OT - Elevation Church haters
- Thread starter firegiver
- Start date
The most interesting video is the one I have linked. I am a Christian, and I believe the bible teaches us to support our pastor and oiur church financially to do God's work, but I have a hard time reconciling this Pastor Furtick and his $1.7 million home and who knows how big of a salary with how Jesus lived and taught. And yes, the money he makes off of his books is part of his pastoral salary IMO because they are promoted and facilitated through his position with the church. If his books were on auto-restoration, or stocks, or anything non-religious that would be different.
To me, this Pastor needs to read the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple. This pastor, and others like him, are no different than the money changers in the temple. They are using the church to profit for themselves.
Charlotte NBC expose on Pastor Furtick
To me, this Pastor needs to read the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple. This pastor, and others like him, are no different than the money changers in the temple. They are using the church to profit for themselves.
Charlotte NBC expose on Pastor Furtick
Everyone has brought up good points/debates in this thread. It's really how one interprets the word "Tithe" and it's meaning of 10% and it's reference through out both the OT and NT in the Bible such as Leviticus 27:30, Proverbs 3:9-10, Malachi 3:6-10, Matthew 6:19-24, I Corinthians 16:1-2.
Again, it's how one interprets and decides how they want to serve the Lord.
I don't think I would attend the Elevation Church as I wasn't impressed in hearing Furtick on previous Sermons. Just didn't seem genuine to me.
The day that the NewSpring Pastor's or employees start driving around expensive cars, building mansions, living a lavish lifestyle, it's time for this one to move on. But for people to say corruption only happens at these Mega Churches is full of Baloney. It can happen anywhere-anytime Money is involved. Even the smallest of Churches have the same issue.
NewSpring does a pretty good job of providing detailed Expenditures for each fiscal year and controls in place.
Again, it's how one interprets and decides how they want to serve the Lord.
I don't think I would attend the Elevation Church as I wasn't impressed in hearing Furtick on previous Sermons. Just didn't seem genuine to me.
The day that the NewSpring Pastor's or employees start driving around expensive cars, building mansions, living a lavish lifestyle, it's time for this one to move on. But for people to say corruption only happens at these Mega Churches is full of Baloney. It can happen anywhere-anytime Money is involved. Even the smallest of Churches have the same issue.
NewSpring does a pretty good job of providing detailed Expenditures for each fiscal year and controls in place.
Trading Tiger says:
"In Jesus's day, it was the Pharisees saying "this is the way we do things, either get with the program or GTFO!"
Very interesting paraphrase of Jesus' words.
"Now, mega-churches, they're pastors, and their owners/members/attendees
are the ones who are being persecuted by the "normal churches" because
things are changing and they don't like it."
So mega-churches, their pastors and members are being PERSECUTED by "normal churches?" And we are who members/staff of "normal churches" are doing this b/c we don't like the way things are changing?
I don't think you can even use the word "persecuted" by anyone who attends a mega-church. I pray that you aren't using the derision that some people give you or your mega church as some indication that you are going to inherit the kingdom of heaven because you are persecuted! (Matthew 5:10) You have no idea what persecution means.
"Normal churches" see what mega churches are doing and simply don't agree that the model that they employ is the best example of the New Testament church. You want to tell the pastor his sermon changed your life? You cant even make an appointment to talk to these guys! You want the pastor to come and pray with you before your life-altering surgery, no way that's happening! You want to know the people you worship with every Sunday? Good luck with that! If you want to be anonymous in a mega church you can do it all day long. If you want community across all age groups and peoples? "normal churches" is where you will find that.
Please don't try to use your pop-church culture knowledge of church life to make sweeping statements about how great mega-churches are and how insignificant "normal churches" are, because we don't like the way things are changing. I don't know what they teach at your meg-church but at my "normal church" we still teach that we are all the universal body of Christ.
"In Jesus's day, it was the Pharisees saying "this is the way we do things, either get with the program or GTFO!"
Very interesting paraphrase of Jesus' words.
"Now, mega-churches, they're pastors, and their owners/members/attendees
are the ones who are being persecuted by the "normal churches" because
things are changing and they don't like it."
So mega-churches, their pastors and members are being PERSECUTED by "normal churches?" And we are who members/staff of "normal churches" are doing this b/c we don't like the way things are changing?
I don't think you can even use the word "persecuted" by anyone who attends a mega-church. I pray that you aren't using the derision that some people give you or your mega church as some indication that you are going to inherit the kingdom of heaven because you are persecuted! (Matthew 5:10) You have no idea what persecution means.
"Normal churches" see what mega churches are doing and simply don't agree that the model that they employ is the best example of the New Testament church. You want to tell the pastor his sermon changed your life? You cant even make an appointment to talk to these guys! You want the pastor to come and pray with you before your life-altering surgery, no way that's happening! You want to know the people you worship with every Sunday? Good luck with that! If you want to be anonymous in a mega church you can do it all day long. If you want community across all age groups and peoples? "normal churches" is where you will find that.
Please don't try to use your pop-church culture knowledge of church life to make sweeping statements about how great mega-churches are and how insignificant "normal churches" are, because we don't like the way things are changing. I don't know what they teach at your meg-church but at my "normal church" we still teach that we are all the universal body of Christ.
Yes, I am a member of NewSpring. I see where much of my hard earned money goes everytime I go to church. I see the multiple campuses, the service that the band and video guys put on everyweek, the resources put out for visitors, the production that goes into teaching thousands of kids each week about Jesus, the summer beach trip each year for the youth, the shoes for the local school kids, the money/partnership to help others plant churches in places like Israel, Estonia, Kenya, UK.
NewSpring puts out a financial book ever year that shows the churches income and where that money is spent. Sorry, but I don't carry this around in my back pocket. I do not recall it showing exactly how much the preacher or every member on staff makes. They do list how much money as a whole goes to staffing, but no what Joe Smith at the Greenville campus is making individually.
I understand your concern for my money. People are evil and greedy, I certainly understand that. You should have an idea where your money goes. I believe I have a good idea. This is my church. If I felt compelled to check every balance sheet and critique the spending of every dime, then I think that right there would tell me I need to find another church.
If you can't have some trust and faith in your own church to do what is right with your money, then why would you attend that church? I agree in wanting to know, and asking questions, but at some point you have to trust the leaders, or else why would you be giving them your money in the first place.
Do you know exactly how much your preacher makes, your assoc. pastor, your music director? Do you know what they spend their salary on? How do you decide for yourself if your church is spending too much in one area and not enough in another? Do you voice these concerns with your church leadership?
Yes we know where everything goes and how much every staff person makes. That's called transparency. Every church that receives donations is entitled to see it if he/she wishes. No big deal will be made if you make that request.
Any church/organization asking for your money should be just as forthright with their financial info. No ifs, and or buts.
Any church/organization asking for your money should be just as forthright with their financial info. No ifs, and or buts.
Anyone who gives 10% of what they make to one of these mega churches needs to get their head checked.
Yuthgi, this post isn't all directed at you, I know you are responding to another post.
I have never understood why people want to degrade another person's church based on the number of members.
All churches have their place, because we as humans are all different. We all prefer to worship in a certain type of building with a certain type of music, and certain type of preaching style. No one can say one is better than the other. Why would they even want to try? We are all worshippers of Jesus. Look at what we have in common, not what we differ about.
I go to a large church, and I grew up in a small church. I have no preference for one or the other. I only ended up at a large one because I like the worship/preaching/fellowship better at this specific church, and it happens to be large. If it happened to be a small church with the same ingredients, then I would have ended up there.
There are just as many crooked Pastors/Deacons at both large and small churches. You only need to look in the news to see that. Adultery and stealing don't have a perference for church size.
You can be as involved as you want at a large or small church. Both places need members to give their time for the better of the cause. You can meet as many people as you want at a large or small church. It is up to you.
Give 10% to a church and people want strict accountability, transparency, fiscal responsibility, and ethical stewardship.
Give 25% to the government and not a peep.
For those who find hope and comfort in their government (liberals) please explain.
Give 25% to the government and not a peep.
For those who find hope and comfort in their government (liberals) please explain.
1. Yes. To the penny.
2. No and I don't care. They aren't building multimillion dollar homes. They live rather modestly. And because I know the answer to number 1 there is no appearance of impropriety.
This post was edited on 4/28 3:32 PM by chapintiger
I give 10% because I believe God has given me everything I have and giving back 10% is the least I can do in return for all the blessings he has given me. Not the least of which is his Son and my Savior, Jesus. The amount of good my church does in our community and around the world is truly astonishing and I'm honored to be a part of it. My pastor has never "demanded" that anyone give 10%.
2 Corinthians 9:7[/B] - Each one must do[/I] just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver..
2 Corinthians 9:7[/B] - Each one must do[/I] just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver..
Wow that's a great investigative piece in that link. I can't help but wonder if WYFF did one on ole Perry, the guy might be on the bottom of Hartwell lake before it was aired.
In the link, it spoke of these mega-churches buying up property that would otherwise be bought by a tax paying company. Instead, more of a burden will be placed on John Q Taxpayer to make up the difference. And people here wonder why myself and others are concerned?! We're getting screw and not even stepping foot in there!
Great response. Which campus do you attend? We go to the Greenville campus and also serve. I'd love to meet you some time.
I just wonder if maybe we should have reevaluated the % over the last several thousand years due to a few changes along the way. I certainly get donating an amount or a percentage, but 10% seems excessive. If an average Clemson couple takes home $60K each, that's a $12,000 donation to the church. For a church of 5K families, that's $60 million a year if it's a college educated demographic and they all tithe.
The church often was the community back in the day. Times were simpler, people paid their tithe in crops or spices or goats. Communities shared goods and services. I'm not sure the tithe translated accurately into today's financial structure.
Then again, maybe I'm just greedy. And giving to the government really stings, because that's wayyy more than a tithe and much more wasteful.
I know it will be completely impossible for some to agree here but that's ok, to each his own.
I am only speaking to Christians here, not non-Christian. I'm not sure how anyone could expect a non-Christian to connect in something they don't believe in and that is completely up to them from my perspective. Have nothing but love for anyone, Christian or not.
I am an owner of NewSpring church.
I couldn't care less what Perry Noble, etc do with my tithe. That's between them and God. What I see is more owners, the good news of Jesus Christ preached, baptisms, salvations, home groups, lives changed, etc. Jesus Christ had used NewSpring church for DRAMATIC transformation in my life and my family's.
Has the leadership of NS made poor decisions, oh absolutely.
When I start to believe that NS isn't making the difference in people's lives that I see now and/or the name of Jesus Christ and His gospel isn't proclaimed, maybe I'll change my mind.
Until then, I couldn't care less what Perry Noble and his team do. Not my place to judge.
I give primarily bc it helps me to trust God w my finances. God doesn't need our money.
And yes I certainly realize, and actually agree, that NS should deter from preaching tithing so much....and I actually believe they have....but I've had personal issues w almost every church I've ever attended, I'll NEVER agree w everything my church does or what any other church does, that's the nature of them being operated by human beings.
Overall, proof is in the pudding for me.
This post was edited on 4/28 4:04 PM by clemsonu0219
I am only speaking to Christians here, not non-Christian. I'm not sure how anyone could expect a non-Christian to connect in something they don't believe in and that is completely up to them from my perspective. Have nothing but love for anyone, Christian or not.
I am an owner of NewSpring church.
I couldn't care less what Perry Noble, etc do with my tithe. That's between them and God. What I see is more owners, the good news of Jesus Christ preached, baptisms, salvations, home groups, lives changed, etc. Jesus Christ had used NewSpring church for DRAMATIC transformation in my life and my family's.
Has the leadership of NS made poor decisions, oh absolutely.
When I start to believe that NS isn't making the difference in people's lives that I see now and/or the name of Jesus Christ and His gospel isn't proclaimed, maybe I'll change my mind.
Until then, I couldn't care less what Perry Noble and his team do. Not my place to judge.
I give primarily bc it helps me to trust God w my finances. God doesn't need our money.
And yes I certainly realize, and actually agree, that NS should deter from preaching tithing so much....and I actually believe they have....but I've had personal issues w almost every church I've ever attended, I'll NEVER agree w everything my church does or what any other church does, that's the nature of them being operated by human beings.
Overall, proof is in the pudding for me.
This post was edited on 4/28 4:04 PM by clemsonu0219
Giving 10% of your income to a tithe and not expecting transparency is not Biblical, it's ignorant. I believe in tithing for many of the above listed reasons, but the rock star lifestyles many of these pastors live (funded by those that tithe) is more than concerning.
Believers should be giving to their local church body for the purpose of caring for the needy, outreach ministries (spreading gospel), and helping pay the living costs of pastors.
Personally, I do not need to know the details of every dime spent as long as the church's spending practices reflect that outreach is valued over lavish upkeep, and my pastor's lifestyle reflects those same values.
Believers should be giving to their local church body for the purpose of caring for the needy, outreach ministries (spreading gospel), and helping pay the living costs of pastors.
Personally, I do not need to know the details of every dime spent as long as the church's spending practices reflect that outreach is valued over lavish upkeep, and my pastor's lifestyle reflects those same values.
First of all, I would not attend the church once it grew over 1000 people or so, but that's neither here nor there.
I'm not saying I would stop giving, but I certainly wouldn't give 10% of my income while listening to Perry Noble blither on like an idiot about how everyone who questions tithing 10% is "stupid."
My 10% shouldn't be going towards building extravegant houses for the preacher and making folks that work in the church administration rich. Also, I don't respect any preacher that refuses to preside over weddings and funerals for people in his/her congregation. Besides helping people grow in Christ, that's what preachers exist for. They are supposed to help bless families and help get them through tough times. I want a one on one relationship with my preacher. I want my preacher to baptize my son/daughter.
That's why I'm not giving 10% to a mega church. Perry Noble, Furtick, and others like them absolutely disgust me and are not men of God IMO.
The answer to your question about salaries in the church is yes. Those salaries as well as the overall annual budget is voted on by the church members and not kept secret. Big expenditures are brought before the church for a vote. I'm not judging you and your church for how you do things, just answering your question.
I personally believe the church tithes and offerings are God's money and are given for God's work and believe we are expected to be caretakers of that money and make sure it is safe and used appropriately. At churches that take in a lot of money, a lot of great things can be done by the church and still you could have someone fleecing God's money for personal gain. How.do you prevent that?
I linked a video above that was done by NBC in Charlotte. Their congregation has no idea what their pastor makes. They have no say in his salary. He has set up a "Board of Overseeers" to set his salary and parsonage fee. That Board consists of other mega church pastors who have similar boards driving their salaries. Interestingly, Perry Noble is on the Board of Overseeers at Elevation and he sets their pastors salary which is evidently exhorbinant. His parsonage allowance alone must be several hundred thousand.
Im not passing judgment on your church. I know it does good things. Just curious if you have an idea of Noble's salary or parsonage fee. What do you think about it? How much is too much for you? Again, just curious. Personally, I dont think pastors are CEOs and shouldnt be salaried that way. We should take care of them, but there is a point at which a pastor can become a temple money changer instead of a pastor. The pastor from Elevation and his profiteering from his book sales due to his position in the church, not to mention his huge salary and parsonage fee, seems to fit the definition of a money changer to me.
person close to me used to work at a "mega church" in greenville and she left... she said that the overhead needed to run the church was out of control to a point where you wanted to puke... she worked there full time and got fed up with how carefree folks were about using church funds to buy whatever without any sort of approval (for example: she claims that it was no big deal at all to just go out and by a top notch state of the art camera without any approval at all)
This post was edited on 4/28 4:16 PM by Keith52
This post was edited on 4/28 4:16 PM by Keith52
Is this true? You would leave your church, the place your kid was baptized, the place you may have found Jesus, all because it grew to over 1000 people? I don't understand.
Once a church reaches a certain size there is no way for the pastor to do it all. Even in small churches the pastors is often times asked to do more than they can truly handle. I have no problem with wanting your pastor to baptize your kids. Personally, it is not a big deal as to who baptizes my kid as it is the reason they are getting baptized.
I have met Perry Noble maybe once outside the service. If he saw me on the street, he wouldn't know me. I am fine with that. I don't care. I enjoy the message he brings. I don't hold him up on a pedestal. He isn't anymore important to me than the pastor at my local campus, the lady the directs the kids area each Sunday, or the leader of worship at my local campus. If I am in the hospital I want to see my family and friends. They mean more to me than anyone else, and their prayers are just as pleasing to God.
Nothing wrong with wanting your preacher to come visit. Just a difference of opinion.
tithe like jesus
u get more bang for your buck if u look around your community to help the needy
food pantries, goodwills, meals on wheels
your 10% would go so much further if u bypassed giving it to the churches
u get more bang for your buck if u look around your community to help the needy
food pantries, goodwills, meals on wheels
your 10% would go so much further if u bypassed giving it to the churches
I've said it before and people either misunderstood me or they just didn't understand what I was saying, I don't know which, but I'll say it again, if every Christian tithed, there would be no such thing as hunger in the world and most, if not all, of the government assistance programs could go away. Notice that I said "if every Christian tithed", not everyone period or even everyone who went to Church, but just every Christian.
With that in mind, no, I don't think that the % should have been adjusted over time or to account for changes in the financial structure of the day. I believe that concepts in the Bible can be applied just as easily, if not more so, to modern living as they were in ancient times.
Does the average Clemson grad really bring in $60K a year? If so, I really need to step it up. Although, in my current situation, my income is just a supplement to what my wife brings home. I don't have the pressure to be the breadwinner on my shoulders and therefore my priorities in a job are a little different. I'm looking for job security and a job I like, not the job that will pay me the most money. I've turned down a few jobs over the last several years that would have increased my wages much closer to $60K.
I certainly understand what you're trying to illustrate with your example, but that's a vast oversimplification, "vast oversimplification" is an understatement. Just to make it a tiny bit more realistic, let's say that out of those 5K families that attend Church X, 33% of them are of retirement age. That $120K a year salary assumption just dropped down a lot. Taking it one step further, but really not too big of a leap is to say that of that remaining 67% of working families, only 50% tithe, and that's a very aggressive figure, the truth is closer to 10% which I've stated in several other posts. That brings the total tithe down to just over $20,000,000 ($4,000,000 @ 10%).
Wow. You are so wrong in so many ways that I don't know how to address this ridiculous post. But I'll give it a shot...
If you are a Christian, then you should be ashamed of the bolded comment. Who are you to question their faith, especially since they are leading churches that are bringing 1,000s of people to Christ? I don't know Furtick or listen to his sermons, but I do know my pastor and know that he is absolutely, 100% a Christian. You may not like his stance on tithing (although it's also 100% biblically correct), his verbiage or delivery technique used during his sermons (have you even listened to a full sermon?), or the fact that he makes a good living doing the most important, eternally valuable thing you can on this planet, but you are a disgrace for a "Christian" if you truly believe what you just wrote about him not being a "man of God."
And a preacher does not exist to preside over your wedding and funeral and to help you grow with Christ. I seriously cannot stop shaking my head at the idiotic remarks in your post. A pastor's job is to preach the gospel and bring people to Christ, just as it is your job as a Christian (assuming you are a Christian). No different. Just because he is a pastor of a church as his profession and gets paid to preach the gospel does not mean that his job isn't to marry you or preach at your funeral. What an incredibly dumb and selfish statement. You should learn from a pastor's messages, but it is your job to spend time daily reading your Bible, praying, and going deeper with your relationship with Christ. That is not a pastor's job, nor can he do that for you. Good grief.
This post was edited on 4/28 5:14 PM by Mr. Clemson
OK, maybe that analogy was a bit of an exaggeration, but with all of the undue criticism that, collectively speaking, comes our way, it's really not.
And my goodness, after every post I make I promise not to post again in these threads and I just can't help myself...
Normal churches should look at the number of people that they have lost, cast out, or never let in compared to those numbers at mega-churches. Mega-churches look at the model of normal churches and simply don't agree that they are employing the best example of the New Testament. So who is right? How about both? As long as people souls are being saved, does it matter what style church they prefer?
How well do you know your pastor at your normal church? I grew up going to two different normal churches. One in Mt. Pleasant where I lived and one in Aiken where my Grandparents live and I spent a lot of time there. I know the Aiken pastor way better than I know the pastor of my church in Mt. Pleasant or Newspring. The Aiken pastor officiated my wedding, that was before I even lived in Anderson and started going to Newspring so save the "a ha!" moment.
Why would I need my pastor to come pray for me? I have my wife and no less than 14 of my closest friends who would be more than happy to do that.
Why would I need to tell the pastor that his sermon changed my life? So he can get a big head and think how great he is? No, I have those same people mentioned above to talk about that stuff with. Even better, I can show my wife, my friends, and complete strangers how my life has been changed not with my words, but with my actions.
I know the people I worship with on Sunday, again, it's my wife and my 14 closest friends. Do I know everyone in the church, certainly not, not even close, do you know everyone in your church? I highly doubt it and I would ask, why would that possibly matter?
Again, I grew up going to two traditional churches, and now I go to Newspring. I don't really like one more than another. I like them all in different ways for different reasons. It's not I that has a problem with mega-churches, or normal churches, it seems to be the people who are members of, or attend, regular churches that have a problem with mega-churches.
lmao at the new living translation. I see what they did there. You see, this is the problem with taking the Bible or its "translations" literally.
Re: tithe like jesus
So you want me to give my money to this Goodwill below? All organizations run by humans are going to screw up somewhere or another. Most churches are run pretty well and have good people looking after the funds. Unfortunately it's the big ones that are bringing in the mega bucks that usually show up in the news. Furtick does seem to come off as a pretty big tool though. My pastor drives an old beat up honda and got his house as a foreclosure. He could probably afford to buy more, but he doesn't, and I love him for it.
Goodwill
So you want me to give my money to this Goodwill below? All organizations run by humans are going to screw up somewhere or another. Most churches are run pretty well and have good people looking after the funds. Unfortunately it's the big ones that are bringing in the mega bucks that usually show up in the news. Furtick does seem to come off as a pretty big tool though. My pastor drives an old beat up honda and got his house as a foreclosure. He could probably afford to buy more, but he doesn't, and I love him for it.
Goodwill
If you think a pastor's only job is preaching the word you are so far detached from reality I don't know if anyone can help you. A pastor is there to meet your spiritual needs. He is there to provide comfort for you and your family. He is there to provide guidance. Getting married and making a covenant with God is a big deal. Probably the biggest decision outside of salvation you will ever make. If you don't think it is his job to guide you on that day and the days leading up to it I don't know what to say. If he can't take an hour out of his day to preside over your funeral and offer some heart felt comfort to your family I don't know what to say. If a pastors example is Christ (and it should be) a pastor should be ashamed not to visit his flock while in the hospital or being humble enough to baptize people. What a crock of crap.
To expound a little further, do you think a pastor should be consumed with managing a staff/running the day to day operations of a church instead of ministering to his flock? A lot of these mega church pastors are more concerned with running the business as opposed to being accessible to their members. There is a job called "church administrator" for large churches so the pastor is not bogged down with these type of things. This should free up his time to be there for members when they are at their lowest points.
This post was edited on 4/28 8:46 PM by Tigerbomb
1. LOL at the bolded passage. You've really bought into Perry's Old Testament Tithing rap. He's got you hook line and sinker. Folks also sacrificed their children in the old Testament.....are you doing that too? And before you tell me that tithing 10% is in the New Testament I can go ahead and tell you that every passage I've ever read in the NT that people claim proves it's law to tithe 10% is beyond a reach. I can't wait to read the NT scripture that you cite that actually makes no reference to tithing 10%, but since Perry said it in his sermon I'm sure it must be true.
2. Question my Christianity all you want, but I know who I am. How can you possibly think it's idiotic to expect my preacher to baptize my child or marry my children or pray with my family when one of our own is on their deathbed? That's what preachers are supposed to do. In your world it sounds like you think a preacher works one day a week, gives a sermon and then his job is done. If you really believe that a preacher's ONLY job is to it to preach the Gospel and bring people to Christ then you are the idiot here. Sure, that's a preacher's #1 job, but a real man of God who cares about his congregation does so much more than that.
I really pity you Newspringers. God bless you.
Scotch,
I would ask you to consider if you view it as "your money" or as the Bible teaches, you are being a good steward with what God has entrusted you with Matt 25:14-30. You also need to look even beyond your town. My church supports local missions, but we are also support missionary's that have gone to places in the world that have nothing. We are also supporting medical clinics in some of those areas providing the only Dr's in the area. I am not perfect in anyway, but do feel I should be giving more than dropping a $20 in the plate. I don't want to be consumed with the things of this world and pray that I am willing and able to give. Look up the book "The hole in our Gospel" and it will really make you re-examine some of your beliefs and if they are really supported Biblically. Thankfully my wife and I are committed to tithe and don't feel that we are missing it
