Herbstreit View

[ChicagoTiger85]

If you believe the IBA suddenly found a problem with boxers then I have a bridge to sell you. The IBA is banned by the IOC because of the IBA’s connection to Russian organized crime. It’s completely financed by a Russian organization (Gazprom). It has Russian directors. The two boxers competed without issue for years until they each beat a Russian boxer in 2023. That’s when the issues popped up. No tests were done, no results were shared. The Russian directors came up with their reasons to disqualify them. Both boxers were born as biological women and raised their whole lives as girls/women. There is no evidence to suggest they aren’t

This is incorrect. It seems to be the case they’re both males with sexual development disorders. Unfortunately, gender ideology, because it disregards biology, has caught these people up into its agenda. For people with actual developmental disorders, gender ideology doesn’t work because it actually negates definitional biology and wants to say that “trans” isn’t a disorder.

I think people with biological/genetic disorders would garner much more sympathy than people insisting that men can become women by magic mental effort. But the ethical problem of those people participating in women’s sports still remains, since even people like Khelif who’ve been living as women have a natural advantage that we explicitly try to eliminate by separating men and women in sports.

 

[okclem]

This is incorrect. It seems to be the case they’re both males with sexual development disorders. Unfortunately, gender ideology, because it disregards biology, has caught these people up into its agenda. For people with actual developmental disorders, gender ideology doesn’t work because it actually negates definitional biology and wants to say that “trans” isn’t a disorder.

I think people with biological/genetic disorders would garner much more sympathy than people insisting that men can become women by magic mental effort. But the ethical problem of those people participating in women’s sports still remains, since even people like Khelif who’ve been living as women have a natural advantage that we explicitly try to eliminate by separating men and women in sports.

You're a bigot. This is a gigantic, steaming load of Joe Rogan style pseudo intellectual bigotry bullshit.

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

You're a bigot.

I’m going to take that as a joke.

 

[okclem]

I’m going to take that as a joke.

It's not, and I don't care how you take it. Stop trying to rationalize your bigotry with platitudes that seem smart. Be a real Christian.

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

It's not, and I don't care how you take it. Stop trying to rationalize your bigotry with platitudes that seem smart. Be a real Christian.

lol. The reason I though that was a joke is that it was so incredibly lacking in awareness of either what the word “bigot” means, or of the fact of your own bigotry on explicitly display. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised by this laziness from you. Frankly, I’ve been much more generous with you than you deserve.

 

[ryanhaley]

You're a bigot. This is a gigantic, steaming load of Joe Rogan style pseudo intellectual bigotry bullshit.

you could also just call it science and move on.

 

[okclem]

you could also just call it science and move on.

You're even weirder than he is.

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

You're even weirder than he is.

Oh yeah, you totally don’t constantly act like a drama obsessed weirdo on this board. You do seem like you’ve educated yourself a little bit better lately, and you’ve come closer to acting like a decent person, even. Maybe, eventually, with a lot of work, you’ll actually become an educated, decent person. But you should at least try to fake it until you make it.

 

[ryanhaley]

You're even weirder than he is.

genius comeback. trust the science, it's ok.

 

[okclem]

genius comeback. trust the science, it's ok.

How are you posting on this website right now?

 

[ryanhaley]

How are you posting on this website right now?

how are you actually? they have good wifi at the pro hamas rally - or is it drag queen story hour at the local elementary school?

 

[okclem]

how are you actually? they have good wifi at the pro hamas rally - or is it drag queen story hour at the local elementary school?

Okay I'll dumb it down for you. Without science this website wouldn't exist and neither would the cell phone you're using to access it and spread your particular brand of idiocy.

 

[ryanhaley]

Okay I'll dumb it down for you. Without science this website wouldn't exist and neither would the cell phone you're using to access it and spread your particular brand of idiocy.

the science that says XY = a man and only XX can give birth OR the political science that can't define a woman and says men can get pregnant? are you honest or a liar?

 

[TheValley91]

This is incorrect. It seems to be the case they’re both males with sexual development disorders. Unfortunately, gender ideology, because it disregards biology, has caught these people up into its agenda. For people with actual developmental disorders, gender ideology doesn’t work because it actually negates definitional biology and wants to say that “trans” isn’t a disorder.

I think people with biological/genetic disorders would garner much more sympathy than people insisting that men can become women by magic mental effort. But the ethical problem of those people participating in women’s sports still remains, since even people like Khelif who’ve been living as women have a natural advantage that we explicitly try to eliminate by separating men and women in sports.

They aren’t men.

 

[purple2]

They aren’t men.

i think the question is: are they biologically women?

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

They aren’t men.

They’re also not women. They’re biological males who’ve got a sexual development disorder where they were born with outer female sexual parts, but all the plumbing and chromosomes of a male that caused them to develop more male reproductive characteristics at puberty. This is a different problem than “trans,” but still raises questions about fairness and safety for women.

For people like Khelif, there probably needs to be earlier testing so that they aren’t subjected to this kind of scrutiny later in life after competing as a girl or woman for a while.

This reminds me of John Money’s experiments with intersex kids. He thought sex identity was malleable early in life, so when kids had ambiguous sexual characteristics (probably like Khelif), he’d go with whatever seemed like the preponderance and then have the kid raised as that sex. Didn’t always go well.

 

[TheValley91]

They’re also not women. They’re biological males who’ve got a sexual development disorder where they were born with outer female sexual parts, but all the plumbing and chromosomes of a male that caused them to develop more male reproductive characteristics at puberty. This is a different problem than “trans,” but still raises questions about fairness and safety for women.

For people like Khelif, there probably needs to be earlier testing so that they aren’t subjected to this kind of scrutiny later in life after competing as a girl or woman for a while.

This reminds me of John Money’s experiments with intersex kids. He thought sex identity was malleable early in life, so when kids had ambiguous sexual characteristics (probably like Khalid), he’d go with whatever seemed like the preponderance and then have the kid raised as that sex. Didn’t always go well.

There are those in the scientific community that would disagree with you about them being males. Some believe that it is not 100% always a male if a Y chromosome is present. Same goes for a female without a Y chromosome.

Ultimately, this was something that people used to push a toxic narrative and didn't actually care about those involved.

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

There are those in the scientific community that would disagree with you about them being males. Some believe that it is not 100% always a male if a Y chromosome is present. Same goes for a female without a Y chromosome.

Ultimately, this was something that people used to push a toxic narrative and didn't actually care about those involved.

I don’t think that’s really a scientific point of view so much as an ideological one, and a point that the IOC seems to have embraced. That there was some misinformation involved doesn’t make this something you can totally dismiss, especially since there are plenty of people actually involved (including boxing regulatory groups and the women boxing) who didn’t like how this went down.

Back in college, before “trans” and gender ideology was dominant, I took a philosophy of gender and sexuality class taught by a feminist professor and read a couple of books about intersex conditions and how people thought about determining sex in those cases. The upshot was that sex is really more of a social convention than a biological one, since some people’s bodies aren’t entirely clear. But I don’t know that exceptions should make the rule, and people who point out the conventionality of some concepts rarely consider that it might be better to stick with the conventional status quo.

 

[TheValley91]

I don’t think that’s really a scientific point of view so much as an ideological one, and a point that the IOC seems to have embraced. That there was some misinformation involved doesn’t make this something you can totally dismiss, especially since there are plenty of people actually involved (including boxing regulatory groups and the women boxing) who didn’t like how this went down.

Back in college, before “trans” and gender ideology was dominant, I took a philosophy of gender and sexuality class taught by a feminist professor and read a couple of books about intersex conditions and how people thought about determining sex in those cases. The upshot was that sex is really more of a social convention than a biological one, since some people’s bodies aren’t entirely clear. But I don’t know that exceptions should make the rule, and people who point out the conventionality of some concepts rarely consider that it might be better to stick with the conventional status quo.

Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting: What does science tell us about boxing’s gender row in Olympics?

Research is shedding light on different chromosomal make-ups and what advantages they may bring to sport.

www.bbc.com

This doesn't come across as ideological to me. Also, you can consider the conventional status quo but that doesn't make it the the right path to move forward on.

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting: What does science tell us about boxing’s gender row in Olympics?

Research is shedding light on different chromosomal make-ups and what advantages they may bring to sport.

www.bbc.com

This doesn't come across as ideological to me. Also, you can consider the conventional status quo but that doesn't make it the the right path to move forward on.

This actually does sound ideological to me. They’re avoiding calling “DSDs” abnormal or disordered. Of course, this doesn’t really tell us whether we should think of these people as men or women, whether this should have any effect on what we see as the “rule,” or whether these people should be boxing against women.

I actually listened to a podcast with Emma Hilton, one of the experts quoted here, before I posted in this thread. See what you think: