ITT: We discuss the negatives of your party

[Tiger Guru]

It's become increasingly odd to me to see people defend their party, even when they do wrong. As someone who absolutely loves good old fashion discussion, I think it's making people blinded to their downfalls. How does one learn from their mistakes if they always make excuses or defend them?

In this thread, let's talk about what you think your party is wrong for, shouldn't do or something about them that makes you cringe, and you wish they would change.

Don't defend them in here. Instead, discuss what they do wrong.

Hopefully, our tribalism isn't too strong, and this isn't impossible. But I think there's lots of people who could learn from a thread like this, and I am addicted to learning.

We all know what right and wrong is. Lying, cheating and stealing is wrong and corrupt, we would all agree.

What say you?

 

[dpic73]

I doubt you'll get many hits here but I'll start. I'm not aligned with the far-left of my party especially when it comes to crime. I'm more of a hard-ass than the average Democrat and believe that we should do everything in our power to ensure safety for all citizens. I particularly take issue with the leadership in San Francisco and Chicago because they have failed their communities in my opinion. The DA in Los Angeles is another one that should have been fired a long time ago. Oh and 'defund the police' is the dumbest slogan ever.

 

[Tiger Guru]

I doubt you'll get many hits here but I'll start. I'm not aligned with the far-left of my party especially when it comes to crime. I'm more of a hard-ass than the average Democrat and believe that we should do everything in our power to ensure safety for all citizens. I particularly take issue with the leadership in San Francisco and Chicago because they have failed their communities in my opinion. The DA in Los Angeles is another one that should have been fired a long time ago. Oh and 'defund the police' is the dumbest slogan ever.

Yeah, it’s wild how discussions have nearly become extinct.

It’s just opinions being shouted, which are fine, but nobody is listening. Not even the one shouting. I find it strange that with such a massively impactful thing in our ever day lives, far more than anything else, it’s the one we discuss the least. We’re not willing to think about things and problem solve by talking. It’s insanely genius that we’ve been groomed to not talk about the people handling our money or directly impacting our lives.

I think it’s safe our country was founded on the idea that people could have differing opinions, but still want America to be the best version of itself. I don’t think any of them dreamed of illegally working with other countries, meddling in their elections or creating wars funded by the citizens so they could get richer. I also don’t think they ever intended us to be so tribal and not converse on how to keep it great.

I’m a fan of learning, as you know. I like talking about things. I love hearing about things. These things matter greatly to how my life is going, unfortunately. I don’t think the government was intended to be this powerful either, but here we are.

I appreciate you responding. Someone has to start. We grow by learning and far too many people have just quit learning.

I’ll share mine:
I lean to the right for sure. I haven’t been to church in 20 years, except for Easter which is more of an event or gathering at church, however I do believe in God and I do my best to talk to him daily and have a relationship with him.

I don’t like the extreme right and honestly, much like a lot of the extreme left, I think they’re paid actors. Most I should say. I’m 39 years old and I want America to be the best but if I say Great, I’m a racist. I know you want America to be great as well, I know you’re not racist.

But I only know one actual racist person. He was a friend of mines Grandfather. He was a Mason, he was the most racist person I’ve ever met, but he was a democrat.

Lastly, I can’t stand the corruption through inside trading and funding wars and the Republicans have done a lot of that. Lots of corruption via the Prison system and narcotics. Republicans. Not all, of course but a lot.

I just wish we could end corruption. Not mistakes or bad decisions. Those are different. We’re human and we’re going to do things differently. Leadership at that level is insanely hard. But having people working against you is even harder. I wish that we would stop that.

I just want the people we elect fairly to be out there and held accountable. I don’t care about their wallet or their friends. The power they have over us is as immense as it’s ever been. BTW, none of our media is doing its job. It’s doing the governments job. Feels like checkmate when you own all of the information.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[harristeeter]

Yeah, it’s wild how discussions have nearly become extinct.

It’s just opinions being shouted, which are fine, but nobody is listening. Not even the one shouting. I find it strange that with such a massively impactful thing in our ever day lives, far more than anything else, it’s the one we discuss the least. We’re not willing to think about things and problem solve by talking. It’s insanely genius that we’ve been groomed to not talk about the people handling our money or directly impacting our lives.

I think it’s safe our country was founded on the idea that people could have differing opinions, but still want America to be the best version of itself. I don’t think any of them dreamed of illegally working with other countries, meddling in their elections or creating wars funded by the citizens so they could get richer. I also don’t think they ever intended us to be so tribal and not converse on how to keep it great.

I’m a fan of learning, as you know. I like talking about things. I love hearing about things. These things matter greatly to how my life is going, unfortunately. I don’t think the government was intended to be this powerful either, but here we are.

I appreciate you responding. Someone has to start. We grow by learning and far too many people have just quit learning.

I’ll share mine:
I lean to the right for sure. I haven’t been to church in 20 years, except for Easter which is more of an event or gathering at church, however I do believe in God and I do my best to talk to him daily and have a relationship with him.

I don’t like the extreme right and honestly, much like a lot of the extreme left, I think they’re paid actors. Most I should say. I’m 39 years old and I want America to be the best but if I say Great, I’m a racist. I know you want America to be great as well, I know you’re not racist.

But I only know one actual racist person. He was a friend of mines Grandfather. He was a Mason, he was the most racist person I’ve ever met, but he was a democrat.

Lastly, I can’t stand the corruption through inside trading and funding wars and the Republicans have done a lot of that. Lots of corruption via the Prison system and narcotics. Republicans. Not all, of course but a lot.

I just wish we could end corruption. Not mistakes or bad decisions. Those are different. We’re human and we’re going to do things differently. Leadership at that level is insanely hard. But having people working against you is even harder. I wish that we would stop that.

I just want the people we elect fairly to be out there and held accountable. I don’t care about their wallet or their friends. The power they have over us is as immense as it’s ever been. BTW, none of our media is doing its job. It’s doing the governments job. Feels like checkmate when you own all of the information.

Thanks for the reply!

Your last paragraph should be applauded by people on both sides of the aisle. IMO, this is the biggest travesty to the citizens of the United States for the last 25 years or so. The media's job is not to be an arm extension of one political party or the other. Their job is to help hold the government accountable for the decision's it makes.

If people are being honest, they will concede that the MSM is failing us just as bad as the actual politicians. If they can't admit that, then you know which side of the aisle they vote for without having to look at their registration card.

 

[Dadar]

Honesty, integrity, respect and country above party and personal benefit. Guess I am an idealist without a party who has to eliminate what I see as pure evil and greed.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

It's become increasingly odd to me to see people defend their party, even when they do wrong. As someone who absolutely loves good old fashion discussion, I think it's making people blinded to their downfalls. How does one learn from their mistakes if they always make excuses or defend them?

In this thread, let's talk about what you think your party is wrong for, shouldn't do or something about them that makes you cringe, and you wish they would change.

Don't defend them in here. Instead, discuss what they do wrong.

Hopefully, our tribalism isn't too strong, and this isn't impossible. But I think there's lots of people who could learn from a thread like this, and I am addicted to learning.

We all know what right and wrong is. Lying, cheating and stealing is wrong and corrupt, we would all agree.

What say you?

Color me shocked you aren't getting a lot of responses on this. But I too really appreciate real discussion and respectfully discussing topics. When calm, and making sure you call out your own sides fault in whatever issue can go a long way. It's not always easy because we are often passionate about the subject.

For me, it is somewhat hard in that I was a Republican almost my entire life. It wasn't until Trump and other life events of my own that I started to feel truly center left. So I find myself not truly feeling like either is "my party". I find myself feeling more and more solidly left as Republicans seem to lean more into social politics (battling wokeness, anti-LGBTQ+, DEI, trans issues, etc) rather the fiscal issues (I hear plenty of catch phrases about Bidenomics/inflation, etc but rarely see policies pushed, but rather grievance politics instead).

But as I do likely identify more as a democrat now that the Republican party is really the MAGA party, like Dpic mentioned, I also struggle with crime. But really, that leads me to messaging. A lot of the policies or at least ideas I agree with. But their messaging is horrible and sends the absolute wrong message. Like "Defund the police". Whoever started that and then repeated it should be defunded. The idea behind taking some of the funds used for military equipment to do things like paying for more healthcare professionals, or better training, or even just better pay to attract better candidates and being able to replace bad cops without worried about being understaffed. I also struggle that so many on the left fall for the trap set by Republicans. So often I see Republicans use dog whistles or language that basically amounts to trolling. Its not necessarily overtly racist or offensive or whatever, but is just close enough and the idiots on the left just can't help but take the bait, complain about it, make a big deal about it, call it racist, etc. Even if I agree that the Republican involved knew what they were doing, you can't stoop to the bait, make the story about the comment, and lose the point of the policy or issue being discussed. I also often disagree with the far left of the party of course. Also, I wish they would've found a way to get Biden to drop out prior to the primaries. While I don't necessarily believe that it was intentional and a plan (I really don't think the big donors, etc would've chosen Kamala, even if in some ways she represents a human version of the trolling comment I mentioned earlier on the other side), I think they had to know it was a possibility, and it was clear he wasn't himself and was severely aged. If they had forced the issue then, even if more privately, we could've had a true primary and hopefully a better candidate than Kamala.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Your last paragraph should be applauded by people on both sides of the aisle. IMO, this is the biggest travesty to the citizens of the United States for the last 25 years or so. The media's job is not to be an arm extension of one political party or the other. Their job is to help hold the government accountable for the decision's it makes.

If people are being honest, they will concede that the MSM is failing us just as bad as the actual politicians. If they can't admit that, then you know which side of the aisle they vote for without having to look at their registration card.

I think part of the issue in this case is two fold:

1. The 24 news cycle and the overlap of what I'll call "talking heads" and actual real news reporting agencies. Think people on TV constantly giving their opinion on actual news, or even predicting or talking about what might have happened can truly come across as news (particularly when they are on a station named after a news agency or with News in its name). But they aren't. They don't have the same editorial integrity, and thats why Fox News can argue in court that someone like Tucker Carlson is entertainment and not news.

2. I see this a lot (since I'm responding to you HT, I want to be clear I am not necessarily talking about you). But often I see a news agency reporting allegations. The allegations have been made, or a court case file, etc etc etc, and they are reporting on it. And if its about someone's "side" or "team" if you will, and then the person ends up being innocent, or the allegations aren't true, etc, I often see people call out the news agency. Which is madness to me. Whether you agree with it or not, someone being charged or accused of something at the highest levels is in fact news. Now, if they are running unsubstantiated rumors, etc, I get it. And I think some sometimes complaints are valid when discussing anonymous sources, etc, so this isn't a cart blanche, its all ok as long as they are just reporting allegations (the media version of "I said with all due respect"). But I do see a lot of complaining about news that is literally just news about someone you like that may not be positive.

 

[harristeeter]

I think part of the issue in this case is two fold:

1. The 24 news cycle and the overlap of what I'll call "talking heads" and actual real news reporting agencies. Think people on TV constantly giving their opinion on actual news, or even predicting or talking about what might have happened can truly come across as news (particularly when they are on a station named after a news agency or with News in its name). But they aren't. They don't have the same editorial integrity, and thats why Fox News can argue in court that someone like Tucker Carlson is entertainment and not news.

2. I see this a lot (since I'm responding to you HT, I want to be clear I am not necessarily talking about you). But often I see a news agency reporting allegations. The allegations have been made, or a court case file, etc etc etc, and they are reporting on it. And if its about someone's "side" or "team" if you will, and then the person ends up being innocent, or the allegations aren't true, etc, I often see people call out the news agency. Which is madness to me. Whether you agree with it or not, someone being charged or accused of something at the highest levels is in fact news. Now, if they are running unsubstantiated rumors, etc, I get it. And I think some sometimes complaints are valid when discussing anonymous sources, etc, so this isn't a cart blanche, its all ok as long as they are just reporting allegations (the media version of "I said with all due respect"). But I do see a lot of complaining about news that is literally just news about someone you like that may not be positive.

You mentioned in another post that you were a Republican and now have shifted. The news media did the opposite for me. I was raised an independent and have voted over my lifetime for both "Pubs" and "Dems". When watching "MSM" it was overtly obvious which party they cater to.
Fox equals "the right"
vs
Every other outlet equals "the left"

For the longest time I just didn't watch any of it........I'm talking years. As you stated, the 24 hour nonstop news cycle is what turned me off. No more "news", just slanted opinion from whomever was on. That's not what I was after, I just wanted the news. The same thing happened over at ESPN years ago when they brought on ESPN News. That started the downfall for me with that company. I wanted highlights, not opinions.

That said, after the debate a few weeks ago I flipped thru multiple outlets CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC for several days up until Joe "bowed" out and Kamala took over. It's quite comical how the outlets don't even hide it anymore. IMO, if we want to get the nation back together, it starts with having "the information" that is transmitted more in the middle and not so far from center. And that goes for ALL of them.

It's kind of like ESPN always promoting the SEC, everyone hates it that's not in the conference but what were you going to do. It turned alot of people off towards teams in the conference due to always hearing about how great they are. With the MSM, they're always promoting one and downplaying the other. For those that can't see that I don't know what to tell them. Again, that's for BOTH sides.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

You mentioned in another post that you were a Republican and now have shifted. The news media did the opposite for me. I was raised an independent and have voted over my lifetime for both "Pubs" and "Dems". When watching "MSM" it was overtly obvious which party they cater to.
Fox equals "the right"
vs
Every other outlet equals "the left"

For the longest time I just didn't watch any of it........I'm talking years. As you stated, the 24 hour nonstop news cycle is what turned me off. No more "news", just slanted opinion from whomever was on. That's not what I was after, I just wanted the news. The same thing happened over at ESPN years ago when they brought on ESPN News. That started the downfall for me with that company. I wanted highlights, not opinions.

That said, after the debate a few weeks ago I flipped thru multiple outlets CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC for several days up until Joe "bowed" out and Kamala took over. It's quite comical how the outlets don't even hide it anymore. IMO, if we want to get the nation back together, it starts with having "the information" that is transmitted more in the middle and not so far from center. And that goes for ALL of them.

It's kind of like ESPN always promoting the SEC, everyone hates it that's not in the conference but what were you going to do. It turned alot of people off towards teams in the conference due to always hearing about how great they are. With the MSM, they're always promoting one and downplaying the other. For those that can't see that I don't know what to tell them. Again, that's for BOTH sides.

Right, I think what you're mostly describing is the entertainment side of MSM, the 24 hour news cycle. And for that I completely agree. And also think you're right about the biases. The single hour or two of straight news each day ends up practically hidden. Same thing happens with print (or digital articles) with editorials or opinion pieces, tweets, threads, etc.

My main point I guess is that I think it is still important to note and call out the difference. Because what I see a lot is someone taking frustration with the biased "talking heads" and then use it as an excuse to basically discount actual news that they just don't like.

 

[Tiger Guru]

You mentioned in another post that you were a Republican and now have shifted. The news media did the opposite for me. I was raised an independent and have voted over my lifetime for both "Pubs" and "Dems". When watching "MSM" it was overtly obvious which party they cater to.
Fox equals "the right"
vs
Every other outlet equals "the left"

For the longest time I just didn't watch any of it........I'm talking years. As you stated, the 24 hour nonstop news cycle is what turned me off. No more "news", just slanted opinion from whomever was on. That's not what I was after, I just wanted the news. The same thing happened over at ESPN years ago when they brought on ESPN News. That started the downfall for me with that company. I wanted highlights, not opinions.

That said, after the debate a few weeks ago I flipped thru multiple outlets CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC for several days up until Joe "bowed" out and Kamala took over. It's quite comical how the outlets don't even hide it anymore. IMO, if we want to get the nation back together, it starts with having "the information" that is transmitted more in the middle and not so far from center. And that goes for ALL of them.

It's kind of like ESPN always promoting the SEC, everyone hates it that's not in the conference but what were you going to do. It turned alot of people off towards teams in the conference due to always hearing about how great they are. With the MSM, they're always promoting one and downplaying the other. For those that can't see that I don't know what to tell them. Again, that's for BOTH sides.

This happened to me as well. Raised mostly left by far, but the news media pushed me right.

When Clinton changed the news media from like 50 down to 6 major companies, it created these talking points and it feels very robotic and forced (operation mockingbird). The ESPN/SEC analogy is great way to describe it.

I just wish we had news without agenda. I don't care if our Presidents make bad decisions, but don't defend them when they do and certainly don't enable them. Audit every Tax-Payer dollar spent like the NFL draft and televise the results and hold people accountable.

I don't want or need to be entertained, I just want our money accounted for and spent correctly, regardless of the letter beside your name. I don't have the "need a break from politics" mindset. For me, I need a break from the distractions and tell me what's really going on with our money. Just like anyone would do within their household. You don't get a break from the bills and real life problems.

Our prisons are full of people peddling drugs and it should be full of former politicians caught stealing taxpayer dollars, misrepresenting the people and putting us in wars that our kids have to fight, while we fund it and they get rich.

 

[fatpiggy]

Voted for both pubs and dems over my lifetime. Voted Obama (yuge mistake) his first election.

When i saw the government using government resources to defeat a political candidate, that was a sign that the government was too powerful and citizens need to protect their rights. The government should work for the people, the people shouldn't work for the government.

I will vote for whoever protects capitalism and individual freedom the most and right now that is the MAGA party.

 

[BlueRidgedf]

Republicans are too stupid about abortion and they need to get off their high horse about it.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Voted for both pubs and dems over my lifetime. Voted Obama (yuge mistake) his first election.

When i saw the government using government resources to defeat a political candidate, that was a sign that the government was too powerful and citizens need to protect their rights. The government should work for the people, the people shouldn't work for the government.

I will vote for whoever protects capitalism and individual freedom the most and right now that is the MAGA party.

Can you share what some of the negatives of the MAGA party are in your opinion?

 

[Tiger Guru]

Republicans are too stupid about abortion and they need to get off their high horse about it.

I think both parties are very ignorant in their social issues.

I don’t think most people in this country would value the social issue in their life over the fiscal issue in their lives. The social issues, feel like the biggest distraction in the world to me. It’s like a sleight of hand, imo. It certainly feels like pandering. We should never not address them, but they’re way below the most important things effecting us daily.

The bills coming to my house don’t care about my issues, the money is due regardless. The other countries in this world don’t care about our social issues either.

I feel like most of us can sniff bullcrap and lies. When your kids lie, you know. When someone is lying to you, you typically know. It’s like we’re all being lied to and we know it, but don’t really do anything to stop it. It’s extremely odd to me.

We would never accept that behavior in our lives nor ignore it, but we do with the people we elect to spend out money.

 

[fatpiggy]

Can you share what some of the negatives of the MAGA party are in your opinion?

They don't have any that i am aware of.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

I don’t think most people in this country would value the social issue in their life over the fiscal issue in their lives. The social issues, feel like the biggest distraction in the world to me. It’s like a sleight of hand, imo. It certainly feels like pandering. We should never not address them, but they’re way below the most important things effecting us daily.

This is a big part of what I was saying earlier about taking the bait. The distraction, etc. Like, I do care about social issues, but they aren't my number 1, and only concern. But they are "easy" to talk about and debate against I guess.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

They don't have any that i am aware of.

K

 

[clemsontiger02]

My choice is what I choose to do
And if I'm causing no harm, it shouldn't bother you
Your choice is who you choose to be
And if you're causing no harm, then you're alright with me

- Ben Harper, "Burn One Down"


I've been successfully - and happily - abstaining from posting over here, but this thread intrigues me, so I'll weigh-in. I grew up Republican (the old-school, 1980's version), and leaned that way for most of my life. Never voted for Obama, and even donated to the Trump 2016 campaign in its early days, as I truly felt that we had to get away from the pattern of nominating/electing people just because of their last name (I despised Hillary, and wasn't a George W fan at all). All that started to change quickly once I realized that Donald wasn't putting on a show to cut through the noise of a crowded 2016 primary. He was actually telling us exactly who he was, and who he would be. And the GOP completely transformed themselves to bend to his will. So, given that we live in a ridiculous two-party system, I've had to reluctantly align myself more with Democrats - a group I have called "inept" numerous times on this forum - over the past few years. But I truly consider myself an independent, and claim neither party as my own.

And as a current political independent, what I despise most is the hyper-partisanship of the entire political atmosphere. We should celebrate politicians who cross the aisle to pass meaningful legislation for the nation. Instead they are vilified by the loudest voices inside their own party for daring to "give the other side a win". What in the actual f*ck is that, and how did we get here?!? How will anything get done if bills are painfully negotiated, but then torpedoed by a group of elected officials for their own political advantage? And here's a little newsflash for you fanboys out there: No one on either side is trying to "destroy America". They all care about this country we share, but just have very different ideas about their preferred visions of the future. And that's ok. That is America.

On the Left, I'm not a fan of large-scale social programs, like Medicare for All, that realistically can't be paid-for. We need to be much more fiscally conservative as a nation, and reign-in spending. I'm also not someone who is ok with people who were born biologically male competing in sports against biological females. Nature is nature, and the physiology of our bodies are scientifically different. But here's the thing: aside from the athletic competitions, I DON'T GIVE TWO SHITS HOW SOMEONE ELSE WANTS TO LIVE THEIR PRIVATE LIFE. And I think the majority of Americans agree with me.

Which brings me to one of my main criticisms of the Right: they need to quit thinking that they have found the "correct" way to live, and stop trying to impose those ways and beliefs on others. No one cares about the culture wars the way they do within their own little echo chambers. Most people just want to use their preciously-short time on this planet to do whatever makes them happy. They want to love who they want to love, live how they want to live, and simply be who they want to be. If that includes being romantic with someone of the same sex, attending a drag show, sparking up a doobie at the end of a long day, or even choosing to terminate a pregnancy for a variety of legitimate reasons, that is their choice. This country was founded on the core principle that Americans have an inherent right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", and that's all that most of us want.

The primary problem for the GOP is that they have become a cult of personality around one narcissistic a$$hole, and are willing to contort beliefs and positions to accommodate his whims. They decried the notion of nominating a supreme court justice before an election...until it was politically convenient for them. They torpedoed border legislature in order to be able to keep bitching about it without a solution. They are willing to believe and spread outright lies about imaginary election fraud. They will re-work local laws and procedures around vote-counting, so that someone can claim fraud - without ANY proof - and affect the outcome. Hell, the Republicans didn't even have a platform for 2020, instead bowing to whatever DJT would decide to do.

America desperately needs a serious third party option. And I'm not talking about RFK Jr, or Kanye, or even Gary Johnson (whom I voted-for in 2016). We need a viable option for those of us in the middle, so that we aren't presented with these terrible candidates who represent the extremes of each side.

Until then, I'll suck it up and support the side that is more aligned with the live-and-let-live philosophy to which I adhere. Vote Harris!

 

[Tiger Guru]

This is a big part of what I was saying earlier about taking the bait. The distraction, etc. Like, I do care about social issues, but they aren't my number 1, and only concern. But they are "easy" to talk about and debate against I guess.

100 percent. Its the low hanging fruit and my radar goes up when you're bullcrapping me or trying to get me to "look over here". I think we all feel that way.

 

[Tiger Guru]

My choice is what I choose to do
And if I'm causing no harm, it shouldn't bother you
Your choice is who you choose to be
And if you're causing no harm, then you're alright with me

- Ben Harper, "Burn One Down"


I've been successfully - and happily - abstaining from posting over here, but this thread intrigues me, so I'll weigh-in. I grew up Republican (the old-school, 1980's version), and leaned that way for most of my life. Never voted for Obama, and even donated to the Trump 2016 campaign in its early days, as I truly felt that we had to get away from the pattern of nominating/electing people just because of their last name (I despised Hillary, and wasn't a George W fan at all). All that started to change quickly once I realized that Donald wasn't putting on a show to cut through the noise of a crowded 2016 primary. He was actually telling us exactly who he was, and who he would be. And the GOP completely transformed themselves to bend to his will. So, given that we live in a ridiculous two-party system, I've had to reluctantly align myself more with Democrats - a group I have called "inept" numerous times on this forum - over the past few years. But I truly consider myself an independent, and claim neither party as my own.

And as a current political independent, what I despise most is the hyper-partisanship of the entire political atmosphere. We should celebrate politicians who cross the aisle to pass meaningful legislation for the nation. Instead they are vilified by the loudest voices inside their own party for daring to "give the other side a win". What in the actual f*ck is that, and how did we get here?!? How will anything get done if bills are painfully negotiated, but then torpedoed by a group of elected officials for their own political advantage? And here's a little newsflash for you fanboys out there: No one on either side is trying to "destroy America". They all care about this country we share, but just have very different ideas about their preferred visions of the future. And that's ok. That is America.

On the Left, I'm not a fan of large-scale social programs, like Medicare for All, that realistically can't be paid-for. We need to be much more fiscally conservative as a nation, and reign-in spending. I'm also not someone who is ok with people who were born biologically male competing in sports against biological females. Nature is nature, and the physiology of our bodies are scientifically different. But here's the thing: aside from the athletic competitions, I DON'T GIVE TWO SHITS HOW SOMEONE ELSE WANTS TO LIVE THEIR PRIVATE LIFE. And I think the majority of Americans agree with me.

Which brings me to one of my main criticisms of the Right: they need to quit thinking that they have found the "correct" way to live, and stop trying to impose those ways and beliefs on others. No one cares about the culture wars the way they do within their own little echo chambers. Most people just want to use their preciously-short time on this planet to do whatever makes them happy. They want to love who they want to love, live how they want to live, and simply be who they want to be. If that includes being romantic with someone of the same sex, attending a drag show, sparking up a doobie at the end of a long day, or even choosing to terminate a pregnancy for a variety of legitimate reasons, that is their choice. This country was founded on the core principle that Americans have an inherent right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", and that's all that most of us want.

The primary problem for the GOP is that they have become a cult of personality around one narcissistic a$$hole, and are willing to contort beliefs and positions to accommodate his whims. They decried the notion of nominating a supreme court justice before an election...until it was politically convenient for them. They torpedoed border legislature in order to be able to keep bitching about it without a solution. They are willing to believe and spread outright lies about imaginary election fraud. They will re-work local laws and procedures around vote-counting, so that someone can claim fraud - without ANY proof - and affect the outcome. Hell, the Republicans didn't even have a platform for 2020, instead bowing to whatever DJT would decide to do.

America desperately needs a serious third party option. And I'm not talking about RFK Jr, or Kanye, or even Gary Johnson (whom I voted-for in 2016). We need a viable option for those of us in the middle, so that we aren't presented with these terrible candidates who represent the extremes of each side.

Until then, I'll suck it up and support the side that is more aligned with the live-and-let-live philosophy to which I adhere. Vote Harris!

Good Stuff, thanks for sharing.

I'd add that I don't think the GOP likes Trump. I don't think they ever have. I remember vividly them being afraid he was going to run as an Independant and so it was a very big deal that he "sign that he wouldn't"

To me, the GOP feels like the dirty crooks who just want to stay in power and win elections. Trump has a massive following. Bernie has a big following, not nearly as big. But, I have to acknowledge that people do like both of them.

For now, the left hasnt caved to Bernie to win an election. The right just wants to win an election, so they pander to Trump.

In all honesty, I would love for Trump to run as an Independant, let the GOP show their hand and nominate their candidate and let the left nominate theirs. If for nothing else, it would allow an actual 3rd party candidate (like him or not) to actually threaten the 2 party system. But man, having someone sign that they wouldn't run as an independent is the shadiest thing I think I've ever seen.

What are they afraid of, losing an election? If thats what the people want and the people voted, then you deal with it. Thats how this works.

 

[fatpiggy]

Good Stuff, thanks for sharing.

I'd add that I don't think the GOP likes Trump. I don't think they ever have. I remember vividly them being afraid he was going to run as an Independant and so it was a very big deal that he "sign that he wouldn't"

To me, the GOP feels like the dirty crooks who just want to stay in power and win elections. Trump has a massive following. Bernie has a big following, not nearly as big. But, I have to acknowledge that people do like both of them.

For now, the left hasnt caved to Bernie to win an election. The right just wants to win an election, so they pander to Trump.

In all honesty, I would love for Trump to run as an Independant, let the GOP show their hand and nominate their candidate and let the left nominate theirs. If for nothing else, it would allow an actual 3rd party candidate (like him or not) to actually threaten the 2 party system. But man, having someone sign that they wouldn't run as an independent is the shadiest thing I think I've ever seen.

What are they afraid of, losing an election? If thats what the people want and the people voted, then you deal with it. Thats how this works.

Trump beat out how many other candidates? He won a legitimate primary and you think the right panders to him?

The democrats didn’t even hold a primary. They appointed someone.

What an odd take

 

[fatpiggy]

K

Mean tweets?

 

[scotchtiger]

Me = Lifelong Republican who does not like the current GOP.

• The party of fiscal conservatism is not fiscally conservative. There is almost no focus on reducing spending. W and Trump were both big spenders.
• They don't actually get things done, just oppose the left (which is needed btw). The highlight here is when pubs had the presidency, house and senate and finally had the long-awaited opportunity to "repeal and replace" Obamacare. After years of advocating for this, they had no plan. Like a dog chasing a car, no clue what to do when they caught it. This moment was a turning point for me. While I didn't leave the GOP, I no longer considered myself really close to the party.
• Abortion policy is a big loser nationally.
• Complete inflexibility on gun legislation is also unreasonable.
• Lots of blowhards looking for their quotes to be replayed on Twitter and Fox rather than actually accomplishing anything productive for the country.
• Morons in the party voted for Donald Trump again instead of a more broadly appealing candidate like Nikki Haley.
• The party was once associated with successful people, businessmen, nuclear families, morality, etc. All things that fit my personal profile. Now it's led by a morally bankrupt person and appeals to a different cohort.

Plenty more. None of that pulls me closer to the democrat party because their policies and general view of the federal government's role are very misaligned with my views. So I will reluctantly support this version of the GOP in hopes that we prevent leftist legislation for now and eventually see the light and come back to a sensible and productive party.

 

[Mr. Roger Dorn]

In short, fanning the flames of culture war in front of cameras while propping up corporatism (for personal gain) behind closed doors.

 

[Tiger Guru]

Trump beat out how many other candidates? He won a legitimate primary and you think the right panders to him?

The democrats didn’t even hold a primary. They appointed someone.

What an odd take

My point is, I think they need Trump to win elections. They Republicans ride his coattail, and pander to his audience.

If Trump ran as an Independant, his people will follow. But I doubt many GOP's will. I doubt many "repblicans" in office will all of a sudden support him. They only support him because if he runs as an independent, they'll lose.

Maybe an odd take, but it's just an opinion.

 

[Tiger Guru]

Me = Lifelong Republican who does not like the current GOP.

• The party of fiscal conservatism is not fiscally conservative. There is almost no focus on reducing spending. W and Trump were both big spenders.
• They don't actually get things done, just oppose the left (which is needed btw). The highlight here is when pubs had the presidency, house and senate and finally had the long-awaited opportunity to "repeal and replace" Obamacare. After years of advocating for this, they had no plan. Like a dog chasing a car, no clue what to do when they caught it. This moment was a turning point for me. While I didn't leave the GOP, I no longer considered myself really close to the party.
• Abortion policy is a big loser nationally.
• Complete inflexibility on gun legislation is also unreasonable.
• Lots of blowhards looking for their quotes to be replayed on Twitter and Fox rather than actually accomplishing anything productive for the country.
• Morons in the party voted for Donald Trump again instead of a more broadly appealing candidate like Nikki Haley.
• The party was once associated with successful people, businessmen, nuclear families, morality, etc. All things that fit my personal profile. Now it's led by a morally bankrupt person and appeals to a different cohort.

Plenty more. None of that pulls me closer to the democrat party because their policies and general view of the federal government's role are very misaligned with my views. So I will reluctantly support this version of the GOP in hopes that we prevent leftist legislation for now and eventually see the light and come back to a sensible and productive party.

Thanks for sharing. This is a great read.

 

[Tiger Guru]

In short, fanning the flames of culture war in front of cameras while propping up corporatism (for personal gain) behind closed doors.

It's amazing how many Americans feel this same way.

Begs the question:

Are they doing this on purpose or is it just incompetency?

I think we can live with incompetency, because it can be fixed or changed. People make mistakes and wrong decisions every day. But, that's very different than throwing gas on the fire or purposefully causing chaos.

 

[Mr. Roger Dorn]

It's amazing how many Americans feel this same way.

Begs the question:

Are they doing this on purpose or is it just incompetency?

I think we can live with incompetency, because it can be fixed or changed. People make mistakes and wrong decisions every day. But, that's very different than throwing gas on the fire or purposefully causing chaos.

I’m afraid “both” may be the reality.

I don’t know why any serious, principled person that views serving in congress as a civil service would subject themself to everything that it entails these days.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Mean tweets?

I mean, sure. If that's something negative to you that you wish they wouldn't do, yes. Feels like another form of the messaging issue I mentioned. I just know there is something, you know. So feels disingenuous to say nothing. I believe there was something else you disagreed with Trump on that I can't remember. Maybe Tariffs, or some tax issue, I can't remember. Basically, I guess my point is you can still fully support your party over others while not 100% agreeing with everything they do. People get taken more seriously and have more real discussions if they're willing to see their own sides faults. Of course that's my own opinion, maybe you have lots of good discussions with people who never concede ground or admit things that are obvious, etc.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

It's amazing how many Americans feel this same way.

Begs the question:

Are they doing this on purpose or is it just incompetency?

I think we can live with incompetency, because it can be fixed or changed. People make mistakes and wrong decisions every day. But, that's very different than throwing gas on the fire or purposefully causing chaos.

I think culture wars and social issues are a LOT easier to run against (this is on both sides) than actual real issues that often have nuance and may not fit in a tweet.

 

[hopefultiger13]

It's become increasingly odd to me to see people defend their party, even when they do wrong. As someone who absolutely loves good old fashion discussion, I think it's making people blinded to their downfalls. How does one learn from their mistakes if they always make excuses or defend them?

In this thread, let's talk about what you think your party is wrong for, shouldn't do or something about them that makes you cringe, and you wish they would change.

Don't defend them in here. Instead, discuss what they do wrong.

Hopefully, our tribalism isn't too strong, and this isn't impossible. But I think there's lots of people who could learn from a thread like this, and I am addicted to learning.

We all know what right and wrong is. Lying, cheating and stealing is wrong and corrupt, we would all agree.

What say you?

Well, I don't have a party. I would honestly be ashamed to be associated with either party. I've never been a Dem although I've voted more for them in recent years. I was a Republican for a while, but I left the party back in the 90s when the NRA stopped being an organization that promoted safe gun use for hunting and target shooting and became crazy right wing nuts. The Republicans carried on for a while and I MOSTLY voted for them until the tea party came into power and the right started to collectively lose their minds. This process became complete when Trump came to power and the Republican party that I knew ceased to exist.

All that being said I suppose that I'd certainly qualify as more to the left of most on this board, so I'll do them:

The Dems have many viewpoints that I agree with... mostly social as I'm more conservative with fiscal/foreign policy. For instance, I'm all about EVERYONE having equal rights and equal protection under the law. So while I don't really give a lot of thought on a day to day basis about LGBT community, I'm generally supportive of them. They should get the same rights as everyone (including marriage) and shouldn't be discriminated against. But apparently that's not enough for a lot of left leaning folks and I find that to be my major gripe with the Dems.

I don't believe that minors should have body/gender altering procedures before they are 18 (even WITH parental permission). I believe that you should use the restroom that corresponds to the plumbing you have. I believe that you should play sports with the gender you had when you were born. That makes me a bad person with a lot of folks on the left and I'm sure that I'd get canceled if I were out there on social media yacking it up about my views. As Ronald Regan said, if someone agrees with you 70% of the time, that person is your friend, not your enemy, but a lot of far left folks don't think that way. That's my biggest gripe.

 

[Tiger Guru]

Well, I don't have a party. I would honestly be ashamed to be associated with either party. I've never been a Dem although I've voted more for them in recent years. I was a Republican for a while, but I left the party back in the 90s when the NRA stopped being an organization that promoted safe gun use for hunting and target shooting and became crazy right wing nuts. The Republicans carried on for a while and I MOSTLY voted for them until the tea party came into power and the right started to collectively lose their minds. This process became complete when Trump came to power and the Republican party that I knew ceased to exist.

All that being said I suppose that I'd certainly qualify as more to the left of most on this board, so I'll do them:

The Dems have many viewpoints that I agree with... mostly social as I'm more conservative with fiscal/foreign policy. For instance, I'm all about EVERYONE having equal rights and equal protection under the law. So while I don't really give a lot of thought on a day to day basis about LGBT community, I'm generally supportive of them. They should get the same rights as everyone (including marriage) and shouldn't be discriminated against. But apparently that's not enough for a lot of left leaning folks and I find that to be my major gripe with the Dems.

I don't believe that minors should have body/gender altering procedures before they are 18 (even WITH parental permission). I believe that you should use the restroom that corresponds to the plumbing you have. I believe that you should play sports with the gender you had when you were born. That makes me a bad person with a lot of folks on the left and I'm sure that I'd get canceled if I were out there on social media yacking it up about my views. As Ronald Regan said, if someone agrees with you 70% of the time, that person is your friend, not your enemy, but a lot of far left folks don't think that way. That's my biggest gripe.

Great stuff, thanks for the reply!

Incredible how much we learn about each other and ourselves when we talk.

 

[harristeeter]

Well, I don't have a party. I would honestly be ashamed to be associated with either party. I've never been a Dem although I've voted more for them in recent years. I was a Republican for a while, but I left the party back in the 90s when the NRA stopped being an organization that promoted safe gun use for hunting and target shooting and became crazy right wing nuts. The Republicans carried on for a while and I MOSTLY voted for them until the tea party came into power and the right started to collectively lose their minds. This process became complete when Trump came to power and the Republican party that I knew ceased to exist.

All that being said I suppose that I'd certainly qualify as more to the left of most on this board, so I'll do them:

The Dems have many viewpoints that I agree with... mostly social as I'm more conservative with fiscal/foreign policy. For instance, I'm all about EVERYONE having equal rights and equal protection under the law. So while I don't really give a lot of thought on a day to day basis about LGBT community, I'm generally supportive of them. They should get the same rights as everyone (including marriage) and shouldn't be discriminated against. But apparently that's not enough for a lot of left leaning folks and I find that to be my major gripe with the Dems.

I don't believe that minors should have body/gender altering procedures before they are 18 (even WITH parental permission). I believe that you should use the restroom that corresponds to the plumbing you have. I believe that you should play sports with the gender you had when you were born. That makes me a bad person with a lot of folks on the left and I'm sure that I'd get canceled if I were out there on social media yacking it up about my views. As Ronald Regan said, if someone agrees with you 70% of the time, that person is your friend, not your enemy, but a lot of far left folks don't think that way. That's my biggest gripe.

Wow, you and I share a lot more in common than I thought. Your last two paragraphs are me in a nutshell.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Me = Lifelong Republican who does not like the current GOP.

• The party of fiscal conservatism is not fiscally conservative. There is almost no focus on reducing spending. W and Trump were both big spenders.
• They don't actually get things done, just oppose the left (which is needed btw). The highlight here is when pubs had the presidency, house and senate and finally had the long-awaited opportunity to "repeal and replace" Obamacare. After years of advocating for this, they had no plan. Like a dog chasing a car, no clue what to do when they caught it. This moment was a turning point for me. While I didn't leave the GOP, I no longer considered myself really close to the party.
• Abortion policy is a big loser nationally.
• Complete inflexibility on gun legislation is also unreasonable.
• Lots of blowhards looking for their quotes to be replayed on Twitter and Fox rather than actually accomplishing anything productive for the country.
• Morons in the party voted for Donald Trump again instead of a more broadly appealing candidate like Nikki Haley.
• The party was once associated with successful people, businessmen, nuclear families, morality, etc. All things that fit my personal profile. Now it's led by a morally bankrupt person and appeals to a different cohort.

Plenty more. None of that pulls me closer to the democrat party because their policies and general view of the federal government's role are very misaligned with my views. So I will reluctantly support this version of the GOP in hopes that we prevent leftist legislation for now and eventually see the light and come back to a sensible and productive party.

I really like this. I suspect that you are a bit more conservative than I am, but I can agree with a lot of this.

 

[Tiger Guru]

Wow, you and I share a lot more in common than I thought. Your last two paragraphs are me in a nutshell.

Same. It's wild just how many of us agree on nearly everything but are forced to draw a line against each other every 4 years.

 

[dpic73]

So I will reluctantly support this version of the GOP in hopes that we prevent leftist legislation for now and eventually see the light and come back to a sensible and productive party.

I appreciate your reply but I do wonder about this last sentence. How will supporting this version of the Republican party help them return to a sensible party? If MAGA gets back in, it seems like that will put the nail in the coffin of traditional conservative politics. I would think that letting Kamala fall on her face while Trump is out of the picture to be the better course. Thoughts?

 

[yoshi121374]

You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.
Robert A. Heinlein

This is the truesat quote I've read in a while and completely explains today's political environment.

I have stated many times my thoughts, but since this is starting as a great thread, I'll share again.

I have generally voted Democrat, mainly due to social issues and the support of Education and the Arts. I am very much on favor of the LGBT community having equal rights, but I do think that the far left pushes waaay to far for most Americans, including me. I don't think biological males should compete with females in sports. I don't like the plans to forgive Student Loans, but I do there.should be a look at the predatory lending practices.

AS I've said before. I could absolutely vote for a Republican such as Nikki Haley, but I will never vote for someone like Trump. Outside of his personal story of adultery,sexual assault, and failed businesses, I hate the level of rhetoric he has introduced to American Politics. The insults, the name-calling, and the outward racist comments have emboldened the worst parts of America.

As mentioned above,the partisanship and demonizing of those who reach across the party lines to get stuff done is awful and the absolute antithesis of what our government is supposed to do.

 

[yoshi121374]

I really like this. I suspect that you are a bit more conservative than I am, but I can agree with a lot of this.

Absolutely agree here. I have said many times on here that we have folks who can discuss topics civilly and @scotchtiger is one of those. I'm really trying to avoid the personal attacks and try to stick to the political issues. It's hard, but I'm really trying lol

 

[Tiger Guru]

You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.
Robert A. Heinlein

This is the truesat quote I've read in a while and completely explains today's political environment.

I have stated many times my thoughts, but since this is starting as a great thread, I'll share again.

I have generally voted Democrat, mainly due to social issues and the support of Education and the Arts. I am very much on favor of the LGBT community having equal rights, but I do think that the far left pushes waaay to far for most Americans, including me. I don't think biological males should compete with females in sports. I don't like the plans to forgive Student Loans, but I do there.should be a look at the predatory lending practices.

AS I've said before. I could absolutely vote for a Republican such as Nikki Haley, but I will never vote for someone like Trump. Outside of his personal story of adultery,sexual assault, and failed businesses, I hate the level of rhetoric he has introduced to American Politics. The insults, the name-calling, and the outward racist comments have emboldened the worst parts of America.

As mentioned above,the partisanship and demonizing of those who reach across the party lines to get stuff done is awful and the absolute antithesis of what our government is supposed to do.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Tiger Guru]

Absolutely agree here. I have said many times on here that we have folks who can discuss topics civilly and @scotchtiger is one of those. I'm really trying to avoid the personal attacks and try to stick to the political issues. It's hard, but I'm really trying lol

Thanks for that. I have found myself really enjoying talking far more than I ever have about real things. I've also found that so many people enjoy talking as well, so long as it doesn't turn into "I'm right and here's why".

I did this very exercise on a friend that is 100% opposite of me and likely didn't want to have this conversation. Over some bourbon and cigar, I said "lets talk about what we don't like and what we wish we could fix about us". Dude, it turned into one of the best conversations and I saw firsthand him feel relieved that he was able to articulate a conversation for so long without ever feeling attacked. I felt the same. Someone who would see red when about this topic was now listening and vice versa.

We all visit the "off topic: Political zone" but there's way too much "Look at how bad you are" instead of actual learning about each other.

I started this thread with the same hope. We're all passionate but man, I really do enjoy discussing amongst each other. It's hard at times to articulate your thoughts without attacking, but we've done a great job in here. It's also a reminder of just how small the extremes are.

Disagreeing is part of it. It's part of learning. But reading this thread is a reminder that we're all wanting the same things. We have different opinions about how to get there, but you wouldn't be as willing to listen to someone who could articulate their thoughts without personal attacks. This thread is proof it can be done and almost everyone in here has had some really awful things to say about each other in other threads but find common ground in this one.

It's impressive. It's work and it's not easy to do.