Follow the Science?

[CUTiger1977]

Look, there is some nuance to vaccine and mask effectiveness. The vaccines do help with condition severity and helped slow spread early on.

But the absolute lunacy with which many approached both requirements, led by the topic of this thread the CDC, was and is absurd. I still am dealing with conferences with vaccine mandates, even after we all clearly know they aren’t stopping modern COVID.

Everyone should have embraced what I have been saying since mid 2020. Stratify risk based on the individual. Older people and those with comorbidities have ALWAYS been the at-risk population for COVID. Focus there. Not on masking kids and mandating vaccines on healthy people under 50.

I distinctly recall high volume posters on this board saying that people choosing not to get vaccinated (healthy people under 50) were irresponsible and selfish. There was abundant anger in their tone. They were certain of their beliefs. Thankfully we know better now.

 

[OleFastball]

I don’t even really want to wade into this but there’s so much disinformation here it’s hard not to. I’m a physician at Duke so I have a little bit of knowledge on the topic. The CDC was not well-prepared for the pandemic and the response wasn’t what it needed to be. Part of that stems from the sitting president actively going to war with the CDC and making it political. No one made it political more than Trump. You can call me a lib or whatever I don’t really care. I’ve voted for every political party, independents, etc. Masks work. That’s a fact. It’s why we wear them all the time. During flu season. In operating rooms. Etc. are they 100%? No. If everyone wears a mask do they prevent spread? Yes. Vaccines work. Are they 100%? No. Do they prevent spread? Yes. The vaccine against alpha strain was remarkable at actually preventing infection. Unfortunately as the virus mutated it started to get better at evading vaccine protection. But the vaccine still worked to prevent severity and death. This is what all vaccines do always. People like to roll the dice with flu and not get the yearly vaccine. Cool, make your choice. But the flu is not a new virus that the population has never been exposed to. Had we done nothing at the beginning and just let everyone get natural immunity we would have seen exceptionally high number of deaths. Much more than we had. Obviously natural immunity is always going to be stronger than a vaccine. No scientist ever disputes that. But you can’t just let everyone get it and take their chances. Plus our healthcare system would have just flat out broken. People who say the science changed over time just don’t understand public health. First of all, yes, science does change. We learn new things and adapt. That’s the very basis of it. But we also changed recommendations over time because different strains presented different challenges. Once we had vaccines available the target changed from preventing illness to preventing death to preventing our systems from being overrun. I think this was the main failure of the CDC was not communicating more clearly what the goal was and how it was changing in each phase.
OK rant over. Everyone can go ahead and attack me now and tell me what an idiot I am. But I’m pretty sure I’m the only one here who has the background to actually speak on this with authority.

Can't use a paragraph but is a physician at Duke. For some reason I don't believe you.

And masks don't work against the spread of Covid-19. There is no statistical data to back up that statement and there is plenty of statistical data (science) to refute it. You now have zero credibility in my book. Especially since you can't use a paragraph.

And you state vaccines prevent the spread. Wow, I'll be picking another place than Duke to go see my doctor. You give them a bad name. You are ignoring mountains of statistical data (science) with your statements.

 

[wvatiger13]

Can't use a paragraph but is a physician at Duke. For some reason I don't believe you.

And masks don't work against the spread of Covid-19. There is no statistical data to back up that statement and there is plenty of statistical data (science) to refute it. You now have zero credibility in my book. Especially since you can't use a paragraph.

And you state vaccines prevent the spread. Wow, I'll be picking another place than Duke to go see my doctor. You give them a bad name. You are ignoring mountains of statistical data (science) with your statements.

Here I’ll use paragraphs:

I went to medical school.

I am a physician at Duke.

You don’t know how to interpret data.

I really don’t care if you don’t believe me or don’t want to be my patient now. This is actually quite a relief to me.

 

[wvatiger13]

Can't use a paragraph but is a physician at Duke. For some reason I don't believe you.

And masks don't work against the spread of Covid-19. There is no statistical data to back up that statement and there is plenty of statistical data (science) to refute it. You now have zero credibility in my book. Especially since you can't use a paragraph.

And you state vaccines prevent the spread. Wow, I'll be picking another place than Duke to go see my doctor. You give them a bad name. You are ignoring mountains of statistical data (science) with your statements.

Also here’s a study from my employer! I’m sure you’ll decide it was false because orange man said so. But it’s here nonetheless:

Universal Masking in Schools is Shown to Reduce Spread of COVID-19

DURHAM, N.C. -- School districts that required masking saw lower rates of COVID-19 transmission within schools last fall compared to those with optional masking policies, according to a study by the ABC Science Collaborative.

corporate.dukehealth.org

 

[WapPride]

roundtable should be a case study in dunning krueger

 

[OleFastball]

Here I’ll use paragraphs:

I went to medical school.

I am a physician at Duke.

You don’t know how to interpret data.

I really don’t care if you don’t believe me or don’t want to be my patient now. This is actually quite a relief to me.

I am a normal dude

I went to clemson

I know how to interpret data

Masks dont work against the spread of covid-19

I don't care what you say, I care what the data says.

If you can't read the data i don't want you to be my doctor.

 

[Clemson Goat]

I took the vaccine and one booster because I was in the high risk group. If I had a do over no way I would do it again due to health issues I have had since taking the shots. I did not take the 2nd booster per the advice of my doctor. I usually take a flu shot annually but may even skip it this year. Per my doctor the flu shot will be a covid/flu shot in one this year....

 

[wvatiger13]

I am a normal dude

I went to clemson

I know how to interpret data

Masks dont work against the spread of covid-19

I don't care what you say, I care what the data says.

If you can't read the data i don't want you to be my doctor.

You don’t know how to interpret data. Because every healthcare system interprets the data as saying masks work. They are not 100%, but they work.

That’s why every healthcare system in the U.S., including Duke, is still requiring people to mask. Do you think we are just doing it for fun? Do you think every physician is just making this up? That we all know less about the spread of disease than you? It’s astounding how much people think they know about this topic when, in reality, you know almost nothing.

 

[scotchtiger]

You don’t know how to interpret data. Because every healthcare system interprets the data as saying masks work. They are not 100%, but they work.

That’s why every healthcare system in the U.S., including Duke, is still requiring people to mask. Do you think we are just doing it for fun? Do you think every physician is just making this up? That we all know less about the spread of disease than you? It’s astounding how much people think they know about this topic when, in reality, you know almost nothing.

What are your thoughts on vaccine mandates for healthy people under 40 with no comorbidities? Does the data support that? Curious for a physician’s perspective.

 

[dpic73]

You don’t know how to interpret data. Because every healthcare system interprets the data as saying masks work. They are not 100%, but they work.

That’s why every healthcare system in the U.S., including Duke, is still requiring people to mask. Do you think we are just doing it for fun? Do you think every physician is just making this up? That we all know less about the spread of disease than you? It’s astounding how much people think they know about this topic when, in reality, you know almost nothing.

How can you say that? He watches FoxNews and listens to Dr. Trump so that trumps your medical background.

 

[wvatiger13]

What are your thoughts on vaccine mandates for healthy people under 40 with no comorbidities? Does the data support that? Curious for a physician’s perspective.

Depends on the situation. I think vaccine mandates for healthcare workers are appropriate. We should do everything possible to try to prevent spread of disease within a hospital system to sick patients. Otherwise, I don’t think mandates are the right idea.

Initially in the beginning of the pandemic it was very important that we try to get as many people vaccinated as possible to prevent spread of a new virus that we had no immunity as a population against. Now, I think it’s fine to approach it on an individual basis. Pretty much everyone who wanted or needed a vaccine has been able to get one now. So if you don’t, that’s your choice. Chances are, if you’re young and healthy, you’ll probably be fine. But I get a flu shot every year even though the chances of severe disease are low because I’ll take every precaution I can. And also my employer requires it haha.

 

[OleFastball]

You don’t know how to interpret data. Because every healthcare system interprets the data as saying masks work. They are not 100%, but they work.

That’s why every healthcare system in the U.S., including Duke, is still requiring people to mask. Do you think we are just doing it for fun? Do you think every physician is just making this up? That we all know less about the spread of disease than you? It’s astounding how much people think they know about this topic when, in reality, you know almost nothing.

Haha, every healthcare system interprets the data as masks work. Lol, no they dont.

 

[OleFastball]

Masks work against what? Not against the spread of Covid-19 as I clearly stated.

 

[OleFastball]

You don’t know how to interpret data. Because every healthcare system interprets the data as saying masks work. They are not 100%, but they work.

That’s why every healthcare system in the U.S., including Duke, is still requiring people to mask. Do you think we are just doing it for fun? Do you think every physician is just making this up? That we all know less about the spread of disease than you? It’s astounding how much people think they know about this topic when, in reality, you know almost nothing.

I don’t know shit about Covid other thank masks don’t come close to stopping the spread. That’s a scientific fact.
Vaccines don’t stop the spread either. Scientific fact.

tbis is why y’all have lost so much credibility, because you deny, deny, deny when the statistical evidence is overwhelming otherwise.

 

[WapPride]

I don’t know shit about Covid

you could've just stopped there.

you're arguing with someone who does this shit for a living

 

[wvatiger13]

I don’t know shit about Covid other thank masks don’t come close to stopping the spread. That’s a scientific fact.
Vaccines don’t stop the spread either. Scientific fact.

tbis is why y’all have lost so much credibility, because you deny, deny, deny when the statistical evidence is overwhelming otherwise.

The statistical evidence does NOT show that. At all. The vaccine initially was about 90% effective at preventing infection and spread. It’s now down to about 60%. Not as effective but still effective. Masks are roughly 70-80% effective depending on how well they’re worn. N95’s are obviously much better.

So if you have a population that is vaccinated and masking when necessary (large groups indoors, during times of high spread, etc) those measures will be helpful in preventing spread. That doesn’t mean it’s 100%. That doesn’t guarantee YOU, personally, won’t get COVID. But it’s effective as a population health measure.

And, yes, literally every healthcare system in the U.S. requires masks on their premises. So all of us who actually do this for a living are on the same page. By the way, I’m the only one that has actually stated facts or shown data in this argument. You’ve just said “the data doesn’t show that” over and over. This will be my last response to you because you have obviously already decided you know more about healthcare than, you know, healthcare experts. Enjoy your life!

 

[OleFastball]

The statistical evidence does NOT show that. At all. The vaccine initially was about 90% effective at preventing infection and spread. It’s now down to about 60%. Not as effective but still effective. Masks are roughly 70-80% effective depending on how well they’re worn. N95’s are obviously much better.

So if you have a population that is vaccinated and masking when necessary (large groups indoors, during times of high spread, etc) those measures will be helpful in preventing spread. That doesn’t mean it’s 100%. That doesn’t guarantee YOU, personally, won’t get COVID. But it’s effective as a population health measure.

And, yes, literally every healthcare system in the U.S. requires masks on their premises. So all of us who actually do this for a living are on the same page. By the way, I’m the only one that has actually stated facts or shown data in this argument. You’ve just said “the data doesn’t show that” over and over. This will be my last response to you because you have obviously already decided you know more about healthcare than, you know, healthcare experts. Enjoy your life!

Lol. Masks are 60% effective. Not even close!

 

[OleFastball]

The statistical evidence does NOT show that. At all. The vaccine initially was about 90% effective at preventing infection and spread. It’s now down to about 60%. Not as effective but still effective. Masks are roughly 70-80% effective depending on how well they’re worn. N95’s are obviously much better.

So if you have a population that is vaccinated and masking when necessary (large groups indoors, during times of high spread, etc) those measures will be helpful in preventing spread. That doesn’t mean it’s 100%. That doesn’t guarantee YOU, personally, won’t get COVID. But it’s effective as a population health measure.

And, yes, literally every healthcare system in the U.S. requires masks on their premises. So all of us who actually do this for a living are on the same page. By the way, I’m the only one that has actually stated facts or shown data in this argument. You’ve just said “the data doesn’t show that” over and over. This will be my last response to you because you have obviously already decided you know more about healthcare than, you know, healthcare experts. Enjoy your life!

I’ll enjoy life without a dumbass mask. The data shows, unequivocally, they do not prevent the spread of Covid-19.

 

[TigerGrowls]

Thank God the guy who played Conan the Barbarian is here to clear all this up. It’s really amazing to me that people think they can read a couple internet articles and understand immunology. I’ve taken classes about it, four years of medical school, three years or residency and practicing for years now and still wouldn’t act like I know as much as some of y’all. This is a clip from YEARS ago talking about the FLU. It’s completely different! COVID was a new virus that no one had ANY immunity to and whose R value was much higher than influenza and death rate was much higher. If you let that spread through the population and depend on natural immunity you are going to have insane numbers of dead people and break the healthcare system. Vaccines were absolutely essential in slowing this thing down and getting us to the point we are today. You don’t want to get it now? Fine. Everyone who needed it has now been vaccinated so we are in a different spot. Some of y’all need to quit acting like you know anything about population health.

What about Harvey Risch the epidemiologist from Yale who disputes Fauci Birx and the cdc? He's not the only one either.

 

[wvatiger13]

What about Harvey Risch the epidemiologist from Yale who disputes Fauci Birx and the cdc? He's not the only one either.

Sure, that’s why I said 99% not 100%. You’ll find a few people here and there that disagree but for every one you find, I could name ten more that agree. They’re the outlier.
And I’m not even trying to argue that I’m 100% certain I’m right. I never say that in my office. I’m not God, I can almost never give you a 100% answer in medicine. All we can do as physicians is follow the data. My point here is that 99% of physicians have followed the data to the same conclusions, and that’s a pretty significant thing.
I was a pretty apolitical guy until politics started throwing a wrench in my profession. I pretty much despise Trump for what he did to cause mass confusion and distrust of the healthcare system. Now, I agree that the CDC and Fauci at times did a REALLY poor job on messaging and that didn’t help. For instance, I was really disappointed initially when Fauci told the public not to go out and buy masks because they weren’t going to help. He was speaking hyperbolically. The idea at that time was that we were in a very real crunch of medical professionals potentially not having enough PPE and they didn’t want the public buying up what PPE there was available. But then he had to reverse course later and encourage mask wearing. Which sowed public distrust and Trump pounced on it for political points. What he should have said was “hey masks do work but they only work really well if everyone is wearing one. So you going out and getting a mask while no one else has one in isn’t going to help you all that much. So, please, right now, don’t get them. Medical professionals desperately need these and if the public at large is buying it all, the people who REALLY need it are going to suffer.” Then you don’t backtrack when guidance changes. But that’s a really tough job to try to communicate to the public so I give him some grace for mistakes he made.

 

[OleFastball]

Sure, that’s why I said 99% not 100%. You’ll find a few people here and there that disagree but for every one you find, I could name ten more that agree. They’re the outlier.
And I’m not even trying to argue that I’m 100% certain I’m right. I never say that in my office. I’m not God, I can almost never give you a 100% answer in medicine. All we can do as physicians is follow the data. My point here is that 99% of physicians have followed the data to the same conclusions, and that’s a pretty significant thing.
I was a pretty apolitical guy until politics started throwing a wrench in my profession. I pretty much despise Trump for what he did to cause mass confusion and distrust of the healthcare system. Now, I agree that the CDC and Fauci at times did a REALLY poor job on messaging and that didn’t help. For instance, I was really disappointed initially when Fauci told the public not to go out and buy masks because they weren’t going to help. He was speaking hyperbolically. The idea at that time was that we were in a very real crunch of medical professionals potentially not having enough PPE and they didn’t want the public buying up what PPE there was available. But then he had to reverse course later and encourage mask wearing. Which sowed public distrust and Trump pounced on it for political points. What he should have said was “hey masks do work but they only work really well if everyone is wearing one. So you going out and getting a mask while no one else has one in isn’t going to help you all that much. So, please, right now, don’t get them. Medical professionals desperately need these and if the public at large is buying it all, the people who REALLY need it are going to suffer.” Then you don’t backtrack when guidance changes. But that’s a really tough job to try to communicate to the public so I give him some grace for mistakes he made.

It’s not Trump that caused mistrust in the healthcare system, it was the healthcare system itself.
They refused to do actual science and look at the statistical data and took it upon themselves to interrupt everyones daily lives with shutdowns (ridiculous and harmful).

lol at blaming it on trump. Look at the frauds Fauci and Birx and the CDC. Their complete and total mismanagement and incompetence caused the mistrust, Not Trump.

Do they treat Trump Derangement Syndrome at Duke?
Get out of here with your “apolitical” nonsense.

 

[wvatiger13]

It’s not Trump that caused mistrust in the healthcare system, it was the healthcare system itself.
They refused to do actual science and look at the statistical data and took it upon themselves to interrupt everyones daily lives with shutdowns (ridiculous and harmful).

lol at blaming it on trump. Look at the frauds Fauci and Birx and the CDC. Their complete and total mismanagement and incompetence caused the mistrust, Not Trump.

Do they treat Trump Derangement Syndrome at Duke?
Get out of here with your “apolitical” nonsense.

We do. I can help you out of it if you’d like.

The fact is I know every doc I’ve ever worked with is in agreement with me here. And I know more that have voted Republican historically than Democrat. (And I have in the past as well.). Which is how I know, for sure, this has nothing to do with politics in the medical world. We are just trying to help people.

 

[OleFastball]

We do. I can help you out if it if you’d like.
The fact is I know every doc I’ve ever worked with is in agreement with me here. And I know more that have voted Republican historically than Democrat. (And I have in the past as well.). Which is how I know, for sure, this has nothing to do with politics in the medical world. We are just trying to help people.

I’ve already stated I won’t be going to Duke over your antics. But saunter on over there and get checked out when you get the chance. You are showing ALL the symptoms.

we can add TDS as something else you know nothing about.

 

[wvatiger13]

I’ve already stated I won’t be going to Duke over your antics. But saunter on over there and get checked out when you get the chance. You are showing ALL the symptoms.

we can add TDS as something else you know nothing about.

Oh no, I know all about Trump Derangement Syndrome. The first symptom is you think everyone else has it, when you, in fact, are the one suffering from it.

 

[dpic73]

Surely the apocalypse is upon us if we have a guy who watches NewsMax arguing with a doctor from Duke University Hospital - one of the most respected medical centers in the nation - about science.

That's true TDS(Trump Devotion Syndrome)

 

[moradatiger70]

What I find hilarious is that ITT, I started talking about mistakes from the CDC and glad they are making improvements (hopefully).
I did a quick count and the name of the former president (not counting quotes) is used 27 times! Crazy

I know the response by the left will be that he screwed up the response and we all know he made mistakes, but he also paved the way for the vaccine in record time, and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[wvatiger13]

What I find hilarious is that ITT, I started talking about mistakes from the CDC and glad they are making improvements (hopefully).
I did a quick count and the name of the former president (not counting quotes) is used 27 times! Crazy

I know the response by the left will be that he screwed up the response and we all know he made mistakes, but he also paved the way for the vaccine in record time, and I'll just leave it at that.

I will for sure give credit to the administration at that time for getting that done quickly. It was well done.

 

[scotchtiger]

Depends on the situation. I think vaccine mandates for healthcare workers are appropriate. We should do everything possible to try to prevent spread of disease within a hospital system to sick patients. Otherwise, I don’t think mandates are the right idea.

Initially in the beginning of the pandemic it was very important that we try to get as many people vaccinated as possible to prevent spread of a new virus that we had no immunity as a population against. Now, I think it’s fine to approach it on an individual basis. Pretty much everyone who wanted or needed a vaccine has been able to get one now. So if you don’t, that’s your choice. Chances are, if you’re young and healthy, you’ll probably be fine. But I get a flu shot every year even though the chances of severe disease are low because I’ll take every precaution I can. And also my employer requires it haha.

Are you still seeing severe illness from COVID? Everyone I know who has had it this year seems to have very mild cold symptoms. OG COVID definitely messed some people up, but it seems the evolution of the virus has produced a mild variant that may be less severe on average than common cold/flu.

I had it around Christmas and felt badly for about 36 hours. My son was 100% better after 24 hours. Part of my reluctance to get the vaccine is the fact that our bodies did such a wonderful job fighting the virus. Why would I want to alter an amazingly effective natural immune response? Especially when my family all falls in the extremely low risk category.

The medical community could have earned more trust by being transparent about risk stratification. Instead, everyone was subjected to the same fear mongering and mask/vaccine mandates. Including my young children, which was of course absurd.

 

[wvatiger13]

Are you still seeing severe illness from COVID? Everyone I know who has had it this year seems to have very mild cold symptoms. OG COVID definitely messed some people up, but it seems the evolution of the virus has produced a mild variant that may be less severe on average than common cold/flu.

I had it around Christmas and felt badly for about 36 hours. My son was 100% better after 24 hours. Part of my reluctance to get the vaccine is the fact that our bodies did such a wonderful job fighting the virus. Why would I want to alter an amazingly effective natural immune response? Especially when my family all falls in the extremely low risk category.

The medical community could have earned more trust by being transparent about risk stratification. Instead, everyone was subjected to the same fear mongering and mask/vaccine mandates. Including my young children, which was of course absurd.

So far Omicron and BA have produced less severity of illness for sure. The problem has been the changing variants and having to change guidance with every new variant. It’s hard to keep up with.

When kids became eligible for vaccines we were right in the middle of the Delta wave which was producing much more severity and especially severe symptoms in kids, which we hadn’t seen before. I took care of some previously healthy kids in the ICU which was scary stuff. It was absolutely appropriate to advise vaccination for kids at that time.

now I would agree you could potentially risk stratify. And that’s fine if you don’t want to get it. I would still advise it for everyone just like I recommend a yearly flu vaccine. And I think it’s appropriate to still recommend it. But if you don’t want to do it at this point I get it. Lots of folks don’t get flu vaccines.

EDIT: Yes we are still seeing severity. More in people with risk factors but still in some healthy folks. Which is similar to flu. I think we are reaching a point where COVID is becoming endemic and we can start to treat it like the flu. I’m not willing to say definitively we are there yet but it seems to be the case. But it would NOT have been appropriate to treat COVID similarly to flu in either the Alpha or Delta waves. The other difference is that flu is seasonal so we can take precautions for a time and then relax them. Unfortunately COVID really hasn’t gotten to that point. Hopefully it will but we can’t say definitively yet.

 

[moradatiger70]

I will for sure give credit to the administration at that time for getting that done quickly. It was well done.

I think my complaint or rub with the CDC was and is now that they said, "Follow the science and that the science is true data and exact data and we must follow that as it's the best we have (at that time). They made whoever did not follow their recommendation out as people dangerous to the public and anti-American! But now they are coming out and saying the "science" was not exact and that they had to make judgements.
You can't have it both ways with the American people. The CDC was back and forth for 18 months and people lost that trust. Now I think we see why.

 

[wvatiger13]

I think my complaint or rub with the CDC was and is now that they said, "Follow the science and that the science is true data and exact data and we must follow that as it's the best we have (at that time). They made whoever did not follow their recommendation out as people dangerous to the public and anti-American! But now they are coming out and saying the "science" was not exact and that they had to make judgements.
You can't have it both ways with the American people. The CDC was back and forth for 18 months and people lost that trust. Now I think we see why.

I get that. I have said that I agree the CDC made some mistakes in their messaging. I think that’s why you’re seeing them try to make some adjustments now and that’s a good thing. What I’ll argue with vehemently until I’m blue in the face is that anyone purposefully tried to lie about it or mislead the public in order to remove freedoms or whatever. That’s just false. I think they had an incredibly difficult job to try to get messaging out to the public during an ever-changing pandemic that we were trying to obtain data on AS WE were trying to establish guidelines.

And I know you didn’t want to make this about Trump but it didn’t help that we had a president that kept trying to undermine the messaging at every turn. He felt like he was in a good position for re-election based on the economy and when the pandemic started to destroy the economy he made it political. That’s just the truth from an unbiased medical perspective.

EDIT: I’m probably slightly biased…but not as much as some think. I used to be a left-leaning Righty and now I’m probably more in the moderate Lefty category. But I consider myself independent and am registered as such.

 

[wvatiger13]

BTW if anyone truly wants legit, up to date information on how COVID is spreading or mutating or why we vaccinate, how the vaccines are working, etc. this is an excellent source of information:

Your Local Epidemiologist | Katelyn Jetelina | Substack

Providing a direct line of "translated" public health science to you. Click to read Your Local Epidemiologist, a Substack publication with hundreds of thousands of subscribers.

yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com

 

[OleFastball]

I get that. I have said that I agree the CDC made some mistakes in their messaging. I think that’s why you’re seeing them try to make some adjustments now and that’s a good thing. What I’ll argue with vehemently until I’m blue in the face is that anyone purposefully tried to lie about it or mislead the public in order to remove freedoms or whatever. That’s just false. I think they had an incredibly difficult job to try to get messaging out to the public during an ever-changing pandemic that we were trying to obtain data on AS WE were trying to establish guidelines.

And I know you didn’t want to make this about Trump but it didn’t help that we had a president that kept trying to undermine the messaging at every turn. He felt like he was in a good position for re-election based on the economy and when the pandemic started to destroy the economy he made it political. That’s just the truth from an unbiased medical perspective.

EDIT: I’m probably slightly biased…but not as much as some think. I used to be a left-leaning Righty and now I’m probably more in the moderate Lefty category. But I consider myself independent and am registered as such.

The doctor from Duke that can’t use paragraphs and doesn’t know what the word apolitical means. 😂🙄😂🙄😂🙄

 

[wvatiger13]

The doctor from Duke that can’t use paragraphs and doesn’t know what the word apolitical means. 😂🙄😂🙄😂🙄

I started using paragraphs just for your benefit sweetums. It appears all the big words together hurt your brain.

 

[Willence]

Also here’s a study from my employer! I’m sure you’ll decide it was false because orange man said so. But it’s here nonetheless:

Universal Masking in Schools is Shown to Reduce Spread of COVID-19

DURHAM, N.C. -- School districts that required masking saw lower rates of COVID-19 transmission within schools last fall compared to those with optional masking policies, according to a study by the ABC Science Collaborative.

corporate.dukehealth.org

Your sarcasm and condescension do not do you justice. Especially given the realities of masking in schools and the long term data that demonstrates very little benefit especially when weighed against the costs. That's something in this spectacularly mind-numbing thread that just doesn't come up. But first, let's talk about masking...

Sure, proper use of masks is effective. There's little doubt about the fact if you use a proper mask and wear it properly and follow protocol as medical professionals do then you'll have good results. That's just obvious and the entire reason masks were developed to begin with. That being said, people weren't using proper masks. They weren't wearing them properly and they weren't following prescribed protocols for masking. So basically, it's a big load of bunk to say masks were working given the realities of spread rates, infection levels in the population and the very poor data collection by medical personnel across the board. Our public health officials could not have failed more spectacularly.

Now back to what I think is important to note. When weighing the benefits of masking (especially with children) and how we handled the pandemic in general, it's important to note there were more than just infection rates to consider. We destroyed businesses. We changed lives. We saw tremendous spikes in violent crime, domestic violence, child abuse, drug addiction, overdose deaths, etc. We saw Americans save like never before and then burn through that savings faster than any time in history. We saw a significant erosion in social discourse in our country. We severely damaged small businesses in this country. That's before we even get to the massive fallout in terms of education deficits from what we did with schools. There are A LOT of variables to weigh here.

To say that Trump politicized this and just ignoring everything else that went on is patently dishonest. I suspect you did that intentionally because you have a dog in this fight which is fine; but don't put on your doctor coat and then start doing that kind of stuff. These kinds of things have been so incredibly damaging to the integrity of some of our most vital professions. We've reached this point where anything that is said about Trump just must be true. Hell, he probably shot Kennedy too. He's a liar, a cheat, an egomaniac and because of that, we can just throw anything at him and expect that it will stick, right?

I have no trust in any institutions any longer. I don't just listen to my doctor anymore. It's been proven repeatedly that it is unwise to do such things. Why? Because it's been shown that corporate medicine and medical institutions will run right over anyone that gets in the way of their agenda. How do I know this? I work with medical professionals frequently and count quite a number of hospital docs among my closest friends. It's been a travesty what's taken place in that profession in the name of this ideologically driven mania. Also, the mentality in corporate and institutional medicine has been proven for decades with the cost of care and the ridiculous practices we've engaged in relative to the medical field. All that being said, we still have the best doctors in the world here and a lot of people on the front lines doing amazing work. However, we threw out so many of the norms relative to medicine and general best practices during this time it's hard to know where to start. Many, MANY experts on what we were dealing with went ignored and many were outright canceled or had their professional bonifides completely undermined by those with an agenda to press.

Thank you for all you do and for your service to the people in this country. I do truly appreciate that you are there to help people deal with their ailments and get well. I would just urge you to leave the politics out of it and stick to medicine. Even in the face of someone who is being belligerent to you on a message board. After all, what does it really matter?

CDC Study Finds Little Evidence That Masking Elementary School Students Is Effective

When the CDC took an in-depth look at the impact of masking on elementary school students, the results were not what you might expect.

www.westernjournal.com

Opinion | The Case Against Masks for Children

It’s abusive to force kids who struggle with them to sacrifice for the sake of unvaccinated adults.

www.wsj.com

And I could quite easily link dozens more from recognized experts in this field.

 

[wvatiger13]

Your sarcasm and condescension do not do you justice. Especially given the realities of masking in schools and the long term data that demonstrates very little benefit especially when weighed against the costs. That's something in this spectacularly mind-numbing thread that just doesn't come up. But first, let's talk about masking...

Sure, proper use of masks is effective. There's little doubt about the fact if you use a proper mask and wear it properly and follow protocol as medical professionals do then you'll have good results. That's just obvious and the entire reason masks were developed to begin with. That being said, people weren't using proper masks. They weren't wearing them properly and they weren't following prescribed protocols for masking. So basically, it's a big load of bunk to say masks were working given the realities of spread rates, infection levels in the population and the very poor data collection by medical personnel across the board. Our public health officials could not have failed more spectacularly.

Now back to what I think is important to note. When weighing the benefits of masking (especially with children) and how we handled the pandemic in general, it's important to note there were more than just infection rates to consider. We destroyed businesses. We changed lives. We saw tremendous spikes in violent crime, domestic violence, child abuse, drug addiction, overdose deaths, etc. We saw Americans save like never before and then burn through that savings faster than any time in history. We saw a significant erosion in social discourse in our country. We severely damaged small businesses in this country. That's before we even get to the massive fallout in terms of education deficits from what we did with schools. There are A LOT of variables to weigh here.

To say that Trump politicized this and just ignoring everything else that went on is patently dishonest. I suspect you did that intentionally because you have a dog in this fight which is fine; but don't put on your doctor coat and then start doing that kind of stuff. These kinds of things have been so incredibly damaging to the integrity of some of our most vital professions. We've reached this point where anything that is said about Trump just must be true. Hell, he probably shot Kennedy too. He's a liar, a cheat, an egomaniac and because of that, we can just throw anything at him and expect that it will stick, right?

I have no trust in any institutions any longer. I don't just listen to my doctor anymore. It's been proven repeatedly that it is unwise to do such things. Why? Because it's been shown that corporate medicine and medical institutions will run right over anyone that gets in the way of their agenda. That's been proven for decades with the cost of care and the ridiculous practices we've engaged in relative to the medical field. All that being said, we still have the best doctors in the world here and a lot of people on the front lines doing amazing work. However, we threw out so many of the norms relative to medicine and general best practices during this time it's hard to know where to start. Many, MANY experts on what we were dealing with went ignored and many were outright canceled or had their professional bonifides completely undermined by those with an agenda to press.

Thank you for all you do and for your service to the people in this country. I do truly appreciate that you are there to help people deal with their ailments and get well. I would just urge you to leave the politics out of it and stick to medicine. Even in the face of someone who is being belligerent to you on a message board. After all, what does it really matter?

CDC Study Finds Little Evidence That Masking Elementary School Students Is Effective

When the CDC took an in-depth look at the impact of masking on elementary school students, the results were not what you might expect.

www.westernjournal.com

Opinion | The Case Against Masks for Children

It’s abusive to force kids who struggle with them to sacrifice for the sake of unvaccinated adults.

www.wsj.com

And I could quite easily link dozens more from recognized experts in this field.

Well I agree with you there, it does little good to meet belligerence with condescension. I’ll apologize for that. @OleFastball I’m sorry for speaking with condescension. I’ll agree to disagree at this point and no longer respond if you choose to mock me.

In terms of what you wrote @Willence I would agree with some of what you said. It is true that, in general, the public has not masked appropriately so it does call into question exactly how effective it was. There are multiple studies that prove effectiveness though so you can’t just quote your sources and say that’s definitive. If we can agree there was SOME benefit, why throw the baby out with the bath water? It has a role. At one part of the pandemic it was definitely necessary. I think it is still necessary in certain situations and during periods of high transmission potentially. There are other things that can be done too. Vaccinations do help cut down on infections and transmissions. Appropriate ventilation systems help as well. We can do all these things, scale them up or down as necessary.

I don’t blame everything on Trump. I’ve said multiple times on here the CDC made mistakes in messaging. I’ve also applauded Trump’s administration for the speed of vaccine production.

I’m not sure I agree with you that every one of those problems stems from the pandemic alone or from the response to the pandemic. Though some surely do. Certainly all of these decisions must be weighed against what is good for society as a whole - the economy, education, socialization, development, etc. My only intention here was to refute, from a scientific standpoint, messages that were blatantly false or hinting that this is some giant conspiracy by the CDC. It’s not. I again apologize for any condescension on my part and will try to speak more kindly going forward.

 

[OleFastball]

Well I agree with you there, it does little good to meet belligerence with condescension. I’ll apologize for that. @OleFastball I’m sorry for speaking with condescension. I’ll agree to disagree at this point and no longer respond if you choose to mock me.

In terms of what you wrote @Willence I would agree with some of what you said. It is true that, in general, the public has not masked appropriately so it does call into question exactly how effective it was. There are multiple studies that prove effectiveness though so you can’t just quote your sources and say that’s definitive. If we can agree there was SOME benefit, why throw the baby out with the bath water? It has a role. At one part of the pandemic it was definitely necessary. I think it is still necessary in certain situations and during periods of high transmission potentially. There are other things that can be done too. Vaccinations do help cut down on infections and transmissions. Appropriate ventilation systems help as well. We can do all these things, scale them up or down as necessary.

I don’t blame everything on Trump. I’ve said multiple times on here the CDC made mistakes in messaging. I’ve also applauded Trump’s administration for the speed of vaccine production.

I’m not sure I agree with you that every one of those problems stems from the pandemic alone or from the response to the pandemic. Though some surely do. Certainly all of these decisions must be weighed against what is good for society as a whole - the economy, education, socialization, development, etc. My only intention here was to refute, from a scientific standpoint, messages that were blatantly false or hinting that this is some giant conspiracy by the CDC. It’s not. I again apologize for any condescension on my part and will try to speak more kindly going forward.

So we went from masks definitely work to the masks “ of the right kind” (N95) have “some benefit”

Regular cloth masks do not slow or stop the spread of Covid is all I have said from the get go. That is backed up by statistical science.

The messaging is important. It’s important to be concise and truthful, which the medical community has done a very poor job of. For a group of “highly educated” people I expect a lot better, and yes, when people tout themselves and toot their own horn as being “smart doctors” they should be held to a higher standard.

Get your shit together medical community. Lose the group think. Stop demonizing people (other doctors) who disagree with you.

how can we the people “trust the science” when what was told to the people wasn’t science at all?

I for one am ashamed of the CDC and others whom were complicit in the anti-scientific messaging g displayed during the Covid pandemic. They lost the trust of a generation of people and god forbid we have a real crises on our hands in the near future.

 

[wvatiger13]

So we went from masks definitely work to the masks “ of the right kind” (N95) have “some benefit”

Regular cloth masks do not slow or stop the spread of Covid is all I have said from the get go. That is backed up by statistical science.

The messaging is important. It’s important to be concise and truthful, which the medical community has done a very poor job of. For a group of “highly educated” people I expect a lot better, and yes, when people tout themselves and toot their own horn as being “smart doctors” they should be held to a higher standard.

Get your shit together medical community. Lose the group think. Stop demonizing people (other doctors) who disagree with you.

how can we the people “trust the science” when what was told to the people wasn’t science at all?

I for one am ashamed of the CDC and others whom were complicit in the anti-scientific messaging g displayed during the Covid pandemic. They lost the trust of a generation of people and god forbid we have a real crises on our hands in the near future.

That’s not what I said at all. But as I said above, I’m just going to agree to disagree with you at this point as you have continued to attack me personally. I apologize for responding in kind previously and will not do so moving forward. Have a good evening.

 

[fcctiger12]

I get that. I have said that I agree the CDC made some mistakes in their messaging. I think that’s why you’re seeing them try to make some adjustments now and that’s a good thing. What I’ll argue with vehemently until I’m blue in the face is that anyone purposefully tried to lie about it or mislead the public in order to remove freedoms or whatever. That’s just false. I think they had an incredibly difficult job to try to get messaging out to the public during an ever-changing pandemic that we were trying to obtain data on AS WE were trying to establish guidelines.

And I know you didn’t want to make this about Trump but it didn’t help that we had a president that kept trying to undermine the messaging at every turn. He felt like he was in a good position for re-election based on the economy and when the pandemic started to destroy the economy he made it political. That’s just the truth from an unbiased medical perspective.

EDIT: I’m probably slightly biased…but not as much as some think. I used to be a left-leaning Righty and now I’m probably more in the moderate Lefty category. But I consider myself independent and am registered as such.

The other thing that people have not considered his the massive amount of experienced scientists who left the CDC for the public sector between 2017-2021 because they were sick of dealing with political interference with their work. Tons of GS-14s, GS-15s and SES folks left, and the ones that remained grew distrustful of cooperating with the office of the director or with other branches in the agency because of several budget cuts as well as increasing interference coming in from Washington.

I was an IT contractor within the office of the director from Sept 2019-Sept 2020, and for the majority of my time working there, the vast majority of people in leadership positions for the CDC were serving in an “acting” manner because they had not been confirmed by the Senate. No one had actual job security, and no one had the backing or authority necessary to facilitate agency-wide cooperation on something as complex as a rapid rollout of test kits for a national health emergency. That would’ve been hard enough in normal circumstances, but when you combine that with a total lack of job security or support from the administration, it becomes a darned near impossible task. (And shame on Dr. Redfield for displaying an utter lack of backbone for the entirety of his time as Director.) I was not at all surprised when they dropped the ball with the initial test kits, nor was I surprised that they struggled to provide consistent messaging for much of the pandemic. They absolutely made mistakes, yes, but it should be acknowledged that they were not set up to succeed at that moment in time.

I’m glad to see that current CDC leadership is taking the lessons learned from that time and applying those lessons to improve the agency as a whole. I hope that Dr. Walensky has the necessary resolve to ensure that the agency follows through with these changes. And I sincerely hope that the folks in Washington stay the heck out of the way. Politics has no place in science.

 

[Willence]

The other thing that people have not considered his the massive amount of experienced scientists who left the CDC for the public sector between 2017-2021 because they were sick of dealing with political interference with their work. Tons of GS-14s, GS-15s and SES folks left, and the ones that remained grew distrustful of cooperating with the office of the director or with other branches in the agency because of several budget cuts as well as increasing interference coming in from Washington.

I was an IT contractor within the office of the director from Sept 2019-Sept 2020, and for the majority of my time working there, the vast majority of people in leadership positions for the CDC were serving in an “acting” manner because they had not been confirmed by the Senate. No one had actual job security, and no one had the backing or authority necessary to facilitate agency-wide cooperation on something as complex as a rapid rollout of test kits for a national health emergency. That would’ve been hard enough in normal circumstances, but when you combine that with a total lack of job security or support from the administration, it becomes a darned near impossible task. (And shame on Dr. Redfield for displaying an utter lack of backbone for the entirety of his time as Director.) I was not at all surprised when they dropped the ball with the initial test kits, nor was I surprised that they struggled to provide consistent messaging for much of the pandemic. They absolutely made mistakes, yes, but it should be acknowledged that they were not set up to succeed at that moment in time.

I’m glad to see that current CDC leadership is taking the lessons learned from that time and applying those lessons to improve the agency as a whole. I hope that Dr. Walensky has the necessary resolve to ensure that the agency follows through with these changes. And I sincerely hope that the folks in Washington stay the heck out of the way. Politics has no place in science.

You'll be happy to know that about a quarter to a third of the CDC leadership is still acting. I'd like to know what interference you're referring to? That would be interesting to hear all about!

EDIT: One thing the data shows from all of this is that all sides played politics with all aspects of this situation which is truly sad. We seem to do that with everything now. It's never ending. That's why I don't understand why you'd pick a side in this. All are at fault. There is no innocent or virtuous party here.

Hell in Los Angeles they are still making kids wear masks to play basketball and if they are over 12 they have to produce and ID card to show they are vaccinated. Even now... it's political everywhere and has been since the beginning.