⚖️ MURDAUGH MURDERS & TRIAL THREAD ⚖️

[pwjacks]

Defense has done exactly what it set out to do this week. Create separation between Alec’s testimony and closing statements and muddy the water with garbage. Personally, I haven’t heard one thing that changes the facts:

1. The victims were shot by someone they were comfortable with

Maybe, maybe not. This has not been conclusively established.

2. The victims were shot with guns that are missing from the property

Maybe, maybe not. Same types of guns/caliber, but that doesn't mean much. These are very common guns and calibers.

3. The shotgun used was loaded with buckshot and then birdshot

Means nothing. Very circumstantial

4. The gun Alec had when law enforcement arrived was loaded with buckshot and then birdshot

Same.

5. AM is verified at the kennel minutes prior to the deaths

THIS. By far strongest evidence particularly since he lied about it.

6. AM lied about being at the kennel

7. There is zero evidence of anyone else being on the property

Nor any evidence that there wasn't.

8. Alec’s frantic behavior immediately following the time of death is damning

Agreed this is strong circumstantial evidence.


I have been practicing law for 20 years, albeit not criminal. Personally, I think he either did it himself or hired someone(s) to do it and he/they got there early and he was there. Either way, guilty of murder but possibly not as charged, which is sadly typical in our criminal system. I would be far some surprised if there is a hung jury. Would be shocked if he is found not guilty. Defense has done a good job introducing doubt and that is all they can do with the circumstantial evidence that clearly points the finger at Alex as either the trigger man or being there and directly/indirectly participating.

 

[CU1TruTiger4Life]

I’m just waiting for Boom’s daily super vague one sentence question/post that throws shade on everything the prosecution has said today.

He texted me earlier and said he has questions about why the local meteorologist said on June 7 it was 86 degrees and the expert meteorologist said it was actually 87 degrees? Makes you think. Reasonable doubt!

 

[other1]

He texted me earlier and said he has questions about why the local meteorologist said on June 7 it was 86 degrees and the expert meteorologist said it was actually 87 degrees? Makes you think. Reasonable doubt!

Are either going to be paid to be expert witnesses???

 

[CU1TruTiger4Life]

Maybe, maybe not. This has not been conclusively established.

Maybe, maybe not. Same types of guns/caliber, but that doesn't mean much. These are very common guns and calibers.

Means nothing. Very circumstantial

Same.

THIS. By far strongest evidence particularly since he lied about it.

Nor any evidence that there wasn't.

Agreed this is strong circumstantial evidence.


I have been practicing law for 20 years, albeit not criminal. Personally, I think he either did it himself or hired someone(s) to do it and he/they got there early and he was there. Either way, guilty of murder but possibly not as charged, which is sadly typical in our criminal system. I would be far some surprised if there is a hung jury. Would be shocked if he is found not guilty. Defense has done a good job introducing doubt and that is all they can do with the circumstantial evidence that clearly points the finger at Alex as either the trigger man or being there and directly/indirectly participating.

Agreed the kennel video and the on-star data is the most convincing evidence. It would be some kind of sweet justice for the video of his dead son to be the thing that does him in. Honestly, without that, I think this case looks much different as he would be able to continue claiming he was never at the kennels, and I don’t think the on-star data would be enough to convict.

I’ve tried to piece together the hired gun as well, but I just can’t wrap my head around who or why he would be so close to the events when it took place. I feel confident in the TOD of 8:50 considering cell phone data of Paul and Maggie. Does he just sit there and watch it happen? Or does he “get out of there” within 3 minutes of him appearing on the snapchat video while the crime takes place?

 

[pwjacks]

Agreed the kennel video and the on-star data is the most convincing evidence. It would be some kind of sweet justice for the video of his dead son to be the thing that does him in. Honestly, without that, I think this case looks much different as he would be able to continue claiming he was never at the kennels, and I don’t think the on-star data would be enough to convict.

I’ve tried to piece together the hired gun as well, but I just can’t wrap my head around who or why he would be so close to the events when it took place. I feel confident in the TOD of 8:50 considering cell phone data of Paul and Maggie. Does he just sit there and watch it happen? Or does he “get out of there” within 3 minutes of him appearing on the snapchat video while the crime takes place?

IMO, that is the question that will dominate the jury room. The TOD of death is circumstantial as hell, but sure makes a lot of sense with a 22 year old and his phone. I have a 20 year old son and they don't stop communicating with friends when they are in an active conversation (which is weird to say, but they have active conversations via snapchat). I have to assume defense will hammer TOD has not been established conclusively and TOD is vitally important. Make no mistake and I think everyone that has paid a lick of attention knows this, but Alex had plenty of shady connections to hire someone to do it right.

 

[Clemblack]

Maybe, maybe not. This has not been conclusively established.

Maybe, maybe not. Same types of guns/caliber, but that doesn't mean much. These are very common guns and calibers.

Means nothing. Very circumstantial

Same.

THIS. By far strongest evidence particularly since he lied about it.

Nor any evidence that there wasn't.

Agreed this is strong circumstantial evidence.


I have been practicing law for 20 years, albeit not criminal. Personally, I think he either did it himself or hired someone(s) to do it and he/they got there early and he was there. Either way, guilty of murder but possibly not as charged, which is sadly typical in our criminal system. I would be far some surprised if there is a hung jury. Would be shocked if he is found not guilty. Defense has done a good job introducing doubt and that is all they can do with the circumstantial evidence that clearly points the finger at Alex as either the trigger man or being there and directly/indirectly participating.

A few things wrong with your post, though I do agree the most likely outcome is a guilty verdict.

1. The evidence does show they were likely familiar with shooter.
2. The guns are not just "same type/caliber." The freaking casings around Maggie match other casing on property. In other words, Maggie was killed with the same gun that had been fired previously at various places at Moselle.
3. There is plenty of evidence that nobody else was on property. No other cell pings, no dogs barking in Paul's video, no other voices at 8:45.
4. At one point you state "means nothing, very circumstantial." Cases can be, and often are, built on circumstantial evidence entirely.

 

[Cavitybacks]

Everything/everyone says Paul was shot first.

Well there goes that theory that Paul shot Maggie. (Not that I believed that. )

 

[GSMTiger]

I’m just waiting for Boom’s daily super vague one sentence question/post that throws shade on everything the prosecution has said today and riles up the board.

You may be flying solo on that one...

 

[gooddogjudge]

Could be onto something. They were near a river.

More likely to be eaten by an alligator than to arrive via the river.

 

[gooddogjudge]

What?!?!

Waters can play guitar. Has been good since high school.

 

[pwjacks]

A few things wrong with your post, though I do agree the most likely outcome is a guilty verdict.

1. The evidence does show they were likely familiar with shooter.
2. The guns are not just "same type/caliber." The freaking casings around Maggie match other casing on property. In other words, Maggie was killed with the same gun that had been fired previously at various places at Moselle.
3. There is plenty of evidence that nobody else was on property. No other cell pings, no dogs barking in Paul's video, no other voices at 8:45.
4. At one point you state "means nothing, very circumstantial." Cases can be, and often are, built on circumstantial evidence entirely.

Those aren't things "wrong" with my post, just a disagreement as to the weight of the evidence or simple wording, which is fine. For example, I say it is not conclusively established that they were familiar with the shooter. You say "they were likely familiar". We are saying the same thing. There is no evidence that there was no one else on the property. Do you think a hired killer would talk, make noise or bring a cell phone? Of course not. I am not saying there was one, but there could be. As to how another gun was loaded, to me, that is meaningless, but just my opinion.

Cases can be circumstantial without a doubt many are. But that is why it is so important for the State's case to be clean and this one is not. I think he is guilty, but I also think defense has introduced enough for some juror(s) to have reasonable doubt.

I don't know the makeup of the jury, but if there is one that has a distrust of the police/law enforcement, they have enough to move the needle. No one, no one, no one can predict what a jury will do however, so we will see.

 

[gooddogjudge]

Those aren't things "wrong" with my post, just a disagreement as to the weight of the evidence or simple wording, which is fine. For example, I say it is not conclusively established that they were familiar with the shooter. You say "they were likely familiar". We are saying the same thing. There is no evidence that there was no one else on the property. Do you think a hired killer would talk, make noise or bring a cell phone? Of course not. I am not saying there was one, but there could be. As to how another gun was loaded, to me, that is meaningless, but just my opinion.

Cases can be circumstantial without a doubt many are. But that is why it is so important for the State's case to be clean and this one is not. I think he is guilty, but I also think defense has introduced enough for some juror(s) to have reasonable doubt.

I don't know the makeup of the jury, but if there is one that has a distrust of the police/law enforcement, they have enough to move the needle. No one, no one, no one can predict what a jury will do however, so we will see.

#2 was certainly wrong

 

[santee]

After hearing the sheriff this morning we KNOW Alex committed perjury on the stand.

You realize the majority of what he said on the stand was perjury

 

[CU1TruTiger4Life]

Im watching today’s trial and I LOL’d at Jim Griff questioning the ballistics guy on how much he was making for this. If that were me I would have said, “not near as much as you are”.

 

[CarolinaLove]

Nobody is going to accuse me of being friendly to AM or his situation but If the above was true, it seems odd that it would not be apart of the trial and in testimony.

It absolutely would be considered motive to kill Maggie as any divorce dives into the finances and marital assets. So either something is shaky about it or it wasn’t really as black and white as People made it.

None of Maggies friends and family that have testified have said anything other than they loved each other. It was stated multiple times that Maggie preferred the beach over Mosselle, particularly during the heat of the summer.

This was not the first year she had spent a lot of time over the summer at the beach. It was also stated that since the boat wreck she felt people had turned on them and it didn’t sound like she wanted to be in Hampton any longer. Throw in they were remodeling the Edisto home and work was being done and it becomes difficult to view her being there in a bad light as it pertains to Alex.

While that supports the theory of a happy marriage on its face, if Maggie was considering a divorce and had an ounce of sense she would keep that quiet while planning her escape. It would give her time to get her ducks in a row without raising suspicion from Alex. Better to get a remodeled house in the divorce settlement.

 

[pwjacks]

#2 was certainly wrong

I have always understood Bullet “casing” evidence to be much less reliable than bullet rifling marks. But, will take that as true and admit I missed that as conclusive. Doesn’t change my thoughts on the overall proof though.

The gps, onstar and phone data is going to be very hard to overcome and is, in my opinion, plenty enough for the average juror to convict. But, the defense has done a good job poking holes and with TOD so important, who knows….

 

[PawsFan_]

Wow. SLED needs to be held accountable. They have been terrible.

You guys realize this is all just the defense's smoke and mirrors right? All BS.

 

[Boom4life]

IMO, that is the question that will dominate the jury room. The TOD of death is circumstantial as hell, but sure makes a lot of sense with a 22 year old and his phone. I have a 20 year old son and they don't stop communicating with friends when they are in an active conversation (which is weird to say, but they have active conversations via snapchat). I have to assume defense will hammer TOD has not been established conclusively and TOD is vitally important. Make no mistake and I think everyone that has paid a lick of attention knows this, but Alex had plenty of shady connections to hire someone to do it right.

Interesting you make the same point I got crucified for by some just a day or two ago.

 

[TigerTC]

You guys realize this is all just the defense's smoke and mirrors right? All BS.

Right. No crime scene is "perfect," let alone an outdoor one in the dark that is secured just before a rainstorm hits.

Much of what the defense does in a case like this is attack procedures, actions, and omissions that are completely irrelevant to the case. But people react that "SLED did a bad job" like that matters, when it doesn't change the irrefutable facts of the case.

 

[santee]

Anyone who thinks Alex is not capable of killing his wife and son needs to watch the Netflix documentary . they guy is pure evil and will do anything it takes to get what he wants.

I do not think there is hardly anyone in that town other than the Murdaugh family that does not believe Alex could kill his wife and son.

His attempt to manipulate who the driver was in the boat accident was fricken ridiculous. Even called Conner's father saying Conner was the driver but he would take care of it. That is in the face of abundant evidence Paul was driving. BTW Alex did not want that case going to trial which to me is enough reason for him to off Paul. It was gonna cost Alex a fortune and his son was gonna end up in jail and embarrass the family.

The fact Poot entered a not guilty plea for Paul with all the evidence against him is fricken amazing. Also was interesting to find out Buster was the golden child and apple of his mother's eye and her and Paul never really got along.

 

[PawsFan_]

I think today was a huge day for the defense. To get a state expert to come in and basically refute his own testimony from earlier in the trial is huge.

Kinsey laid out a description of what happens a couple weeks ago. Today he testifies we don’t really know what happened.

That’s huge, I think we are moving closer to an acquittal now.

Okay you have to be trolling now. LOL Acquittal? Not going to happen.

 

[PawsFan_]

Ok. Well then the real killer(s) are world class sprinters who are also navy seals because they were able to sneak up on them, take their guns and shoot them without them hearing them or showing distress. Paul was shot with his arms down. I guess the little detective dude had his rabbit ears turned down.

You forgot that these SEALS were 5'2" (well 5'4" for men is the minimum height for the services though)

 

[pwjacks]

Interesting you make the same point I got crucified for by some just a day or two ago.

Some people, not all, but I would venture to say most form their opinions early and won't deviate. Happens on both sides. Just human nature but typically why I stay away from these types of threads as people will jump down your throat if you don't see it the way they do. Not sure why I jumped in this one.

The closings will be fascinating. I know every attorney sitting at the main tables and they are all very good lawyers. I hope they televise the judge charging the jury. Most people want to zone out at that point as it is not that interesting, but is one of the most important parts of the case.

 

[PawsFan_]

I’m just waiting for Boom’s daily super vague one sentence question/post that throws shade on everything the prosecution has said today and riles up the board.

Let's not throw too much shade at Boom and Poates. They want fairness too. If I every have to stand a jury trial for a serious crime, I will be DM'ing them begging them to volunteer to be on the jury. 😁 😁😁

 

[7tiget6]

Wow. SLED needs to be held accountable. They have been terrible.

I feel the man was involved in one way or another but there is a lot about the investigation that cause concern. From all the first responders walking all around the crime scene. How many tracks were trampled by vehicles before they shut the drive off. Lies to grand jury. Not locking down that entire estate and searching before every person remotely connected to the firm or family came and went like it was a social gathering. JM saying Sled wasn’t interested when he told em where MM phone was. No danger to public so early in investigation. . Not searching parents home for a while. No matter how small any of those are that’s a little troubling. Again I think he’s guilty but I pray that SLED never investigates something for me/family using these horrible practices. I wouldn’t like to know I’m innocent and they are in charge of the scene.

 

[CU1TruTiger4Life]

Some people, not all, but I would venture to say most form their opinions early and won't deviate. Happens on both sides. Just human nature but typically why I stay away from these types of threads as people will jump down your throat if you don't see it the way they do. Not sure why I jumped in this one.

The closings will be fascinating. I know every attorney sitting at the main tables and they are all very good lawyers. I hope they televise the judge charging the jury. Most people want to zone out at that point as it is not that interesting, but is one of the most important parts of the case.

Are you saying the judge will usually tip his hand and/or lead the jury?

 

[purple2]

l

Lets bye it

get 52 buyers and we each get one week time share at moselle

 

[pwjacks]

Are you saying the judge will usually tip his hand and/or lead the jury?

No. But he charges them on the "law" and how they must apply the facts to the law. Fighting over jury charges is one of the biggest pains in the ass in trial work. Again, I don't do direct criminal work, I associate lawyers in on cases where clients have criminal exposure and then participate in the process, so the jury charge process may be different in criminal cases but I have been in trials that we felt were lost/won on the jury charge instructions.

 

[tigerbean]

I feel the man was involved in one way or another but there is a lot about the investigation that cause concern. From all the first responders walking all around the crime scene. How many tracks were trampled by vehicles before they shut the drive off. Lies to grand jury. Not locking down that entire estate and searching before every person remotely connected to the firm or family came and went like it was a social gathering. JM saying Sled wasn’t interested when he told em where MM phone was. No danger to public so early in investigation. . Not searching parents home for a while. No matter how small any of those are that’s a little troubling. Again I think he’s guilty but I pray that SLED never investigates something for me/family using these horrible practices. I wouldn’t like to know I’m innocent and they are in charge of the scene.

keep in mind that first responders were colleton county - SLED called in but not there for 2 hours or so

also why would Solicitor recuse himself if didn’t see a big issue when the victims’ spouse and father because the suspect

 

[BourbonChuggers]

Sometimes I wonder if he had/has some other serious sh*t going on with the wrong kind of people, that do have the resources to do these hits professionally.
Maybe these people felt like Paul stirred sh*t up and Maggie was snooping too much. And had Alex set this meeting up, thinking something else was going to go down and then as he said “did them bad”. But he’s fearful of what these people would do to others in his family.

He only got busted for $9MM+ so far. No telling what else he’s done that he’s gotten away with.

End of the day. He definitely had something to do with it.

 

[ClemsonGentleman]

Some people, not all, but I would venture to say most form their opinions early and won't deviate. Happens on both sides. Just human nature but typically why I stay away from these types of threads as people will jump down your throat if you don't see it the way they do. Not sure why I jumped in this one.

The closings will be fascinating. I know every attorney sitting at the main tables and they are all very good lawyers. I hope they televise the judge charging the jury. Most people want to zone out at that point as it is not that interesting, but is one of the most important parts of the case.

Can multiple attorneys participate in the rhe closing for each side?

Don't know if I would want just Harpootlian on a senior ramble when my life depended on it.

 

[gooddogjudge]

Can multiple attorneys participate in the rhe closing for each side?

Don't know if I would want just Harpootlian on a senior ramble when my life depended on it.

No. They addressed this last week. Poot wanted judge to allow himself and Jim to split it. Then he wanted to limit it to 2 hours.

Judge said not in my house.

 

[GSMTiger]

No. They addressed this last week. Poot wanted judge to allow himself and Jim to split it. Then he wanted to limit it to 2 hours.

Judge said not in my house.

and to top it off as Poot is making the petition to the judge he said that when he (Poot) was a prosecutor he adamantly objected to the defense requesting to split the closing between multiple attorneys...

 

[7tiget6]

keep in mind that first responders were colleton county - SLED called in but not there for 2 hours or so

also why would Solicitor recuse himself if didn’t see a big issue when the victims’ spouse and father because the suspect

Good point on the sheriffs deputies being first on scene. Again I believe he is involved but there is just a lot as a citizen that concerns me about that whole investigation and collection of evidence. Even in the body cam of responding deputy, just very bizarre that he arrives on the scene 2 deceased with a man with a shotgun leaning on his car. Then precedes to let this guy, who may or may not be a suspect walk around Behind him on the phone. That concerns me more for officer safety than bad investigation but again just a lot to not like. No way he gets a Not Guilty but I could definitely see it hung and would not surprise me if one of the things listed was the reason.

Also I have really enjoyed and appreciated your insights in the thread.

 

[touchdownbob]

Yes. Evidently the hammer striking a shell casing leaves a unique identifiable mark just like the barrel leaving striations on a bullet.

The firing pin striking the primer is unique to a given gun.

 

[PawsFan_]

Alex's alibi is what again?

 

[Tiger Guru]

just reading all of todays posts but to reply before advancing, I thought state did well in rebuttal today - what do you think?

The expert witness that talked about throwing his phone against a wall by himself without recording it didn’t help, IMO. That’s was laughable.

I feel like he absolutely came across as no expert and was called out for it. I also thought the Medical Examiner who had no expertise in shotgun examinations didn’t help when it was pointed out that she had never personally done a shotgun examinations but she thinks she would know based of her experience.

The whole problem I found in this case was the guy who lied and said AM had blood on shirt and was called out for it under oath on the stand. That lie was the reason AM was arrested to begin with and he too was called out about that. If he doesn’t lie about that, he’s likely never arrested. That’s a big deal and hard to get over.

I don’t think he did it. I think he was too much a softy to do it that violently. I think he knows who did. Maybe someone set him up. Maybe he owed the wrong person and they left as soon as he left because they were staking out the place. I can think of nearly $10m reasons someone would want to ruin his life. Either way, I believe he knows why they were killed. But you still have to do a better job than they have, imo before convicting someone of murder.

To me, it’s not impossible that he didn’t do it. When you start looking at the money and financial crimes you never know who he paid or who he owed. He was making payments to someone (allegedly Eddie) for $50k a week for a long time. Allegedly that was for pills. No chance he was doing that much or he would have died after a day. You can’t do that much drugs in a week. Certainly not for a year or more, cmon. He was either preparing for this or paying someone something. They need to look into that more.

I don’t know. I won’t be shocked at either outcome. If you told me someone else did it I wouldn’t be shocked. If you told me he did it or knew about it, I wouldn’t be shocked. We’ll never know. However, if we could find out who grabbed Maggie’s phone and looked at it, if we could see that pic or had that technology, it would solve this case, imo.

 

[Cavitybacks]

IMO, that is the question that will dominate the jury room. The TOD of death is circumstantial as hell, but sure makes a lot of sense with a 22 year old and his phone. I have a 20 year old son and they don't stop communicating with friends when they are in an active conversation (which is weird to say, but they have active conversations via snapchat). I have to assume defense will hammer TOD has not been established conclusively and TOD is vitally important. Make no mistake and I think everyone that has paid a lick of attention knows this, but Alex had plenty of shady connections to hire someone to do it right.

Let’s say Alex did hire someone and they showed up a little earlier than expected.

Alex had the guns set up for him. Alex helps cover it up, etc.

Would you have to have a separate trial for that scenario or could the jury still vote murder if Alex hired it out but was basically standing beside the guy who pulled the trigger. Is that still murder in SC?

 

[tigerbean]

I will apologize in advance especially to @castlesl - not been 100% health wise and didn’t finish what I started on the proposed closing

my money is on a hung jury

If convicted, it will be because of 100 years of being a Murdaugh caught up with him and jurors saw through it - this shouldn’t happen (Netflix effect) - but maybe the BS got so deep the jury let’s him drown in it

 

[purple2]

Let’s say Alex did hire someone and they showed up a little earlier than expected.

Alex had the guns set up for him. Alex helps cover it up, etc.

Would you have to have a separate trial for that scenario or could the jury still vote murder if Alex hired it out but was basically standing beside the guy who pulled the trigger. Is that still murder in SC?

yes--that is still murder but my understanding is that it would require a different "charge" from the prosecuter.