gogetem]

The El Chapo Trial is going on and the testified that none of the drugs that come into the US go through unwalled sections of the border. They use tunnels, but the vast majority is just smuggled in through cars and trucks going through legal ports of entry. All of this is backed-up by DEA studies on the topic.

A lot cross the border illegally in unwalled sections, but illegal crossing through all borders (Canadian/Mexico) through walled and unwalled sections isn't even close to half of the the current illegal entries into the US as VISA overstays well outnumber them. Not to mention illegal immigration is down significantly over the last 10-15 years. A wall in and of itself in the desert will stop bears, but is nothing more than an impediment for humans.

The reason their isn't a wall already is that it isn't an effective barrier and/or an effective use of funds. People from every party have said this constantly for years for example:

"Republican Texas Rep. Michael McCaul, chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security, said in a January 2015 statement to right-leaning publication Daily Caller (founded by Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson and former Dick Cheney advisor Neil Patel) that "In our conversations with outside groups, experts and stakeholders, we learned that it would be an inefficient use of taxpayer money to complete the fence. … We are using that money to utilize other technology to create a secure border."

In 2015 Republicans in Congress had funds to do new fencing on the border and didn't even complete it according to McCaul because they didn't think it would be an effective use of resources.

You obviously haven’t seen Sicario.

Hahaha!

 

[CU Alumnus]

I agree that the current dispute over the wall is pretty petty on both sides. Personally, I think that a comprehensive approach that includes some new barriers, some new or enhanced technologies, and money for people including judges, housing facilities for refugees, etc. makes the most sense, but that's not going to happen. At this point, it would be really tough for either party to back down. Perhaps cooler heads will prevail, but it's not looking likely.

Refugee housing would be a good idea, but put it right on the border - effectively on the Mexico side (although technically it would need to be on US land). Like they do in the middle east. Process the "refugees" through and if they are legit, in ya get.

I do question why a refugee from South America has to come all the way to the US, passing through 2-3 other countries in the process.

We are a society of laws. Obviously we don't agree or abide by all the laws of our society. If we break the law we know there will be consequences if caught. Immigration is no different. There must be consequences for breaking the law.

The wall will not stop illegal immigration, but anything that will help make our borders more secure I am for personally. And you cannot make an argument to me that the wall have zero impact on people crossing our border with Mexico. There can be debate on how much of a difference, but until it is actually completed it is to difficult to quantify.

I read somewhere that most illegal immigrants overstay their visas. But there are so many that it gets tough to catch them. I think a combination of a wall in high-traffic areas and sensors in areas like the West Texas mountains might be the best combo.

Somewhere between Arizona and Mexico is a canal that has water moving so fast that it is an effective border. They have pulled a lot of bodies out of it. That sucks, but it is effective (although it isn't designed as a barrier).

 

[stigers91]

No I cannot, I could make an argument that it would make a negative impact on them, on us, and on wildlife in the region, while also costing billions of tax dollars while we have soaring deficits.

I haven't heard the wildlife argument. please explain.

 

[Champs_16]

You probably could have found a veteran with no college degree and put him on that same path...

 

[gogetem]

I haven't heard the wildlife argument. please explain.

Supposedly a wall would impair wildlife migration patterns. Maybe true maybe not, regardless it’s a BS argument to use against a wall.

 

[nytigerfan]

The wall is not a stupid idea, ask Israel about its effectiveness. The talking point is illogical, of course a wall would work.

But here is the problem. While opponents of the wall provide data, statistics and studies to prove the ineffectiveness of a wall, your best pro-wall argument is "well Israel has one". I saw Tucker Carlson make that same argument. I am not sure if you aware, but Israel can be a pretty shitty place to live sometimes. There were 54 terrorist attacks in 2017 alone.

When you add to that most republicans were against the idea of building a wall, it kind of kills the argument. The ones that are supporting it right now are doing so for - as you mentioned - political purposes.

 

[Howard's Jock]

Take every illegal immigrant away from the workforce and construction would halt, food would halt (especially fresh food) including fish, chicken and beef, vegetables fruit....
Fast food help would disappear in certain areas of the country..
Competitor of mine in Detroit works Russian and Bosnian guys all of which are illegal (came through Canada) but we never hear of any illegals except for Hispanics..

This. I would lose a lot of workers. They work hard.

 

[Harrison.Booth.]

So what are the laws people would like to see changed with regards to immigration reforms?

From my very limited understanding, we have something similar to a quota system for people who want to come in from various countries. A person who I just did a security clearance for said he moved from China (Tibet) to Canada because it cut down the wait time for citizenship drastically. Like @Tkinard43, its great to see immigrants come into this country who add to our society.

 

[6thDanTKD]

Virtually all of the studies that have been done show that the wall would not be effective, but that it would be costly.

A new Dartmouth-Stanford study examining the economic impact of a border wall expansion between the U.S. and Mexico between 2007 to 2010 finds that the expansion minimally reduced unauthorized Mexican migration and was largely harmful to U.S. workers.

Once we account for the complex ways the border wall expansion impacted the economy, we found that almost all workers were made worse off. Even those who did benefit did so by a very small amount. This is all the more striking given the substantial construction costs

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-economic-impact-border-wall-high.html

Studies made by organizations with certain agendas don’t interest me. I am talking about pure common sense. Spock would build a wall.

 

[Doppler Effect]

But here is the problem. While opponents of the wall provide data, statistics and studies to prove the ineffectiveness of a wall, your best pro-wall argument is "well Israel has one". I saw Tucker Carlson make that same argument. I am not sure if you aware, but Israel can be a pretty shitty place to live sometimes. There were 54 terrorist attacks in 2017 alone.

When you add to that most republicans were against the idea of building a wall, it kind of kills the argument. The ones that are supporting it right now are doing so for - as you mentioned - political purposes.

We should let ICE determine what they need to better do their jobs. In some places it might be a wall, in others it might be other technology. The problem is that people listen to politicians and media types when determining what is needed. I couldn't care less if a talking head states whether we need a wall or not.
It actually reminds me of the 90's when there was a push to put 100k new police officers in place across the country. It sounded great until some of the police departments said that they needed equipment and not more people. Let's give ICE the money and let them do their job.

 

[tgailes]

Here is a comprehensive list of all the victims (link below) of illegal immigrants! Look through this list and ask the families how they feel about open borders and people being in the US illegally and were these lives worth some ! This is a long verified list of victims that are people like you and me.

There are violent people here in the US legally which are always going to be part of any society, but we are spending money, time and resources chasing down undocumented, illegal immigrants that have no legal driver's license, no legal address, no legal social security numbers that have committed crimes....they can hide and be like ghosts. http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

There is another 15,000 person caravan starting up in Guatemala now.

Our elected politicians need to get together and come up with comprehensive reform......a wall/barrier in some locations, refine the process of becoming a US citizen ( it should be something that be valued and proud to have), refine work visas to improve documentation, verification of location, and termination, enforce e-verify and punish employers that hire illegals, deny access to schools, welfare, and healthcare to illegals.

 

[Cabotiger]

so putting your political views aside, in your honest opinion would you pend $20B on a wall or instead invest in tougher laws and enforcement of those laws?

Tougher laws because the immigrants aren't climbing the wall, they're digging under it or entering in areas with little to no fence/wall.
Funny thing about political view point, I met very few people in 2016 that wanted Hillary elected and actually asked their family members in the US to vote for Trump but they're also in the upper class of Mexican citizens.

 

[Cabotiger]

Birth control is a sin, didn't you know.

That's the point

 

[Rychek4]

Studies made by organizations with certain agendas don’t interest me. I am talking about pure common sense. Spock would build a wall.

The world is often counter intuitive and common sense is a phrase that should be used ironically.

 

[Rychek4]

I haven't heard the wildlife argument. please explain.

It cuts off wildlife from water sources, causes issues with flooding, interferes with migratory patterns, etc.

The wall is expected to cross through ecologically sensitive areas that include the Santa Ana Wildlife Refuge in Texas and Rancho Los Fresnos Wildlife Reserve in Sonora. This would pose a major threat to the migration routes of various large mammals including bison, bighorn sheep, pronghorns, and jaguars as they search for water, food and mates.

Porosity across borders is also invaluable to the genetic diversity of different species, such as black bears for example. Genetic research studies on black bears have found that populations in southern Arizona are more closely related to bears in Mexico than those in the northern part of the state. By creating barriers that restrict the bears’ movements, the already small population faces challenges that could result in inbreeding, which increases the risk of local extinction over time.

https://content.sierraclub.org/gras...eams/documents/border wall enviro handout.pdf

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...wall-could-impact-environment-wildlife-water/

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

I keep hearing about this Boarder Wall. Is this related to regulation of AirBnB? Or what's the problem with boarders?

 

[Rychek4]

I keep hearing about this Boarder Wall. Is this related to regulation of AirBnB? Or what's the problem with boarders?

Reminds me how no one can figure out the difference between lose and loose for some damn reason.

 

[Rychek4]

This still hasn't been moved to the round table, should we sent someone to check on @Cris_Ard ? Make sure he is alive and safe.

 

[Tiger1425]

"No matter how tall, how long, or how strong walls are, people have always had an uncanny knack for going over, under and around them." I will add this: If we are in an "crisis" or an "emergency" a wall will do nothing to alleviate that. If the wall is budgeted it will be years in the construction. It will not be up tomorrow or next week. We don't even know what kind of wall we are going to have. Surveys haven't been done. Right of Way has not been purchased. It will be years before wall construction will even begins. And it will be years in the building So, let's stop with the "crisis" stuff. If we are in a actual crisis then call up the military and guard the border...every inch.

 

[MBRO]

Within five years, a drone will be able to pick a human up and fly them over any physical barrier at minimal cost.

Will be a boon for border traffickers.

 

[tigerragman]

With all the talk about the wall and immigrants I thought I would tell you a little story.

Jan 2 2000 I go to work and at the farm Herschel has brought in some Mexicans ( all illegal of course ).

One is 16 years old, cant speak English, hair 2x longer than Trevor and his tennis shoes were not laced up. Told him to lace up those shoes cause he was fixing to go through the gates of Hell.

Now I never picked up a shovel, wasnt my job, but this morning after I had pulled a yard to grade I was messing around with a shovel knocking down a couple of humps. This kid (Gerardo) takes shovel out of my hand. Told him then and there i was going to make something of him.

18 years later hes an American citizen ( that cost roughly 50k, he paid every dime of it). I made him hire my accountant and my lawyer. Today he has 2 crews and is grossing 450k a year in lawn service and he is one of the best at what he does here in Augusta.

Owns a 350k house, married with a beautiful 2yo boy.

Walked across that border in Arizona. Took him 5 days traveling at nite. Came here with nothing but clothes on his back. Saw his parents for 1st time in 17 years last year.

There are definitely those stories. There are also plenty of examples of criminal illegals committing murder of US citizens and police. Let’s get more guys in here like your example but get them in legally after waiting in line and being vetted first like the law requires.

 

[1Clemson]

With all the talk about the wall and immigrants I thought I would tell you a little story.

Jan 2 2000 I go to work and at the farm Herschel has brought in some Mexicans ( all illegal of course ).

One is 16 years old, cant speak English, hair 2x longer than Trevor and his tennis shoes were not laced up. Told him to lace up those shoes cause he was fixing to go through the gates of Hell.

Now I never picked up a shovel, wasnt my job, but this morning after I had pulled a yard to grade I was messing around with a shovel knocking down a couple of humps. This kid (Gerardo) takes shovel out of my hand. Told him then and there i was going to make something of him.

18 years later hes an American citizen ( that cost roughly 50k, he paid every dime of it). I made him hire my accountant and my lawyer. Today he has 2 crews and is grossing 450k a year in lawn service and he is one of the best at what he does here in Augusta.

Owns a 350k house, married with a beautiful 2yo boy.

Walked across that border in Arizona. Took him 5 days traveling at nite. Came here with nothing but clothes on his back. Saw his parents for 1st time in 17 years last year.

I favor a 1 in - 1 out policy: I welcome immigrants that come to work like those similar to your post above, but would suggest for every one we accept, we immediately ship out 1 freeloader - don't care if they are a recent immigrant or their family has been here for 200 years. America has always been a land of opportunity for those looking for a better life that are willing to work- we have plenty of room for immigrants that come to work- no room for immigrants or even citizens who want to be freeloaders.

 

[clemcorey]

Great story.

The thing is though - It amazes me how few people understand that "secure the border" does NOT mean we don't let anyone in the damn country. It doesn't mean we hate Mexicans or Guatemalans or El Savaldorians. It means that we have something resembling control of who does enter the country. Like any sovereign nation should.

You can support legal immigration AND support border security. Whether a physical wall is better, or an array of sensors, or a minefield - there are people much more knowledgeable than I am on the subject that can answer that.

I'm happy for your friend as he seems like the type that should be allowed in. But he should have done it legally (I assume by your description that he did not). I also assume that he has since resolved all of that.



There are probably changes that could be made to the immigration system - including making it easier to get here legally. I've heard mention of guest worker programs. There is an answer.

This exactly. The problem is that ALL mexicans (living in mexico) think the walls is about them, To keep them out. The only purpose for the walls is to hopefully slow illegal immigration and cartel traffic. They know that legal channels are not possible and their own government is blame.

 

[clemcorey]

There are definitely those stories. There are also plenty of examples of criminal illegals committing murder of US citizens and police. Let’s get more guys in here like your example but get them in legally after waiting in line and being vetted first like the law requires.

The problem is that if they are not well established, at least middle class, they have ZERO chance of getting a visa from their own government.

 

[1Clemson]

We need a wall. Then enforce our own laws or freaking remove them from the books (Either way), just not enforcing laws that some political groups don’t like is stupid and eventually leads to anarchy.

Pass comprehensive immigration reform. We really need to know who’s coming in. Would you just let anyone come into your home, or would you like to know a little more about them? That’s “NOT” being mean, it’s being wise.

None of this will happen of course because politics are more important than the future of this nation. Some don’t want others to get a political win. They don’t want to fix the problem because it would make one certain person look good, and we just can’t have that.

Any money spent on a wall is purely for political purposes as it will not serve any practical purposes on making the country safer, harder for immigrants to get into, prevent terrorists from entering the country or stop the drug/narcotic flow. No physical barrier is of any value unless it is under constant armed supervision. A wall costing $5 billion to build defeated by a hacksaw costing $5, a pick/shovel costing $20 or a $50 ladder- sounds like a plan developed by someone that does not understand economics or military security and having no interest in abolishing/eliminating governmental waste. Until 2 years ago those 3 traits tended to be associated with the left side of the Congressional aisle not a Republican White House.

 

[Rychek4]

sounds like a plan developed by someone that does not understand economics or military security and having no interest in abolishing/eliminating governmental waste. Until 2 years ago those 3 traits tended to be associated with the left side of the Congressional aisle not a Republican White House.

Damn does that ring true.

 

[iceheart08]

I favor a 1 in - 1 out policy: I welcome immigrants that come to work like those similar to your post above, but would suggest for every one we accept, we immediately ship out 1 freeloader - don't care if they are a recent immigrant or their family has been here for 200 years. America has always been a land of opportunity for those looking for a better life that are willing to work- we have plenty of room for immigrants that come to work- no room for immigrants or even citizens who want to be freeloaders.

Anyone looking for the most un-American post in the thread? I found it!

 

[1Clemson]

Anyone looking for the most un-American post in the thread? I found it!

Equal opportunity offender- just anti-freeloader.

 

[6thDanTKD]

Any money spent on a wall is purely for political purposes as it will not serve any practical purposes on making the country safer, harder for immigrants to get into, prevent terrorists from entering the country or stop the drug/narcotic flow. No physical barrier is of any value unless it is under constant armed supervision. A wall costing $5 billion to build defeated by a hacksaw costing $5, a pick/shovel costing $20 or a $50 ladder- sounds like a plan developed by someone that does not understand economics or military security and having no interest in abolishing/eliminating governmental waste. Until 2 years ago those 3 traits tended to be associated with the left side of the Congressional aisle not a Republican White House.

Yea it’s the money that bothers you guys. Give me a break, you are personally concerned about the money? No your not, not at all. We are funding trillions for pet projects like building a tunnel underneath a major highway for turtles and stupid things like that then you say “I’m worried about the money”? I’ll bet if we opened a go fund me page and gathered the money from the people that want it, you would still be against the wall. Spending money has never been a problem. We need better arguments that that.

 

[Rychek4]

Yea it’s the money that bothers you guys. Give me a break, you are personally concerned about the money? No your not, not at all.

I am.

We are funding trillions for pet projects like building a tunnel underneath a major highway for turtles and stupid things like that

I would hope someone did a cost-benefit for the turtles.

then you say “I’m worried about the money”? I’ll bet if we opened a go fund me page and gathered the money from the people that want it, you would still be against the wall.

I would still have reservations about things like taking peoples private property away.

Spending money has never been a problem. We need better arguments that that.

It has, it is, you need better arguments.

 

[1Clemson]

Yea it’s the money that bothers you guys. Give me a break, you are personally concerned about the money? No your not, not at all. We are funding trillions for pet projects like building a tunnel underneath a major highway for turtles and stupid things like that then you say “I’m worried about the money”? I’ll bet if we opened a go fund me page and gathered the money from the people that want it, you would still be against the wall. Spending money has never been a problem. We need better arguments that that.

How about- it won't work. Check the US Army FM and JP reports on countermobility (per my recollection as an US Army Engineer charged with mobility and countermobility operations that is the function of a wall)- been pretty damn clear to all but simpletons that a fixed barrier costs more to build than breach and is ineffective unless supported by armed surveillance. There are better solutions, but those aren't supported by the Trump base because they don't understand and Trump isn't willing to teach or lead, only to feed red meat to a political base.

Plus, the US has a well earned and respected reputation opposing walls "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall". Hate to think that 30 years after the Cold War ended, it is the US taking the USSR's position of building walls.

Stupid policy regardless of cost, but add the cost and it gets even stupider. If a Democrat would have proposed anything this moronic you and I would be laughing our ass off. Add to this, the very parts of the government currently impacted:

1. Border Patrol, ICE and TSA agents unpaid -may need those guys if we really care about security
2. Coast Guard unpaid - military branch that focuses on drug and immigrant interdiction at sea -kind of what Trump wanted, isn't it?
3. E-verify offline - can't be sure we are hiring citizens without it.
4. FBI unpaid - forget the DC crap, the FBI is key to counter espionage and counter terrorism - maybe those would be good things?
5. Air Traffic Control unpaid - I feel safer with the controllers worried about their mortgage, don't you?
6. No Ag subsidies- not an issue for me, but kind of appropriate that a piece of the Trump base takes a big hit.
7. Just sent the IRS back without pay - imagine a Trump tax cut refund that never gets processed
8. Immigration courts postponing hearings for years - I guess the only way to stay in the US as an illegal is to get a postponed hearing date

I'm a Republican, but have not lost the ability to recognize stupidity. We need a comprehensive approach to our immigration and border protection, but $5B in concrete is a simpleton solution developed by a simpleton to appease simpletons.

 

[nytigerfan]

How about- it won't work. Check the US Army FM and JP reports on countermobility (per my recollection as an US Army Engineer charged with mobility and countermobility operations that is the function of a wall)- been pretty damn clear to all but simpletons that a fixed barrier costs more to build than breach and is ineffective unless supported by armed surveillance. There are better solutions, but those aren't supported by the Trump base because they don't understand and Trump isn't willing to teach or lead, only to feed red meat to a political base.

Plus, the US has a well earned and respected reputation opposing walls "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall". Hate to think that 30 years after the Cold War ended, it is the US taking the USSR's position of building walls.

Stupid policy regardless of cost, but add the cost and it gets even stupider. If a Democrat would have proposed anything this moronic you and I would be laughing our ass off. Add to this, the very parts of the government currently impacted:

1. Border Patrol, ICE and TSA agents unpaid -may need those guys if we really care about security
2. Coast Guard unpaid - military branch that focuses on drug and immigrant interdiction at sea -kind of what Trump wanted, isn't it?
3. E-verify offline - can't be sure we are hiring citizens without it.
4. FBI unpaid - forget the DC crap, the FBI is key to counter espionage and counter terrorism - maybe those would be good things?
5. Air Traffic Control unpaid - I feel safer with the controllers worried about their mortgage, don't you?
6. No Ag subsidies- not an issue for me, but kind of appropriate that a piece of the Trump base takes a big hit.
7. Just sent the IRS back without pay - imagine a Trump tax cut refund that never gets processed
8. Immigration courts postponing hearings for years - I guess the only way to stay in the US as an illegal is to get a postponed hearing date

I'm a Republican, but have not lost the ability to recognize stupidity. We need a comprehensive approach to our immigration and border protection, but $5B in concrete is a simpleton solution developed by a simpleton to appease simpletons.

Drop the mic

 

[FLaw47]

Studies made by organizations with certain agendas don’t interest me. I am talking about pure common sense. Spock would build a wall.

"Common Sense" is pretty close to the worst justification for legislating something. Your "gut feel" is not more valid than data. Your gut feel is counter productive in this situation and the fact that you and millions of other people are willing to ignore data for what feel right is probably what scares me the most about our country right now.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Great story and good for him. However, is this the same as our "what about this 2 star who is now an NFL All Pro"?

THIS is the best question in the thread, hands down. I suspect that the answer is somewhere in between. The following seems to answer it and sure enough, it's in between. WARNING: The following is a fact-base journal article. No politics, so you Trumpians and Libtards should probably just look away and hum to yourselves so your mind won't be polluted with the truth.
---------------------
Increased prevalence of immigrants is associated with lower crime rates—the opposite of what many Americans fear. Among men ages 18-39, the foreign-born are incarcerated at a rate that is one-fourth the rate for the native-born. Cities and neighborhoods with greater concentrations of immigrants have much lower rates of crime and violence than comparable nonimmigrant neighborhoods. This phenomenon is reflected not only across space but also over time. There is, however, evidence that crime rates for the second and third generation rise to more closely match the general population of native-born Americans.

Other immigrants start with exceptionally low levels of education. This is particularly true for foreign-born Mexicans and Central Americans, who on average have less than 10 years of education. These immigrants’ children progress a great deal relative to their parents, with an average education of more than 12 years, but they do not reach parity with the general population of native-born. This outcome mostly reflects the low levels of schooling, English proficiency, and other forms of human capital their parents bring to the United States.

"Summary." National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2015. The Integration of Immigrants into American Society. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. doi: 10.17226/21746.
---------------------

So it is a feel good story, but most kids of immigrants average more than a HS degree and do OK in society.

 

[hopefultiger13]

I disagree. A bipartisan budget was passed that did not include a wall. Trump wants the wall so he can keep a campaign promise (even though he said Mexico would pay for it). Most republicans agree that a wall is stupid and will be ineffective.

You can still be for immigration reform and tougher immigration and be opposed to the wall. The wall would be a colossal waste of time and money.

As an Independent, I don't oppose a wall on some sort of moral ground. I just don't think it will work. Something along the lines of 5 Billion Dollar Wall < $50 extension ladder or hell a $19.95 grinder if we go with steel.

BUT (and this is just my opinion) the wall and the shutdown are not about the wall and shutdown. Trump did this on purpose to distract from the Russia investigation... specifically the Manafold plea deal where his lawyers forgot to redact the part where he was passing on campaign polling info to the Russians while working for Trump.

And it worked... the Libtards in the press are pissing all over themselves over the shutdown... Mission accomplished for Trump.

 

[nytigerfan]

As an Independent, I don't oppose a wall on some sort of moral ground. I just don't think it will work. Something along the lines of 5 Billion Dollar Wall < $50 extension ladder or hell a $19.95 grinder if we go with steel.

BUT (and this is just my opinion) the wall and the shutdown are not about the wall and shutdown. Trump did this on purpose to distract from the Russia investigation... specifically the Manafold plea deal where his lawyers forgot to redact the part where he was passing on campaign polling info to the Russians while working for Trump.

And it worked... the Libtards in the press are pissing all over themselves over the shutdown... Mission accomplished for Trump.

I disagree, I think trump believes he HAS to build the wall. He is listening to people like Ann Coulter who are saying he is dead if he does not win this one. If he loses the support of any of his base, he has no shot at reelection.

Also, if distraction from russia collusion was the goal, then Guiliani destroyed that last night when he all but admitted that the trump campaign did collude with russia. That has been all over the news today.

 

[hopefultiger13]

I disagree, I think trump believes he HAS to build the wall. He is listening to people like Ann Coulter who are saying he is dead if he does not win this one. If he loses the support of any of his base, he has no shot at reelection.

Also, if distraction from russia collusion was the goal, then Guiliani destroyed that last night when he all but admitted that the trump campaign did collude with russia. That has been all over the news today.

While I don't disagree with with the 1st Paragraph, the timing is certainly curious isn't it? ANY TIME in the past 2 years would have been better for Trump. The wall funding would have passed the House at any time. The Senate would have been the hold up, but if Trump had forced the issue then, all he would have needed was a few Dems to fold over a shutdown and he was golden.

But Trump picked the very time when he has to know that the House isn't going to pass what he wants... thus chaos... which is what I believe he wants.

Guiliani is IMHO Trump's dancing clown. He goes on TV and says crazy things all the time. But the thing is that he just moved the goal posts for the Trumpians. Let's go back, back, back to when this Russian thing first started.

Trump told us that he hadn't talked to anyone in Russian in years and that he didn't have anyone to even call. No one in his campaign had any contact with the Russians.

Then it turns out that some of his closest folks where meeting with the Russians in Trump tower, but just to meet about Russian Adoptions.

Then it turns out that they actually met about getting dirt on Hillary, but they didn't get any, so it wasn't collusion.

Then it turns out that collusion isn't even a crime (so it didn't matter if they did or not).

NOW even if the campaign colluded, Trump didn't know about it And the Trumpians on here have believed EVERYTHING out of Trump and Guilani the entire time. So NOW it's all about Trump colluding and not his campaign.

 

[nytigerfan]

While I don't disagree with with the 1st Paragraph, the timing is certainly curious isn't it? ANY TIME in the past 2 years would have been better for Trump. The wall funding would have passed the House at any time. The Senate would have been the hold up, but if Trump had forced the issue then, all he would have needed was a few Dems to fold over a shutdown and he was golden.

But Trump picked the very time when he has to know that the House isn't going to pass what he wants... thus chaos... which is what I believe he wants.

Guiliani is IMHO Trump's dancing clown. He goes on TV and says crazy things all the time. But the thing is that he just moved the goal posts for the Trumpians. Let's go back, back, back to when this Russian thing first started.

Trump told us that he hadn't talked to anyone in Russian in years and that he didn't have anyone to even call. No one in his campaign had any contact with the Russians.

Then it turns out that some of his closest folks where meeting with the Russians in Trump tower, but just to meet about Russian Adoptions.

Then it turns out that they actually met about getting dirt on Hillary, but they didn't get any, so it wasn't collusion.

Then it turns out that collusion isn't even a crime (so it didn't matter if they did or not).

NOW even if the campaign colluded, Trump didn't know about it And the Trumpians on here have believed EVERYTHING out of Trump and Guilani the entire time. So NOW it's all about Trump colluding and not his campaign.

that is a valid point that I had not thought of, he did have several other opportunities to force wall funding in spending bills when repubs controlled the house and senate. Hell, maybe he is a russian agent. Both England and the US are currently in government chaos (we are shut down and they just had a no confidence vote). This is exactly what Putin wants.

 

[hopefultiger13]

that is a valid point that I had not thought of, he did have several other opportunities to force wall funding in spending bills when repubs controlled the house and senate. Hell, maybe he is a russian agent. Both England and the US are currently in government chaos (we are shut down and they just had a no confidence vote). This is exactly what Putin wants.

Well, you know how I feel about Trump, but IMHO he's no Russian agent. Trump works for Trump... always has.

But he absolutely can't tolerate any sort of negativity toward himself. He will say or do anything to make himself look good or make money. I could absolutely be off base here, but every time new Russia stuff comes out to make him look bad, he does something outrageous to distract from the issue at hand.

We are agreed on the Putin thing as well. Putin couldn't be more pleased if he'd been elected US President himself.