Why do some Republicans hate Zelenskyy?

[LaniKaiTiger]

Everyone is so hyper focused on Crimea they fail to understand this started well before Russia invaded in 2014. The advance of NATO to Russia's borders and the threat of the Ukraine becoming part of the European Union is had a huge helping hand in kicking off the tension. It was Russia that suggested a tri-party arrangement to allow Russia to remain as an equal trade partner and the European Union wanted to cut Russia out when the Ukraine was largely dependent on Russia for economic solvency up that point. Before 2013, almost 4 million Ukrainians worked in Russia and were allowed to send money back to the Ukraine to support their families. Seems like an awful lot of goodwill got eroded quite quickly with little reasoning as to why. Pressure from the US who was investing billions to insert democracy?

Now ask yourself why an overly liberal US govt would forcefully install a far right Ukranian govt that was anti Russia in the Ukraine in 2014? Why would they do that if there were any intentions to find some diplomacy and somehow agree to a model where Ukraine, the EU, Crimea and Russia could exist cohesively?

Russia certainly isn't innocent here, not by a country mile but you can't get to the root of the problem until you actually review the history and admit the US, the EU and the Ukraine made huge missteps here.

Look up Steven F Cohen on YouTube, very well respected expert on Russia, Ukraine, etc with a different perspective.

The party most responsible for NATO's expansion is Russia. It's an alliance aimed to counteract Russian belligerence, with good reason.

"Forcefully install" is a plainly laughable description of what occurred. Russia would have never allowed Ukraine to pivot to the West. So if by cohesively exist you mean Ukraine exists as a rump state along the lines of Belarus, sure, Russia would gladly take it.

Our mistake is not acting forcibly enough. Playing diplomacy with bad faith actors is idiotic

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

We are......we've been helping them start the conflict since 2014, right after we helped replace the government. I Will never understand anyone that lobbies for war that isn't willing to go fight in one. War is a horrible thing, you don't ever really come back from it.

Note that Ukraine started shelling Donbas 9 days before Russia invaded. Why would they do that while begging the world for help before Russia invaded?

OSCE Reports Reveal Ukraine Started Shelling The Donbas Nine Days Before Russia's 'Special Military Operation'

The Biden Administration, U.S. political officials, and the corporate media are lying the American public into World War III.

kanekoa.substack.com

What? We helped them start the conflict after DPR goons briefly seized Sloviansk in April?

The present war was thrust upon Ukraine by Putin. Disincentive war by supporting the victim against its aggressor and dealing him a hard blow.

Shocker, Ukraine shells enemies who are preparing to invade it.

 

[TigerGrowls]

What? We helped them start the conflict after DPR goons briefly seized Sloviansk in April?

The present war was thrust upon Ukraine by Putin. Disincentive war by supporting the victim against its aggressor and dealing him a hard blow.

Shocker, Ukraine shells enemies who are preparing to invade it.

The report states Ukraine was shelling its own territory and citizens.

 

[jakefest]

What? We helped them start the conflict after DPR goons briefly seized Sloviansk in April?

The present war was thrust upon Ukraine by Putin. Disincentive war by supporting the victim against its aggressor and dealing him a hard blow.

Shocker, Ukraine shells enemies who are preparing to invade it.

Listen to this from 2 years ago, pre-conflict and tell me if your views don't change on the current war and our involvement.



And don't forget, Bush promised not to expand NATO eastward in return for United Germany. It was never codified into law but we broke our word to them. Details below:

How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion | NATO Watch

natowatch.org

This is from 7 years ago, no hindsight here, it tells you what was going to happen if we continued to expand NATO and the EU to their borders.



and now with hindsight (view doesn't change)

 

[jakefest]

Lolz

 

[jakefest]

Written in 2019 and carried out in 2022........goodness, play by play more or less.

Nonviolent Ways the United States Could Exploit Russian Vulnerabilities

Despite its vulnerabilities and anxieties, Russia remains a formidable opponent in a few key domains. What non-violent, cost-imposing measures could the United States pursue to stress Russia's economy, its military, and the regime's political standing at home and abroad?

www.rand.org

 

[TigerGrowls]

Written in 2019 and carried out in 2022........goodness, play by play more or less.

Nonviolent Ways the United States Could Exploit Russian Vulnerabilities

Despite its vulnerabilities and anxieties, Russia remains a formidable opponent in a few key domains. What non-violent, cost-imposing measures could the United States pursue to stress Russia's economy, its military, and the regime's political standing at home and abroad?

www.rand.org

@jakefest doing an incredible job of laying out the reality of what is occurring. Thank you sir!!

 

[WapPride]

And don't forget, Bush promised not to expand NATO eastward in return for United Germany. It was never codified into law but we broke our word to them. Details below:

How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion | NATO Watch

natowatch.org

This is from 7 years ago, no hindsight here, it tells you what was going to happen if we continued to expand NATO and the EU to their borders.

View embedded media

and now with hindsight (view doesn't change)

View embedded media

Didn't Gorbachev come out saying that the US/NATO never said they'd never push further East years ago?

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

 

[jakefest]

Didn't Gorbachev come out saying that the US/NATO never said they'd never push further East years ago?

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

It's documented, I sent a link above. That's in our own archives

 

[WapPride]

It's documented, I sent a link above. That's in our own archives

gotcha thanks. I just find it weird Gorbachev would come out and say otherwise. It sounds like, after reading the excerpts you provided alongside the Gorbachev quotes, that the whole thing is incredibly grey. Gorbachev said there hasn't been a violation of the agreement (as of that interview), but he thinks they violated the "spirit of the agreement", which tracks with the links you provided. It also sounds like, based on Mark Kramer's analysis in the Washington Quarterly*, that the Soviets never discussed NATO enlargements other than how it might apply to Germany.

*https://www.csis.org/analysis/twq-myth-no-nato-enlargement-pledge-russia-spring-2009

that all being said, it's incredibly fascinating, but i'm very clearly out of my depth wrt all this

 

[jakefest]

gotcha thanks. I just find it weird Gorbachev would come out and say otherwise. It sounds like, after reading the excerpts you provided alongside the Gorbachev quotes, that the whole thing is incredibly grey. Gorbachev said there hasn't been a violation of the agreement (as of that interview), but he thinks they violated the "spirit of the agreement", which tracks with the links you provided. It also sounds like, based on Mark Kramer's analysis in the Washington Quarterly*, that the Soviets never discussed NATO enlargements other than how it might apply to Germany.

*https://www.csis.org/analysis/twq-myth-no-nato-enlargement-pledge-russia-spring-2009

that all being said, it's incredibly fascinating, but i'm very clearly out of my depth wrt all this

Yeah, it's really interesting that such a big thing wouldn't be written into a law or a bill. Totally agree on the gray area.

Either way, since Putin came into power, they've very clearly established they don't want NATO on their borders, so it begs the question if there wasn't a more peaceful way to avoid tension/conflict, not just here but places like Georgia as well.

The more I listen to folks like Stephen Cohen, the more I think Russia hasn't really been a threat to us since the fall of the Soviet Union. The country has been in a constant decline since.

 

[fcctiger12]

The more I listen to folks like Stephen Cohen, the more I think Russia hasn't really been a threat to us since the fall of the Soviet Union. The country has been in a constant decline since.

While I agree that Russia has been in decline since the fall of the Soviet Union (and quite frankly building up to the fall of the USSR as well), I disagree that they are not a threat to us. From my perspective, any unfriendly country that has a significant nuclear arsenal is a threat to us. And Russia’s cyber warfare capabilities — while not as scary as China’s — are more than enough to be disconcerting.

 

[PawsFan_]

It’s not going to take a couple years to train them. We have hundreds of launch systems and are sending 8 from training use here. Really puts a dent in our capabilities

Gee, that's not what the active duty US Army Patriot guys I sit next to at work say. That's not what I've learned as a subject matter expert on Air Operations command and control. Have you ever worked with a Patriot battery? Do you know how its set up?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

Gee, that's not what the active duty US Army Patriot guys I sit next to at work say? That's not what I've learned as a subject matter expert on Air Operations command and control. Have you ever worked with a Patriot battery? Do you know how its set up?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

We're not sending over something that's going to take 2 years to figure out to use with Kyiv getting bombed each and every day. And no, US military personnel aren't going to be manning the systems.

ADA AIT | Fort Sill | Oklahoma | Fires Center of Excellence

Fort Sill’s official website with news, events and information about the post and the people who serve and work here.

sill-www.army.mil

I must have missed the 2 years the Army described as being necessary, and experience with Soviet air defense systems is better than nothing. You legitimately believe it's going to take them 2 years to figure it out? It takes 2 years to become a flipping astronaut

 

[DW4_2016]

Gee, that's not what the active duty US Army Patriot guys I sit next to at work say. That's not what I've learned as a subject matter expert on Air Operations command and control. Have you ever worked with a Patriot battery? Do you know how its set up?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

so we finally know you dont do COVID research all day every day. shocking karen

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

Gee, that's not what the active duty US Army Patriot guys I sit next to at work say. That's not what I've learned as a subject matter expert on Air Operations command and control. Have you ever worked with a Patriot battery? Do you know how its set up?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

US to start training Ukrainians on Patriot system on US soil next week

The U.S. intends to begin training with Ukrainian soldiers next week on the sophisticated Patriot missile system first pledged last month.

www.foxnews.com

Several months = 2 years? I thought you said we'd have US military guys manning the systems over there too. So wrong, and wrong again

 

[PawsFan_]

US to start training Ukrainians on Patriot system on US soil next week

The U.S. intends to begin training with Ukrainian soldiers next week on the sophisticated Patriot missile system first pledged last month.

www.foxnews.com

Several months = 2 years? I thought you said we'd have US military guys manning the systems over there too. So wrong, and wrong again

You don't know how these work do you?

Maybe you'd want to read the article. "The training is expected to take several months, though it will still be an expedited process in comparison to roughly year-long program the Patriot missile system traditionally takes. "

Once a serviceman completes schooling, it doesn't mean he's qualified to operate the system. He then goes to his unit and performs in house training before being qualified to sit the seat. That's the reason our troops go to the field and exercise, exercise, and exercise some more to learn how to operate. This isn't just one skillset. It's like a football team. There are about 100 solders in a Patriot battery they need to work as a team.

Who's doing the maintenance on them? You think you can learn to maintain the vehicles, launchers, radar, C2 gear, missiles etc in 3 months? LMAO. The young solders learn the basics and then take years to really master the system.

If you don't think there will be US citizens working as "contractors" in these batteries, you are kidding yourself.

So you can bathe in your own ignorance if you like. Or you and listen to someone who know a heck of a lot more than you on air defense.