I'm ready but still need to see Oliver Stone's movie . https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/15/national-archives-jfk-files-00074041
More JFK Files coming out
- Thread starter PendletonTigers
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All these years later, this is still just a fascinating subject. It's too bad that we'll never really know exactly what happened or how it was planned.
Pretty sure we already know just about everything there is to know. Oliver Stone's conspiracy theory isn't going to help.
It will be a deep dive, very revealing, we can only hope……….
I thought the JFK assassination was a hoax and he’s going to return along with JFK jr at Dealey Plaza and reveal they’ve just been in hiding and then they’re going to take over the country and reinstall Trump as President?
It’s a “conspiracy theory” no matter what the actual facts are bc someone conspired to kill the President. Seeking alternative explanations doesn’t seem to me to be detrimental to anyone as there is no guarantee the mainline story is accurate. After all, the government always tells us the truth don’t they?
And if you want the non conspiracy view, read Case Closed by Gerald Posner.
People have fun with it, and it's more fun now because we're 60 years after the fact. When things were fresher, there was a distinct aspect of denial and anti-Americanism to the conspiracy theories from the sorts of people who couldn't accept that a communist with ties to the Soviets would do something like Oswald did. Oliver Stone is the sort of conspiracy theorist who would find an anti-American, left wing apologizing, conspiracy theory appealing.
The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza is worth the time if you're interested..... great history/coverage etc of that event and time.
My wife and I went there when we played ND in the semifinals. I've been fascinated by the assassination since it happened (I was 12). The museum is definitely worth seeing for anyone growing up in those times.
Not that I disagree, in principle, I don’t. Just curious, have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods?
I get it. My point was this, which was kind of a question:
-The mainline theory is not a “conspiracy theory”, right?
-Any deviations from the mainline theory are “conspiracy theories”?
I’m asking for what you’re saying here. Are you saying any questioning of what we’ve been told is “conspiracy theory” or are you saying specifically Oliver Stones’ line of reasoning is?
For full disclosure, I absolutely hate the term “conspiracy theory”. I think it’s some of the worst garbage we throw around today. It doesn’t even really have any meaning other than to dismiss arguments on their face without much rebuttal (not necessarily saying you, bc I know you will argue facts with people from previous history which is good, I’m saying this as a generality).
Case in point, look at the bolded text in your last post. That is, by definition, a “conspiracy theory” that just so happens to be mainline fact or let’s just call it fact, for argument sake. It still began as a conspiracy bw Oswald/Soviet ties and then was prosecuted into fact.
You could just, much more credibly IMO, say that Oliver Stone is just plain wrong.
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Oddly enough, the Cubans were better at spying back then than we were.
There are some books out there that claim Castro wanted antennas pointed toward Dallas on that day to hear of any news.
There are some books out there that claim Castro wanted antennas pointed toward Dallas on that day to hear of any news.
Did anyone see the interview with meatloaf talking about having their car took by secret service to get to the hospital where JFK was taken to? I think him and some friends were going to a concert or something. I don’t remember all the details but it was very crazy story.
There are real conspiracies, but when people talk about “conspiracy theorists” they’re talking about people doing this kind of thing:
So it’s not just questioning official narratives, it’s how you do it, who you focus on, and an inability to take events that aren’t connected to grand conspiracies at face value.
What I was saying would be a conspiracy theory if I said, without hard evidence, that the Comintern was secretly whispering these conspiracies into people like Oliver Stone’s ears. I didn’t even say there was a concerted effort, which would be a minimum for a conspiracy theory.
There’s also a game people play where they bring up unlikely, not well supported, conspiracy theories under the guise of “just asking questions,” and then insist on treating their theories as if they’re on par with extensively researched and vetted accounts like the Warren Commission. Meanwhile, people become more aware of the conspiracy theories than the official accounts, to the point that they’re not even aware of how official accounts answer the questions they have.
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It's a very well done movie, but Stone is prone to embellish.
Few things that have just never sat right with me:
1) Jack Ruby's well known Chicago mob connections
2) the person impersonating Oswald at the Russian embassy in Mexico a couple weeks before the murder
3) the Warren Commission being told that the main focus of their investigation was Oswald, and being able to sell that it was Oswald to the public. If that's their set directive, it wasn't a real investigation.
They have no reason to lie to us. They are 100% truthful and up front and only want what's best for us. Anyone who believes otherwise still probably believes in Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster and Flat Earth.
Our government would never lie, manipulate nor harm us. This isn't China.
Come on guys this is America, our government would never ever knowingly deceive us
Exactly right. That's what China and N Korea do and Russia. Not US.
Bunch of wacko conspiracy theorist with their tinfoil hats thinking someone is lying to them or hiding something 😂
Healthy skepticism is not a justification for refusing to believe anything official or for giving more credence to anything that questions official accounts. You can both believe that you should be skeptical of some things the government says and that many sources questioning the government or other established sources are not credible.
I think in any situation it’s very important to leave the door cracked open for some degree of skepticism/doubt, even certain things that have been “scientifically proven,” because, well, science can change and human understanding of the world around them changes and evolves over time.
People are naturally fearful creatures, and we take comfort in knowing all these “truths” that we accept nowadays simply because it’s all we know and what we’ve been told our entire lives. People get uncomfortable when you start to challenge their beliefs; it means they have been living a lie and that is very difficult to cope with psychologically.
Just a few centuries ago, you could’ve been burned at the stake for suggesting the Earth was not flat or was not the center of the universe. Just a few decades ago, people were ignorant to the dangers of smoking, lead paint, and other common everyday practices/products. And today, we have people who don’t believe in aliens and think that the 2 most structurally sound buildings in the world collapsed at free fall speed with no resistance due to being hit by an airplane.
Maybe Oswald acted alone and shot JFK from the windo of the book depository. But maybe he didn’t. Something tells me we will never know the whole story
Is the COVID-lab leak a “conspiracy theory”There are real conspiracies, but when people talk about “conspiracy theorists” they’re talking about people doing this kind of thing:
So it’s not just questioning official narratives, it’s how you do it, who you focus on, and an inability to take events that aren’t connected to grand conspiracies at face value.
What I was saying would be a conspiracy theory if I said, without hard evidence, that the Comintern was secretly whispering these conspiracies into people like Oliver Stone’s ears. I didn’t even say there was a concerted effort, which would be a minimum for a conspiracy theory.
There’s also a game people play where they bring up unlikely, not well supported, conspiracy theories under the guise of “just asking questions,” and then insist on treating their theories as if they’re on par with extensively researched and vetted accounts like the Warren Commission. Meanwhile, people become more aware of the conspiracy theories than the official accounts, to the point that they’re not even aware of how official accounts answer the questions they have.
I’ve enjoyed back and forths with you over the years, @ChicagoTiger85, bc your arguments are fluid and logical, generally. This could be fun as well but perhaps too time consuming. That said, as much as I pretty much despise the UN, just look at the “What are they?” component of the definition you sent and apply it to LHO and Soviet ties. That means that the entire plan was “secretly manipulated behind the scenes by powerful forces with negative intent”. It’s simply a “conspiracy theory” that seemingly turned out to be fact.There are real conspiracies, but when people talk about “conspiracy theorists” they’re talking about people doing this kind of thing:
So it’s not just questioning official narratives, it’s how you do it, who you focus on, and an inability to take events that aren’t connected to grand conspiracies at face value.
What I was saying would be a conspiracy theory if I said, without hard evidence, that the Comintern was secretly whispering these conspiracies into people like Oliver Stone’s ears. I didn’t even say there was a concerted effort, which would be a minimum for a conspiracy theory.
There’s also a game people play where they bring up unlikely, not well supported, conspiracy theories under the guise of “just asking questions,” and then insist on treating their theories as if they’re on par with extensively researched and vetted accounts like the Warren Commission. Meanwhile, people become more aware of the conspiracy theories than the official accounts, to the point that they’re not even aware of how official accounts answer the questions they have.
I’ll leave you with this, for now, and I’m sure you’ve heard this quote plenty of times but it further illustrates my point that we shouldn’t use this phrase “conspiracy theory” as a weapon against bad arguments but rather we should simply counter the bad argument with a better one.
“The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings…For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.” President John F Kennedy, April 27th, 1961.
Many believe he was referencing Communism, seems likely. But, he himself was in fact a…”conspiracy theorist”.
I'm with you until the last couple paragraphs. It's not all equal just because we can, with the helpful of 20/20 hindsight, point consensus in the past that was wrong. You can say, "maybe he did, maybe he didn't," but it would be more accurate to say, "it's possible, though unlikely, he didn't, but it seems very likely that he did based on available evidence."
We run into trouble when we start treating the most hairbrained stuff as more likely to be true than official, vetted accounts just because they're unofficial and question to the consensus, which we've predetermined to be corrupt. You say that people are "naturally fearful," and therefore are more likely to believe established truths and get uncomfortable when they're questioned; people are also fearful that things might just happen randomly, or as part of a chain of events they either don't understand or couldn't have expected. So people are apt to believe that there's a secret group controlling things, rather than being subject to nearly chaotic forces. I also think there's a lot of pleasure in thinking you've got special knowledge that the other "sheep" don't have, and that you're on some sort of crusade for truth that sets you above the powers that be.
As far as JFK, actually go and read the Warren Commission Report. It's extremely thorough, and it answers a lot of the questions people bring up.
No, the facts behind Oswald killing Kennedy aren't a conspiracy, as you describe. Gathering all the available first-hand evidence isn't the same thing as sitting around in your house making connections between abstruse events and people to come up with explanations for things that happen.
Just to give an example: the Ping Pong Pizza conspiracy theory involved some very online people sifting through the Hillary Clinton emails that were leaked, not understanding what was being said in some of the emails because they didn't have any first hand knowledge of what was being talked about, and then using their personal prejudice about Hillary Clinton and those around her to motivate a creative account of the meaning of some words in the emails that eventually, ineluctably, led them to believe that there was a ring of pedophiles abusing kids in the basement of the Ping Pong Pizza restaurant in DC.
Now, in some other world, it would be possible for there really to have been a pedophile ring in the basement of Ping Pong Pizza, but emails about ordering pizza for office parties just weren't good evidence for that theory. The police conducting an investigation into Ping Pong Pizza and getting testimonial and first hand evidence of something going on would not be in the same category of "conspiracy theorizing" as what people on the internet were doing.
Another example of that type of "conspiracy theory" thinking is looking at JFK's quote and believing the "conspiracy" he was talking about was something to do with the conspiracy theories related to his murder, and not the much more obvious and explicit interpretation of it as being about international communism.
As far as the COVID lab leak thing goes, it depends who you're talking about. Some people into the lab leak thing think China intentionally let COVID loose, or that Fauci, et al. wanted it let loose to make money off of a vaccine and to keep Trump from being reelected. But there are obviously more legitimate reasons to think that COVID might have come from a lab. What I've found is that quite a few people are as fervent adherents of the lab leak theory as they accuse others of being to the idea that COVID came from nature. Many of them seem so sure that the virus had to have come from a Chinese lab that they see anything to the contrary as an attempt to suppress the lab leak theory, and a whole other conspiracy.
I don’t pretend to have any inside information, but I’ve always suspected foul play
Oswald shot from the sixth floor wind AND from the grassy knoll. What a miraculous achievement.
“Prone to embellish” is an understatement.
Virtually the entire “Mr X” scene was debunked-essentially everything he said, while entertaining, is false.
Great movie, bad history.
If you're really into this and want to dig deeper into the case, and not lazy enough to simply accept what's mentioned in the Warren Report (ha ha) as the end all be all, I recommend this podcast. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jfk-the-enduring-secret/id1551161613. It's insanely in depth, comprehensive, and very objective without bias to any particular theory (single gunman or conspiracy). Great listen!
I’m not getting into conspiracy theories and the like.
But Clint Hill (the USSS special agent that jumped on the back of President Kennedy’s limo) and Rufus Youngblood (SAIC of VP Johnson’s protective detail) are in the above photo. They both served as SAIC VPD.
I’m first in the line up, serving as the Special Agent in Charge of VPD from 2013 to 2015.
Proud to be associated with this group of men who served the USA 🇺🇸 and our Constitution. BillyD
I’m sure all the non-lazy people have taken lots of time to digest the 900 page Warren Commission Report, which took a year to compile.
I've seen some documentaries featuring those guys. They live that day in Dallas over and over again trying to go to sleep each night and waking up the next day with all this self inflicted guilt, perceived as failure. They may just be incapable of giving themselves any credit for every threat they thwarted. It's like you're either perfect or a failure. High stakes and no one notices the successes, only when something like this happens. Amazing the track record of security through all the years if you think about it though. God Bless all you guys who choose to do this and thanks for sharing BillyD!
I’m not getting into conspiracy theories and the like.
But Clint Hill (the USSS special agent that jumped on the back of President Kennedy’s limo) and Rufus Youngblood (SAIC of VP Johnson’s protective detail) are in the above photo. They both served as SAIC VPD.
I’m first in the line up, serving as the Special Agent in Charge of VPD from 2013 to 2015.
Proud to be associated with this group of men who served the USA 🇺🇸 and our Constitution. BillyD
