NO FLAME SIMPLE QUESTION RE: TRUMP / ISIS
- Thread starter TAINT_PAINT
- Start date
Because they represent the 12th century (maybe generous) in theology, economics and method. Western people raised in a society of "safe places", "equality" and "fairness" will never get it and will be downright terrified. Personally, I think they will collapse of their own accord at some point once they run their course-kind of like a societal virus. Plus it sounds a lot scarier than four years of either Trump or Hils-that scares me more.
Their goal is to kill all of the infidels. That's us.
Oh, and WRT the political side of the question, I demand two new candidates and a re-do!!!!!!! I know America can do better than this.
Why fear ISIS? Because they want to kill EVERYONE (infidels) who does not believe like they do (13th Century sect of Islam). It includes Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. They have also inspired and directed others to do it as well.
Paris Terrorist Attack -- 137 Dead
Brussels Airport Bombing -- 32 Dead
Nice Truck Attack -- 87 Dead
San Bernadino Attack -- 14 killed
They are despicable and the quicker they are wiped from the Earth the better....I"m not a fan of Clinton or Trump. Both are horrible choices.
Paris Terrorist Attack -- 137 Dead
Brussels Airport Bombing -- 32 Dead
Nice Truck Attack -- 87 Dead
San Bernadino Attack -- 14 killed
They are despicable and the quicker they are wiped from the Earth the better....I"m not a fan of Clinton or Trump. Both are horrible choices.
Scare tactics is Trumps fallback when direct bullying doesn't work.
SO JUST TO PLAY DEVILS ADVOCATE HERE - WHAT IF YOU GREW UP IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND WERE TAUGHT THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS ATTACKING ISLAM. WOULD IT NOT BE PLAUSIBLE TO YOU THAT THE MASSIVE MILITARY CAMPAIGN IN THE MIDDLE EAST LED BY THE US WOULD SUPPORT THAT NARRATIVE?
Before I answer, I must ask, as a mod, do your political views reflect those of the Tiger illustrated site?
Well yah, thats the whole problem with what we've been doing. The 'winning the hearts and minds' campaign never worked.
You do know ISIS kills fellow Muslims by the thousands, right? They view fellow Muslims who don't believe like they do as apostates/infidels. The King of Jordan, a Muslim, was on 60 Minutes few weeks ago and did a great job talking about the threat they pose to the whole Middle East. Muslims generally call ISIS "Daesh" which means "sows discord." ISIS threatened to cut out the tongue of anyone who uses it so it's obviously a good term.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-king-abudallah-jordan-amid-crisis/
I'm not afraid of ISIS. Notice how all of those acts of terror took place on foreign soil? Yeah, that's because ISIS knew TT wasn't over there. Let them try to pull some shit over here in Anderson, SC and they'll get to meet their 70 virgin goats in hell a whole lot sooner than they expected.
I fear ISIS BUT
In reality I FEAR far more the reality of the lawlessness in the central government in which the executive branch POTUS , IRS DOJ and FBI collude to decide who is guilty and innocent NOT based on the laws of the land but who you are and what can you do for me for money and power
The FBI and DOJ rank and file are in turmoil as the outcome of the EMAIL scandal was pre-determined and not even investigated .
No legitimate investigation follows the path Comey forced on the agents AND they are telling that now off the record at the moment
Soon to be public that Comey was biased and fraudulent
The FBI now has NO CREDIBILITY to the average citizen as too big to jail is the mantra
The IRS obstructed justice and the director had records destroyed
The lawlessness extends into all major corporations who post these wonderful Rules and Ethics and then in spite of saying "NO RETALIATION" fire and demonize employees who report the lawlessness and also those who were following the orders of management to chat customers or break laws and those criminal managers walk away with huge bonuses and fired employees can't find a job.
Look at the Wells Fargo mess I don't think I have ever agreed with Elizabeth Warren but she was dead on in saying criminal charges and jail for the bank officers.
Or the mainstream media with a huge far and when I say far I FAR left bias beyond reasonable as the collusion shown by the emails now proves that most medias are tools and lap dogs of the government
ISIS is a footnote in history. They are dangerous but in the short term
The LONG TERM DANGER to ALL AMERICANS is our own path we are heading with the government.
And for those ho continue to buy the line the Russians are hacking us , wake up as we have capability beyond anyone in the world
The first suspect in a murder case is always the spouse so look close to home
Those who love liberty are losing it I mourn for my children and grandchildren and those who follow as the BEST of America is being destroyed by corruption and decay of the government
We are at end of days for a republican democracy and just don't know it yet
And Nixon was impeached for a few minutes on a tape
How low can the government go?
In reality I FEAR far more the reality of the lawlessness in the central government in which the executive branch POTUS , IRS DOJ and FBI collude to decide who is guilty and innocent NOT based on the laws of the land but who you are and what can you do for me for money and power
The FBI and DOJ rank and file are in turmoil as the outcome of the EMAIL scandal was pre-determined and not even investigated .
No legitimate investigation follows the path Comey forced on the agents AND they are telling that now off the record at the moment
Soon to be public that Comey was biased and fraudulent
The FBI now has NO CREDIBILITY to the average citizen as too big to jail is the mantra
The IRS obstructed justice and the director had records destroyed
The lawlessness extends into all major corporations who post these wonderful Rules and Ethics and then in spite of saying "NO RETALIATION" fire and demonize employees who report the lawlessness and also those who were following the orders of management to chat customers or break laws and those criminal managers walk away with huge bonuses and fired employees can't find a job.
Look at the Wells Fargo mess I don't think I have ever agreed with Elizabeth Warren but she was dead on in saying criminal charges and jail for the bank officers.
Or the mainstream media with a huge far and when I say far I FAR left bias beyond reasonable as the collusion shown by the emails now proves that most medias are tools and lap dogs of the government
ISIS is a footnote in history. They are dangerous but in the short term
The LONG TERM DANGER to ALL AMERICANS is our own path we are heading with the government.
And for those ho continue to buy the line the Russians are hacking us , wake up as we have capability beyond anyone in the world
The first suspect in a murder case is always the spouse so look close to home
Those who love liberty are losing it I mourn for my children and grandchildren and those who follow as the BEST of America is being destroyed by corruption and decay of the government
We are at end of days for a republican democracy and just don't know it yet
And Nixon was impeached for a few minutes on a tape
How low can the government go?
Comey is a Republican. Comey is a Republican. Comey is a Republican.
He was also widely admired by both parties as a straight shooter. Sometimes there is just not enough evidence to bring a case. It happens.
if hillary gets into the white house, the middle east will evolve into ww3 with russia nad possibly china opposed to us.
if trump gets into the white house and we start working with russia and quit trying to overthrow assad for a stupid pipeline, we might overt ww3.
but ww3 might be good for us. will be good for the economy.
need something to kickstart the economy again.
going from fax machines to emails were more important than anything for our economy.
going from pagers to cell phones- huge advance in efficiency in our economy.
whats next to make our economy more efficient
or whats next to increase our marketing globally?
sucks we focus on groping, blowjobs, rapes, and tax records instead of focusing on what needs to be done.
i understand deleting emails AFTER you been subpoenaed
but why "acid wash" the hard drive?
Having a history as a Republican has NOTHING to do with laws and evidence
I am an independent so I take no sides when it comes to justice
No one is too big to jail
Let's ask the hundreds of FBI and DOJ career employees who were forced to do NDA's, recommendations to convene a Grand Jury was ignored by DOJ Loretta Lynch and Comey, blanket immunity was issued without reason, evidence such as the computers was destroyed ( called obstruction of justice), no videos or recordings were made and according to massive leaks now pouring from the agencies the recommendations to prosecute by career FBI and DOJ employees was ignored
Perjury to Congress which is a felony was ignored and I can't recall which is NOT A DEFENSE was most of the conversation
Let's say I have knowledge of how the stuff works and the laws regarding classifications
Intent is NOT even a question That was the bizarre twist as simply not following rules regardless of intent is guilty just so you know the law
Because of the content
Hillary has made deals with Putin yet the laughable thing is she claims Trump has
Just count on the ubiquitous lack of being informed and savvy of the average American to think when Donald Trump says BJ he is referring to a cabinet position such as DOJ
If what you say is true then Comey would have had to bring charges. He is an honorable man by all that have been around him and far from a pushover. He has pissed off both parties before. Sometimes there just is not a case. IT is hard to accept but that is the fact. If he had one it would have made his career to take down a likely future President.
What I say is absolutely true and Comey even laid out the exact verbiage in his press conference of why people are charged with espionage that handle classified documents.
One day we may find what bought him off.
That is why it is so head scratching. A slam dunk case that a half-witted prosecutor could win after hanging an all nighter on.
The sad part of this is after Hillary wins the election it will totally disappear as Congress has no gonads and power any more.
Dem or Republican they are all lap dogs for special interests.
One day we may find what bought him off.
That is why it is so head scratching. A slam dunk case that a half-witted prosecutor could win after hanging an all nighter on.
The sad part of this is after Hillary wins the election it will totally disappear as Congress has no gonads and power any more.
Dem or Republican they are all lap dogs for special interests.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, hang on just a minute...blow jobs are definitely something that needs to be focused on.
Please read this...........Comey left the legal reservation ...........He went totally in the tank for criminal behavior.......FBI is screwed until he is fired or leaves
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...i-director-s-tortured-interpretation-law.html
I'm going to bring this one back around to ISIS. ISIS is absolutely nothing to fear. They are currently getting the shiit kicked out of them by the Iraqi Army and Syrian militias. And these two forces are hardly elite. In fact armed rabble springs to mind when I think about them.
Sure, there are a bunch of fanatics around the world that are looking to cause trouble. They used to be Al Queda, now they are ISIS. When ISIS is gone, they will be whoever the new flavor of the year is. They are malcontents and it's THEM that are doing the real damage. ISIS didn't send "agents" to do their bombing. They just got credit when the locals do this.
This is a middle east problem and they need to solve it. As is pointed out above, ISIS wants them dead too. The ONE thing we can do to really screw this up is invade something else:
We went over in the 90s and put troops in Saudi. Sure we kicked Sadam's ass, but putting unbelievers in the muslim holy land freaked out the crazies and bang! Osama (a CIA trained operative against the Russians) goes off the rails and forms Al Queda to wage war against us.
We invaded Afganistan in 2002. We are still there almost 15 years later and WHO FREAKING knows how many billions of dollars. We can't leave or the country will collapse and be worse off than when we invaded.
We invaded Iraq a year later. We are still there and IMHO, it's probably 50/50 that the country will collapse if we completely leave. Either Iran will move in, or it will turn into another shiit hole like Afganistan. By the way, when we defeated the Iraqi army, we fired all the soldiers. A lot of their top guys moved into Syria and formed the military heart of ISIS.
Are you sensing a pattern here? I surely hope so, b/c EVERY time we get mixed up in the middle east, it's a disaster. EVERY TIME. We don't belong there, we don't understand the culture, and every time we do put troops on the ground, we unite the area against us b/c NO ONE likes people who invade your country and kill your neighbors.
Stay out of the middle east and spend our money on energy independence. We are energy independent right now, but I'm talking long term. Build some Walmarts... Arabs understand commerce. Encourage democratic governments, but don't interfere. This fanatic thing will die down b/c Arab kids are like most other kids. They'd MUCH rather play an xbox than kneel on a rug, bang their head on the floor, and yell death to America.
Sure, there are a bunch of fanatics around the world that are looking to cause trouble. They used to be Al Queda, now they are ISIS. When ISIS is gone, they will be whoever the new flavor of the year is. They are malcontents and it's THEM that are doing the real damage. ISIS didn't send "agents" to do their bombing. They just got credit when the locals do this.
This is a middle east problem and they need to solve it. As is pointed out above, ISIS wants them dead too. The ONE thing we can do to really screw this up is invade something else:
We went over in the 90s and put troops in Saudi. Sure we kicked Sadam's ass, but putting unbelievers in the muslim holy land freaked out the crazies and bang! Osama (a CIA trained operative against the Russians) goes off the rails and forms Al Queda to wage war against us.
We invaded Afganistan in 2002. We are still there almost 15 years later and WHO FREAKING knows how many billions of dollars. We can't leave or the country will collapse and be worse off than when we invaded.
We invaded Iraq a year later. We are still there and IMHO, it's probably 50/50 that the country will collapse if we completely leave. Either Iran will move in, or it will turn into another shiit hole like Afganistan. By the way, when we defeated the Iraqi army, we fired all the soldiers. A lot of their top guys moved into Syria and formed the military heart of ISIS.
Are you sensing a pattern here? I surely hope so, b/c EVERY time we get mixed up in the middle east, it's a disaster. EVERY TIME. We don't belong there, we don't understand the culture, and every time we do put troops on the ground, we unite the area against us b/c NO ONE likes people who invade your country and kill your neighbors.
Stay out of the middle east and spend our money on energy independence. We are energy independent right now, but I'm talking long term. Build some Walmarts... Arabs understand commerce. Encourage democratic governments, but don't interfere. This fanatic thing will die down b/c Arab kids are like most other kids. They'd MUCH rather play an xbox than kneel on a rug, bang their head on the floor, and yell death to America.
Dude... Do you really believe what you are writing?
First of all, what makes you think that Hillary would escalate anything? Isn't not being tough on terrorism one of the complaints Republicans level at her? Starting Wars in the middle east is definitely a Republican thing…
IF, and that’s a huge IF. The US and Russia were to start shooting at each other in the middle east, it would be a short and completely brutal experience… for Russia. With US strong points to the south in Israel, to the north in Turkey (NATO), and to the east in Iraq, Russia in Syria is at the end of a long and easily disrupted supply line. Unless they are willing to use nukes (and even if they are) they aren’t winning that fight…
You seriously want to ally with Russia? You do realize that they just invaded and took over a sovereign country right? They just shot down a commercial jet with Americans on it and basically told us to suck it. They are busy hacking into our government to try and destabilize our country… Both parties agree on this (except Trump). A member of their parliament just told Americans that if they elect Hillary it will cause a nuclear war. They are NOT OUR FRIENDS in case the above doesn’t clue you in. But knuckling under to them when they are testing us is very liberal of you. It's the kind of thing I'd expect a 70 year old gay hippy to say at a San Fran freedom rally.
China getting involved? Really? Based on what? Their long and glorious tradition of getting involved in foreign wars? China does not get involved in international affairs unless their country’s interests are at stake. They have NO interest in intervening in the middle east. In this case, they have more sense than we do.
I’m not sure how you think that a war (more government/debt spending and more US troops dying) is going to be good for the economy. Isn’t government/debt spending to stimulate the economy a liberal thing?
So fax machines to emails are the most important thing for our economy? OK…
Now realize where I’m coming from. I think that Bill Clinton should have been kicked out of office for lying to America (his boss). And I don’t really think Hillary is any better (hopefully she can get a little oral in oval office too). But Trump is a bad, bad man. He’s spent his entire life looking after himself and trying to destroy anyone who disagrees with him. Sure, he’s a great guy as long as you completely agree with everything he says (which you seem more than willing to do). But realize that this is also a guy who would cheerfully grab your mom or sister or daughter by the pussy (or call her a disgusting pig and slut) and think NOTHING of it. Because he’s Trump and they HAVE to let him do it.
That’s the kind of guy he is and it ABSOLUTELY matters.
its obvious you have never listened to any of vladimar putin's speeches.
russia can be a huge ally on the war on terror.
we have alot of the same enemies.
we (bush, obama, clinton) have decided to use the policy of arming "moderates".
it doesnt work.
we need to auit worrying about a pipeline thru syria and focus on working with russia to recreate a balance of power in the middle east that existed before the bush admin changed that.
obama and hillary would cntinue this chaos due to the steady supply of arms being distributed in the middle east, which makes alot of money for some.
heck some of you with your 401k's may be indirectly supporting this,policy along with the collateral damage of death and injuries to civilians and us military personnel.
turkey is not a strong ally. they are playing both sides of the fence.
id trust putin more than any official diplomat from turkey.
now to china. you obviously dont follow china either. they are deeply involved in the middle east and are considering further involvement due to their financial involvement in the area.
im against war in the middle east.
hell i would bring all troops home tomorrow and tell them to fukk off.
i would focus on spending time working with countries who are interested in trading for our goods and services.
our economy would be much better off focusing on trade versus regime change.
and its obvious you are eithe too you g to understand how business works
or you have never been involved in the business world, no biggie tho.
moving information from point a to point b is the most important advancement in our economy over the last 50 years.
russia can be a huge ally on the war on terror.
we have alot of the same enemies.
we (bush, obama, clinton) have decided to use the policy of arming "moderates".
it doesnt work.
we need to auit worrying about a pipeline thru syria and focus on working with russia to recreate a balance of power in the middle east that existed before the bush admin changed that.
obama and hillary would cntinue this chaos due to the steady supply of arms being distributed in the middle east, which makes alot of money for some.
heck some of you with your 401k's may be indirectly supporting this,policy along with the collateral damage of death and injuries to civilians and us military personnel.
turkey is not a strong ally. they are playing both sides of the fence.
id trust putin more than any official diplomat from turkey.
now to china. you obviously dont follow china either. they are deeply involved in the middle east and are considering further involvement due to their financial involvement in the area.
im against war in the middle east.
hell i would bring all troops home tomorrow and tell them to fukk off.
i would focus on spending time working with countries who are interested in trading for our goods and services.
our economy would be much better off focusing on trade versus regime change.
and its obvious you are eithe too you g to understand how business works
or you have never been involved in the business world, no biggie tho.
moving information from point a to point b is the most important advancement in our economy over the last 50 years.
I've listened to his speeches. I've also watched him score 6 or 7 goals while playing hockey with the Russian national team. I don't think that he's a world class hockey player either. I know what he does... invade other countries and take them over. He shoots down commercial jets and kills Americans. He controls a country that is working really hard to influence our internal affairs and hack our computer systems. Allying with them will not end well for us.
The middle east is a cesspool. It always has been. There’s no balance of power to be had. These folks merrily kill each other and have been for thousands of years… this same kind of shiit was going on here when Egypt was a world power and building pyramids. There have only been temporary ceasefires (usually by someone installing a strongman that scares everyone into playing nice b/c he will do worse. If there is a solution here, they have to figure it out for themselves.
I agree on arming the “moderates”. There’s no one over there that likes us as more than a temporary ally. That includes the Saudis, Kurds, and whoever. If Russia wants to move in and replace us there, they can have at it. We don’t need the middle east anymore. We’ll see how long the Russian economy can take the hits ours has from being over their off and on since 1990 and supporting essentially an expeditionary force half a world away.
Turkey is a NATO ally. They do have problems, but they know what being in NATO means to them. They let us use their bases and always have. Sure we don’t see eye to eye on everything, but they’ve been on our side since 1952 and haven’t waivered in supporting NATO members (again, unlike Trump). They fought beside us in Korea and offered us troops and aid after 911. If you trust Putin more than them, I can only shake my head.
China is financially involved in the middle east b/c they buy a ton of oil there. China has repeatedly rebuffed UN requests to provide peace keepers to that area even though it would have given them a military presence in the area. They aren’t going to do shiit in the middle east but bitch and spend money to buy influence. They take an historical view of the world and know exactly what putting troops into that part of the world mean. They are way too smart for that. WHOEVER is in control will want to sell oil and they will be right there to buy it. They will not get militarily involved under any circumstances b/c they don’t have to.
As for the economy, I took you literally. I would agree that the rise of cheap effective ways to communicate and transfer information has been the biggest driver of the economy. Absolutely and without question.
turkey--
The fledgling “initiatives” reverberating this week in Washington, Moscow, Ankara, Jerusalem and the G20 summit were nothing but distractions from the quiet deals struck by two lead players, Russia and Turkey to seize control of the region’s affairs. Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew nothing would come of his offer on the G20 sidelines to US President Barack Obama to team up for a joint operation to evict ISIS from Raqqa. And, although Moscow was keen on hosting the first handshake in almost a decade between Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), neither were known to be ready for the last step toward a meeting.
But the game-changing events to watch out for took place in Hangzhou without fanfare – namely, the Obama-Putin talks and the far more fruitful encounter between Putin and Erdogan.
According to DEBKAfile’s intelligence and Mid East sources, Putin virtually shut the door on further cooperation with the United States in Syria. He highhandedly informed Obama that he now holds all the high cards for controlling the Syrian conflict, whereas Washington was just about out of the game.
Putin picked up the last cards, our sources disclose, in a secret deal with Erdogan for Russian-Turkish collaboration in charting the next steps in the Middle East. The G20 therefore, instead of promoting new US-Russian understanding, gave the impetus to a new Russian-Turkish partnership.
Erdogan raked in instant winnings: Before he left China, he had pocketed Putin’s nod to grab a nice, 4,000-sq.km slice of northern Syria, as a “security zone” under the control of the Turkish army and air force, with Russian non-interference guaranteed.
This Turkish zone would include the Syrian towns of Jarablus, Manjib, Azaz and Al-Bab.
Ankara would reciprocate by withdrawing its support from the pro-US and pro-Saudi rebel groups fighting the Assad army and its allies in the area north of Aleppo.
Turkey’s concession gave Putin a selling-point to buy the Syrian ruler assent to Erdogan’s project. Ankara’s selling-point to the West was that the planned security zone would provide a safe haven for Syrian refugees and draw off some of the outflow perturbing Europe.
It now turns out that, just as the Americans sold the Syrian Kurds down the river to Turkey (when Vice President Joe Biden last month ordered them to withdraw from their lands to the eastern bank of the Euphrates River or lose US support), so too are the Turks now dropping the Syrian rebels they supported in the mud by re-branding them as “terrorists.”
The head of this NATO nation has moreover gone behind America’s back for a deal with the Russian ruler on how to proceed with the next steps of the Syrian conflict.
Therefore, when US Secretary of State John Kerry met Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Geneva Thursday and Friday, Sept. 8-9, for their sixth and seventh abortive sit-downs on the Syrian issue, there was not much left for them to discuss, aside from continuing to coordinate their air traffic over Syria and the eastern Mediterranean.
Washington and Moscow are alike fearful of an accidental collision in the sky in the current inflammable state of relations between the two powers.
As a gesture of warning, a Russian SU-25 fighter jet Tuesday, Sept 6, intercepted a US Navy P8 plane flying on an international route over the Black Sea. When the Russian jet came as close as 12 feet, the US pilots sent out emergency signals - in vain, because the Russian plane’s transponder was switched off. The American plane ended up changing course.
Amid these anomalies, Moscow pressed ahead with preparations to set up a meeting between the Israeli and Palestinian leaders, as the Russian Foreign Ministry announced Thursday.
Putin is keen to succeed where the Obama administration failed. John Kerry abandoned his last effort at peacemaking as a flop two years ago. But it is hard to see Netanyahu or Abu Mazen rushing to play along with the Russian leader’s plan to demean the US president in the last months of his tenure - especially when no one can tell who will win the November 8 presidential election – Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump – or what policies either will pursue.
All the region’s actors will no doubt be watching closely to see how Turkey’s “Russian track” plays out and how long the inveterate opportunists can hang together.
The fledgling “initiatives” reverberating this week in Washington, Moscow, Ankara, Jerusalem and the G20 summit were nothing but distractions from the quiet deals struck by two lead players, Russia and Turkey to seize control of the region’s affairs. Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew nothing would come of his offer on the G20 sidelines to US President Barack Obama to team up for a joint operation to evict ISIS from Raqqa. And, although Moscow was keen on hosting the first handshake in almost a decade between Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), neither were known to be ready for the last step toward a meeting.
But the game-changing events to watch out for took place in Hangzhou without fanfare – namely, the Obama-Putin talks and the far more fruitful encounter between Putin and Erdogan.
According to DEBKAfile’s intelligence and Mid East sources, Putin virtually shut the door on further cooperation with the United States in Syria. He highhandedly informed Obama that he now holds all the high cards for controlling the Syrian conflict, whereas Washington was just about out of the game.
Putin picked up the last cards, our sources disclose, in a secret deal with Erdogan for Russian-Turkish collaboration in charting the next steps in the Middle East. The G20 therefore, instead of promoting new US-Russian understanding, gave the impetus to a new Russian-Turkish partnership.
Erdogan raked in instant winnings: Before he left China, he had pocketed Putin’s nod to grab a nice, 4,000-sq.km slice of northern Syria, as a “security zone” under the control of the Turkish army and air force, with Russian non-interference guaranteed.
This Turkish zone would include the Syrian towns of Jarablus, Manjib, Azaz and Al-Bab.
Ankara would reciprocate by withdrawing its support from the pro-US and pro-Saudi rebel groups fighting the Assad army and its allies in the area north of Aleppo.
Turkey’s concession gave Putin a selling-point to buy the Syrian ruler assent to Erdogan’s project. Ankara’s selling-point to the West was that the planned security zone would provide a safe haven for Syrian refugees and draw off some of the outflow perturbing Europe.
It now turns out that, just as the Americans sold the Syrian Kurds down the river to Turkey (when Vice President Joe Biden last month ordered them to withdraw from their lands to the eastern bank of the Euphrates River or lose US support), so too are the Turks now dropping the Syrian rebels they supported in the mud by re-branding them as “terrorists.”
The head of this NATO nation has moreover gone behind America’s back for a deal with the Russian ruler on how to proceed with the next steps of the Syrian conflict.
Therefore, when US Secretary of State John Kerry met Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Geneva Thursday and Friday, Sept. 8-9, for their sixth and seventh abortive sit-downs on the Syrian issue, there was not much left for them to discuss, aside from continuing to coordinate their air traffic over Syria and the eastern Mediterranean.
Washington and Moscow are alike fearful of an accidental collision in the sky in the current inflammable state of relations between the two powers.
As a gesture of warning, a Russian SU-25 fighter jet Tuesday, Sept 6, intercepted a US Navy P8 plane flying on an international route over the Black Sea. When the Russian jet came as close as 12 feet, the US pilots sent out emergency signals - in vain, because the Russian plane’s transponder was switched off. The American plane ended up changing course.
Amid these anomalies, Moscow pressed ahead with preparations to set up a meeting between the Israeli and Palestinian leaders, as the Russian Foreign Ministry announced Thursday.
Putin is keen to succeed where the Obama administration failed. John Kerry abandoned his last effort at peacemaking as a flop two years ago. But it is hard to see Netanyahu or Abu Mazen rushing to play along with the Russian leader’s plan to demean the US president in the last months of his tenure - especially when no one can tell who will win the November 8 presidential election – Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump – or what policies either will pursue.
All the region’s actors will no doubt be watching closely to see how Turkey’s “Russian track” plays out and how long the inveterate opportunists can hang together.
The fledgling “initiatives” reverberating this week in Washington, Moscow, Ankara, Jerusalem and the G20 summit were nothing but distractions from the quiet deals struck by two lead players, Russia and Turkey to seize control of the region’s affairs. Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew nothing would come of his offer on the G20 sidelines to US President Barack Obama to team up for a joint operation to evict ISIS from Raqqa. And, although Moscow was keen on hosting the first handshake in almost a decade between Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), neither were known to be ready for the last step toward a meeting.
But the game-changing events to watch out for took place in Hangzhou without fanfare – namely, the Obama-Putin talks and the far more fruitful encounter between Putin and Erdogan.
According to DEBKAfile’s intelligence and Mid East sources, Putin virtually shut the door on further cooperation with the United States in Syria. He highhandedly informed Obama that he now holds all the high cards for controlling the Syrian conflict, whereas Washington was just about out of the game.
Putin picked up the last cards, our sources disclose, in a secret deal with Erdogan for Russian-Turkish collaboration in charting the next steps in the Middle East. The G20 therefore, instead of promoting new US-Russian understanding, gave the impetus to a new Russian-Turkish partnership.
Erdogan raked in instant winnings: Before he left China, he had pocketed Putin’s nod to grab a nice, 4,000-sq.km slice of northern Syria, as a “security zone” under the control of the Turkish army and air force, with Russian non-interference guaranteed.
This Turkish zone would include the Syrian towns of Jarablus, Manjib, Azaz and Al-Bab.
Ankara would reciprocate by withdrawing its support from the pro-US and pro-Saudi rebel groups fighting the Assad army and its allies in the area north of Aleppo.
Turkey’s concession gave Putin a selling-point to buy the Syrian ruler assent to Erdogan’s project. Ankara’s selling-point to the West was that the planned security zone would provide a safe haven for Syrian refugees and draw off some of the outflow perturbing Europe.
It now turns out that, just as the Americans sold the Syrian Kurds down the river to Turkey (when Vice President Joe Biden last month ordered them to withdraw from their lands to the eastern bank of the Euphrates River or lose US support), so too are the Turks now dropping the Syrian rebels they supported in the mud by re-branding them as “terrorists.”
The head of this NATO nation has moreover gone behind America’s back for a deal with the Russian ruler on how to proceed with the next steps of the Syrian conflict.
Therefore, when US Secretary of State John Kerry met Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Geneva Thursday and Friday, Sept. 8-9, for their sixth and seventh abortive sit-downs on the Syrian issue, there was not much left for them to discuss, aside from continuing to coordinate their air traffic over Syria and the eastern Mediterranean.
Washington and Moscow are alike fearful of an accidental collision in the sky in the current inflammable state of relations between the two powers.
As a gesture of warning, a Russian SU-25 fighter jet Tuesday, Sept 6, intercepted a US Navy P8 plane flying on an international route over the Black Sea. When the Russian jet came as close as 12 feet, the US pilots sent out emergency signals - in vain, because the Russian plane’s transponder was switched off. The American plane ended up changing course.
Amid these anomalies, Moscow pressed ahead with preparations to set up a meeting between the Israeli and Palestinian leaders, as the Russian Foreign Ministry announced Thursday.
Putin is keen to succeed where the Obama administration failed. John Kerry abandoned his last effort at peacemaking as a flop two years ago. But it is hard to see Netanyahu or Abu Mazen rushing to play along with the Russian leader’s plan to demean the US president in the last months of his tenure - especially when no one can tell who will win the November 8 presidential election – Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump – or what policies either will pursue.
All the region’s actors will no doubt be watching closely to see how Turkey’s “Russian track” plays out and how long the inveterate opportunists can hang together.
The fledgling “initiatives” reverberating this week in Washington, Moscow, Ankara, Jerusalem and the G20 summit were nothing but distractions from the quiet deals struck by two lead players, Russia and Turkey to seize control of the region’s affairs. Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew nothing would come of his offer on the G20 sidelines to US President Barack Obama to team up for a joint operation to evict ISIS from Raqqa. And, although Moscow was keen on hosting the first handshake in almost a decade between Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), neither were known to be ready for the last step toward a meeting.
But the game-changing events to watch out for took place in Hangzhou without fanfare – namely, the Obama-Putin talks and the far more fruitful encounter between Putin and Erdogan.
According to DEBKAfile’s intelligence and Mid East sources, Putin virtually shut the door on further cooperation with the United States in Syria. He highhandedly informed Obama that he now holds all the high cards for controlling the Syrian conflict, whereas Washington was just about out of the game.
Putin picked up the last cards, our sources disclose, in a secret deal with Erdogan for Russian-Turkish collaboration in charting the next steps in the Middle East. The G20 therefore, instead of promoting new US-Russian understanding, gave the impetus to a new Russian-Turkish partnership.
Erdogan raked in instant winnings: Before he left China, he had pocketed Putin’s nod to grab a nice, 4,000-sq.km slice of northern Syria, as a “security zone” under the control of the Turkish army and air force, with Russian non-interference guaranteed.
This Turkish zone would include the Syrian towns of Jarablus, Manjib, Azaz and Al-Bab.
Ankara would reciprocate by withdrawing its support from the pro-US and pro-Saudi rebel groups fighting the Assad army and its allies in the area north of Aleppo.
Turkey’s concession gave Putin a selling-point to buy the Syrian ruler assent to Erdogan’s project. Ankara’s selling-point to the West was that the planned security zone would provide a safe haven for Syrian refugees and draw off some of the outflow perturbing Europe.
It now turns out that, just as the Americans sold the Syrian Kurds down the river to Turkey (when Vice President Joe Biden last month ordered them to withdraw from their lands to the eastern bank of the Euphrates River or lose US support), so too are the Turks now dropping the Syrian rebels they supported in the mud by re-branding them as “terrorists.”
The head of this NATO nation has moreover gone behind America’s back for a deal with the Russian ruler on how to proceed with the next steps of the Syrian conflict.
Therefore, when US Secretary of State John Kerry met Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Geneva Thursday and Friday, Sept. 8-9, for their sixth and seventh abortive sit-downs on the Syrian issue, there was not much left for them to discuss, aside from continuing to coordinate their air traffic over Syria and the eastern Mediterranean.
Washington and Moscow are alike fearful of an accidental collision in the sky in the current inflammable state of relations between the two powers.
As a gesture of warning, a Russian SU-25 fighter jet Tuesday, Sept 6, intercepted a US Navy P8 plane flying on an international route over the Black Sea. When the Russian jet came as close as 12 feet, the US pilots sent out emergency signals - in vain, because the Russian plane’s transponder was switched off. The American plane ended up changing course.
Amid these anomalies, Moscow pressed ahead with preparations to set up a meeting between the Israeli and Palestinian leaders, as the Russian Foreign Ministry announced Thursday.
Putin is keen to succeed where the Obama administration failed. John Kerry abandoned his last effort at peacemaking as a flop two years ago. But it is hard to see Netanyahu or Abu Mazen rushing to play along with the Russian leader’s plan to demean the US president in the last months of his tenure - especially when no one can tell who will win the November 8 presidential election – Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump – or what policies either will pursue.
All the region’s actors will no doubt be watching closely to see how Turkey’s “Russian track” plays out and how long the inveterate opportunists can hang together.
Via Debka
Photo: Wikimedia Commons
But the game-changing events to watch out for took place in Hangzhou without fanfare – namely, the Obama-Putin talks and the far more fruitful encounter between Putin and Erdogan.
According to DEBKAfile’s intelligence and Mid East sources, Putin virtually shut the door on further cooperation with the United States in Syria. He highhandedly informed Obama that he now holds all the high cards for controlling the Syrian conflict, whereas Washington was just about out of the game.
Putin picked up the last cards, our sources disclose, in a secret deal with Erdogan for Russian-Turkish collaboration in charting the next steps in the Middle East. The G20 therefore, instead of promoting new US-Russian understanding, gave the impetus to a new Russian-Turkish partnership.
Erdogan raked in instant winnings: Before he left China, he had pocketed Putin’s nod to grab a nice, 4,000-sq.km slice of northern Syria, as a “security zone” under the control of the Turkish army and air force, with Russian non-interference guaranteed.
This Turkish zone would include the Syrian towns of Jarablus, Manjib, Azaz and Al-Bab.
Ankara would reciprocate by withdrawing its support from the pro-US and pro-Saudi rebel groups fighting the Assad army and its allies in the area north of Aleppo.
Turkey’s concession gave Putin a selling-point to buy the Syrian ruler assent to Erdogan’s project. Ankara’s selling-point to the West was that the planned security zone would provide a safe haven for Syrian refugees and draw off some of the outflow perturbing Europe.
It now turns out that, just as the Americans sold the Syrian Kurds down the river to Turkey (when Vice President Joe Biden last month ordered them to withdraw from their lands to the eastern bank of the Euphrates River or lose US support), so too are the Turks now dropping the Syrian rebels they supported in the mud by re-branding them as “terrorists.”
The head of this NATO nation has moreover gone behind America’s back for a deal with the Russian ruler on how to proceed with the next steps of the Syrian conflict.
Therefore, when US Secretary of State John Kerry met Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Geneva Thursday and Friday, Sept. 8-9, for their sixth and seventh abortive sit-downs on the Syrian issue, there was not much left for them to discuss, aside from continuing to coordinate their air traffic over Syria and the eastern Mediterranean.
Washington and Moscow are alike fearful of an accidental collision in the sky in the current inflammable state of relations between the two powers.
As a gesture of warning, a Russian SU-25 fighter jet Tuesday, Sept 6, intercepted a US Navy P8 plane flying on an international route over the Black Sea. When the Russian jet came as close as 12 feet, the US pilots sent out emergency signals - in vain, because the Russian plane’s transponder was switched off. The American plane ended up changing course.
Amid these anomalies, Moscow pressed ahead with preparations to set up a meeting between the Israeli and Palestinian leaders, as the Russian Foreign Ministry announced Thursday.
Putin is keen to succeed where the Obama administration failed. John Kerry abandoned his last effort at peacemaking as a flop two years ago. But it is hard to see Netanyahu or Abu Mazen rushing to play along with the Russian leader’s plan to demean the US president in the last months of his tenure - especially when no one can tell who will win the November 8 presidential election – Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump – or what policies either will pursue.
All the region’s actors will no doubt be watching closely to see how Turkey’s “Russian track” plays out and how long the inveterate opportunists can hang together.
Via Debka
Photo: Wikimedia Commons
US President Barack Obama told Pentagon and military chiefs he met Friday, Oct. on Oct. 14, that instead of arming anti-Assad rebel groups in Syria, Washington was going back to negotiations with Moscow for cooperation in achieving a cessation of hostilities in the Syrian war.
US Secretary of State John Kerry therefore scheduled his umpteenth meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov for Saturday in Lausanne. This time, the foreign ministers of Turkey, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and possibly Qatar, tagged along.
Beyond the high words, recriminations and the unspeakable horrors attending the battle for Aleppo, Obama never seriously considered providing the anti-Syrian rebels holed up in Aleppo with the anti-air weapons they need to shoot down the Russian and Syrian warplanes blitzing them – any more than UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson’s statement that it was time for British military involvement in the Syrian war was for real
Above all, Britain is short of the military heft for backing up hypothetical intentions.
The options for serious Western intervention in the Syrian war are constantly diminishing for the reasons outlined here by debkafile’s military sources:
1. American missiles have no way of reaching Syrian rebel groups, certainly not those still fighting in eastern Aleppo. Neither Russia, nor Turkey, whose army now controls 5,000 sq. km of northern Syria, would let them through to that destination.
2. Had Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan chosen to do so, he could have simply ordered his army to open up a route for the supply of missiles to the rebels who are hemmed in in Aleppo by Russia, Syrian, Iranian and Hizballah forces. He is withholding that order because the military deals he concluded with President Vladimir Putin last week in Istanbul override any concerns he may have for the fate of those rebels or Aleppo’s population.
3. Those deals in a word sanctify the Turkish “security zone” in northern Syria which is covered by a no-fly zone for all but Russian and Turkish flights. They also provide for the Syrian rebels retreating from the various Syrian war zones, including Aleppo, to be taken in and absorbed in the Turkish enclave. Erdogan would thus become the senior patron of the Syrian opposition rebel movement, barring only the Al-Qaeda-affiliated Nusra Front and other Islamic extremist groups. This would enable him to steal from the United States, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Qatar their sponsorship roles and their influence in the anti-Assad movement.
4. Ankara’s military alliance with Moscow is steadily eroding Turkey’s ties with the United States as well as NATO. Matters have gone so far that the two capitals or in advanced discussion of the supply of Russian air defense missiles to the Turkish army.
debkafile’s intelligence sources reveal that under discussion is the installation in Turkey of a system of advanced Russian missiles linked to the Russian anti-air missile shield under construction in Syria.
Turkey would thus become the first member of NATO to arm itself with a Russian anti-air missile shield.
How was this allowed to happen?
According to our sources, Putin and Erdogan are moving fast to cash in on President Obama’s repugnance for military intervention in Syria and his waning powers at the tail end of his presidency.
Furthermore –
a) Neither is configuring Syrian President Bashar Assad into their calculations. They are going forward with their plans while ignoring him and his drastically diminished army as factors worth consideration.
b) Their objectives are similar and interlocking: Both are intent on developing their respective enclaves in northern Syria, Moscow for a long-term military presence in the country: likewise, Ankara.
Up until now, the Obama administration stood firm against the two goals, which is why Washington and Moscow were unable to achieve any real cooperation over a secession of hostilities in the war-torn country; even when Kerry and Lavrov struck a truce accord on Sept 9, it never held up beyond a few hours.
Most recently, Putin and Erdogan tried signaling the US president that their sole ambitions with regard to Syria’s future lie in the two military enclaves now under construction.
Obama saw this as a sufficient basis to continue withholding advanced arms from Syrian rebel groups and to go for another round of diplomacy with Russia – with Turkey hitching a ride this time on the opposite side of the table..
US Secretary of State John Kerry therefore scheduled his umpteenth meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov for Saturday in Lausanne. This time, the foreign ministers of Turkey, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and possibly Qatar, tagged along.
Beyond the high words, recriminations and the unspeakable horrors attending the battle for Aleppo, Obama never seriously considered providing the anti-Syrian rebels holed up in Aleppo with the anti-air weapons they need to shoot down the Russian and Syrian warplanes blitzing them – any more than UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson’s statement that it was time for British military involvement in the Syrian war was for real
Above all, Britain is short of the military heft for backing up hypothetical intentions.
The options for serious Western intervention in the Syrian war are constantly diminishing for the reasons outlined here by debkafile’s military sources:
1. American missiles have no way of reaching Syrian rebel groups, certainly not those still fighting in eastern Aleppo. Neither Russia, nor Turkey, whose army now controls 5,000 sq. km of northern Syria, would let them through to that destination.
2. Had Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan chosen to do so, he could have simply ordered his army to open up a route for the supply of missiles to the rebels who are hemmed in in Aleppo by Russia, Syrian, Iranian and Hizballah forces. He is withholding that order because the military deals he concluded with President Vladimir Putin last week in Istanbul override any concerns he may have for the fate of those rebels or Aleppo’s population.
3. Those deals in a word sanctify the Turkish “security zone” in northern Syria which is covered by a no-fly zone for all but Russian and Turkish flights. They also provide for the Syrian rebels retreating from the various Syrian war zones, including Aleppo, to be taken in and absorbed in the Turkish enclave. Erdogan would thus become the senior patron of the Syrian opposition rebel movement, barring only the Al-Qaeda-affiliated Nusra Front and other Islamic extremist groups. This would enable him to steal from the United States, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Qatar their sponsorship roles and their influence in the anti-Assad movement.
4. Ankara’s military alliance with Moscow is steadily eroding Turkey’s ties with the United States as well as NATO. Matters have gone so far that the two capitals or in advanced discussion of the supply of Russian air defense missiles to the Turkish army.
debkafile’s intelligence sources reveal that under discussion is the installation in Turkey of a system of advanced Russian missiles linked to the Russian anti-air missile shield under construction in Syria.
Turkey would thus become the first member of NATO to arm itself with a Russian anti-air missile shield.
How was this allowed to happen?
According to our sources, Putin and Erdogan are moving fast to cash in on President Obama’s repugnance for military intervention in Syria and his waning powers at the tail end of his presidency.
Furthermore –
a) Neither is configuring Syrian President Bashar Assad into their calculations. They are going forward with their plans while ignoring him and his drastically diminished army as factors worth consideration.
b) Their objectives are similar and interlocking: Both are intent on developing their respective enclaves in northern Syria, Moscow for a long-term military presence in the country: likewise, Ankara.
Up until now, the Obama administration stood firm against the two goals, which is why Washington and Moscow were unable to achieve any real cooperation over a secession of hostilities in the war-torn country; even when Kerry and Lavrov struck a truce accord on Sept 9, it never held up beyond a few hours.
Most recently, Putin and Erdogan tried signaling the US president that their sole ambitions with regard to Syria’s future lie in the two military enclaves now under construction.
Obama saw this as a sufficient basis to continue withholding advanced arms from Syrian rebel groups and to go for another round of diplomacy with Russia – with Turkey hitching a ride this time on the opposite side of the table..
its really in the justice dept hands with loretta lynch.
how in the world she was allowed to meet with clinton on the tarmac isnt a big deal is beyond me.
the attorney general should be elected not appointed.
trump should have asked hillary to be his legal counsel with the groping allegations last nite.
he should have stated "ms. clinton, you were a wizard in getting bill out of all those rapings.
bet groping would be easy.
and if anyone who is disgusted by trump but voted for bill is a hypocrite.
