I talked to a Greenville restaurant owner today
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I'm not sure that Communism means what you think it means. Restaurants have many, many rules they have to comply with. Most are related to public health by ensuring proper storage and service of food and cleaning procedures. Would it be "communism" if someone reported him for not keeping his walkin cooler at a low enough temperature or maybe his dishwasher at not a high enough temperature. Social distancing guidelines are there for good or ill to protect the public health, just like the above examples.
It's not Communism to follow basic health/safety guidelines.
Nice post man. The reason you don't see people wearing masks is that wearing a mask sucks. They are uncomfortable and they fog up my glasses. But the REAL reason? They don't protect YOU, they protect other people FROM YOU. And there you have it... there's all kinds of excuses, but the real reason is that if it doesn't help #1, I'm not going to be bothered.
Obama wished so much he could have the power Castro did. Then he could put anybody that wasn’t a radicalized Democrat in jail. He made sure to audit conservatives with the IRS though and encourage poor black people to riot. The ends justifies the means with Godless people, who look upon politics as their religion.
This. People don't understand just how serious this is becoming. Militias exist for a reason. The Dems want to split the country, they're about to get their wish.
The party of the spirit of America?! Is it the party of the Holy Spirit and the Great Spirit of Native American mythos as well? I love that you die-hard conservatives believe that your ideas represent the 'real America.' How could anyone possibly see differently?
This. Why blindly do something that doesn't work. People wearing mask is a perception. The reality is if you're sick you need a mask. But if you're sick, shouldn't you be at home?
Don't forget,when the "experts" first tell you something, it's probably right. Like when Fauci wrote a paper back in January that this was on par with a severe flu. Turns out he was right the first time. The Surgeon General went on the News and stated that wearing a mask could actually cause you to get it. He's probably right.
Don't forget about the people who shut down their business and started making mask. These people need to get paid. We cant have GM making mask, yet nobody is wearing them. We can't talk about how the death rate is less than a half percent because nobody would wear mask. I've never in my life seen the American people do something , just because someone says so. It's like we honestly don't think about it.
Just remember, because you choose to be blind and follow doesn't mean everyone will. Because you're scared and don't want to go out, doesn't mean everyone else is the same. Because you're immune compromised, doesn't mean everyone else is. Stay home if you want. Wear a mask if you want. But don't expect everyone to feel the same way.
In 20 years there will a montage video of America and it will look like the Alabama Leprechaun video. "Everybody stay home save a life say yeahhhhhhh"!!!
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80,000+ people have died in the country in ~ 3 months, even with social distancing restrictions. I'd consider that data to support extreme measures. What is the total amount of deaths that you view is enough to provide "data to support the extreme measures?"
Dude, over half the people that have the virus (and can infect others) don't have any symptoms. The mask can help not spread a cough quite so far. It's not foolproof, but it HELPS. You HAVE to know that, right?
Asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus and not even know they have it. Thats why you wear a mask.
ehhh.. Not what the US Surgeon General said. But, that's the root of it we just believe two different things. That's ok, not going to shame you.
Yes, according to the CDC's own numbers, the total number of Covid-19 deaths is probably underestimated. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
Do you know joe cause of death is normally determined? Because this isn’t any different than normal.
I'm not living my life in fear of SLED being a communist police force attempting to set up a police state because some concerned citizens said that businesses were not following regulations.
I'm not living my life in fear of COVID either.
If you want to lose credibility by pretending that COVID is just the flu, and that literally every country on the planet has done things in response to it that they have never done before, that every government on the planet earth is part of some conspiracy to allow SLED to strip you of your freedoms - go ahead.
SLED has been a dick about shutting down parties and selectively enforcing rules for as long as I can remember. Nothing new. No grand communist takeover. Sorry.
You don't like being able to do what you want to do, exactly the way you want to do it all the time and you want to speak up about it? Great. You are free to do so. It's America. You are free to care only about yourself and to speak out about the government. You are free to hate regulations that restrict your ability to sit inside a restaurant and eat, or be employed, or any other of the many things that may cause you to suffer.
But when you start saying things like SLED enforcement of a regulation is equivalent to communism or that COVID-19 is no different than the seasonal flu, then you lose all credibility. Because it is just patently, factually inaccurate. It's nothing more than hyperbole.
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A) me, you and everyone else knows that number is complete BS. IDK how far it's off because any chance at getting accurate reporting from hospitals went the hell when the CARES Act started providing additional funding for COVID care.
B) But.....let's just assume for the sake of argument that it is true. Once we've lost more than 0.0002% of the US population to this "deadly" virus then maybe I'll be concerned. Once it's started materially affecting the population under the age of 70 without severe health problems then I'll be concerned. Once 50% of the deaths aren't attributable to those in nursing homes or care facilities then maybe I'll be concerned. Roughly 237,000 people in the US die every month. Whether that's from COVID or heart disease or cancer or accident or old age, people are going to die. Until we see an alarming number of deaths in our region then any type of restrictions or closures are completely irresponsible.
The government tells me its safe to go outside. I should reasonably expect to go outside. The Guvnor says its safe to eat at a restaurant as long as capacity is only 50%. I may go to a restaurant. If I go to the restaurant and people swarm the place or the owner lets in more than 50%, I have a couple of choices. I could leave. OR I could call SLED because a bunch of YAHOOs have invaded my "safe space".
Hell there are fire codes limiting people in establishments. Should we ignore those too?
Hell there are fire codes limiting people in establishments. Should we ignore those too?
I am talking more about neighbors turning in neighbors. One person called and reported two children having a play date.
Dude, the government is only useful when it does absolutely nothing to restrict any individual from doing whatever they feel like doing at any given time (except of course those who want to sit in a restaurant and follow the rules, who cares what they want). We should get rid of police and law enforcement altogether, and settle our differences like men (who cares what women think, right? They've "pussified" this country for decades). If you don't like somebody running their mouth to SLED, take them out in the street and beat their ass.
Better yet, use FOIA (a law (gross!) created by the government (impossible!) that allows you to obtain certain information of public significance) to request the names of these communist spies and then get a mob together and go show them what happens to people who have a different world view than you.
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I'm not equating SLED to a communist police force, although I know that's been mentioned by some ITT. What I am concerned about is how quickly people are willing to give up their freedoms and how blindly people follow without facts.
And you're right....this is nothing like influenza. Kids actually get sick from influenza. This virus is not impactful to the vast majority of the workforce who's under the age of 65, yet people are out of work. This virus is completely non-impactful for kids, yet kids are out of school. We have no evidence that the virus is widely transmissible on the beach or on a running trail or in a national park or at a boat ramp, yet they've been closed down.
The virus is obviously real and the elderly or those in poor health need to protect themselves, I'm not going to argue that even if I think it's impact is vastly overstated BUT what I will argue is that logic behind these measures being taken is nonexistent. You can't for one fvcking second tell me hundreds of people at Target together is safer than 5-10 people in a small retail clothing store or that hundreds of people at Home Depot is safer than a few people in a local hardware store yet one is open and one isn't (in many states).
i hate when i go out to the movies and catch heart disease from the couple sitting next to me
The original post in this thread was.
Just one example. If hospitals get overloaded by sick COVID patients, then other patients suffering from other diseases, including children and younger adults, will suffer too. This is a complex situation. It is obviously being treated seriously by governments across the planet than anything in history.
I'm not interested in giving up legitimate freedoms. But freedom is not absolute. Government must balance individual rights against the common good. We are a country and there is a rule of law, that is intended to protect "essential" or "fundamental" freedoms... some variant of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, right? But those things don't always fit neatly together. Our history is full of tension between government regulation and individual freedoms. This is no different.
Ok, I'm done. I agree, never give the government too much power. Same page there. I just think its crazy to start tossing around the word communism when you can't pack yourself into a restaurant like you want.
Maybe have a little respect for the owners of the restaurant and what they want. They probably are happy to follow the rules if it means they can stay open for business. (I'm just speaking generally here, not to you personally).
Sorry to hear about your weak immune system. You should probably stay home if you're concerned. I'm sure your employer will let you work from home temporarily.
Why are you concerned about this? There's no indication whatsoever that this is something to be concerned about in our area.
Fwiw....I think we generally agree. I wasn't trying to indicate we're becoming a communist state, not yet. But people need to be aware that the more control of their lives they give up the closer to that we get.
Two things here:
1. Go look at the statistics from almost any state or country that has had a serious COVID-19 outbreak. The actual number of deaths for the past few months is generally signficantly higher than the average number of deaths plus the reported number of COVID-19 deaths. What is more likely - more people just coincidentally died during this period or more people died of COVID-19 but just where never reported or tested?
2. Are we just saying we should let all of the people in assisted living just die because they dont matter? My mother-in-law is in this category and my wife is worried sick about her. What about all of the people over 70 not in assisted living? Both of my parents are in this category and they are isolating themselves as much as possible but I'm worried about them. What about all of the people with underlying health issues - compromised immune systems. cancer patients, obese people, people with heart and lung issues, etc.? I can name 10 people of the top of my head that I am close with that are in this category, and I am very worried about them.
80,000+ people have died of this virus in the past 2 months, and that is with much of the country social distancing for a good portion of that time. You may not like the social distancing rules and think they are government overreach, but you have to agree that keeping people separated reduces the spread of the disease. I agree we need to start opening things up and getting the economy going, but we need to do it smartly and in phases depending on what is going on with the virus. NY City, Chicago, LA and Miami need different rules than Montana and North Dakota. Big industry needs different rules than general offices. And everyone needs to be smart about interacting with groups of people - wear a mask, keep your distance when you can, continue frequent hand washings, etc. It can be done without killing the economy but every big group that disregards these recommendations puts us at risk of future outbreaks.
Its just simple science, but too many people in this country (including the President) have just totally started disregarding anything scientists say.
@PawsFan_ If this is true, then why is the President of the United States openly lobbying for States to lift social distancing rules, even when polls show majorities of citizens in many of those States favor the rules? Sure sounds like the Federal Government denying States rights?
Some people believe whatever they want to believe, no matter how ridiculous.
First of all, a fascist is not what Obama, Biden or Hillary are. Maybe you can argue they are socialists, but definitely not fascists. Calling Hillary Clinton a fascist just goes to show how uninformed the claim is. Let's try it another way: "You want to see a far-right, ultra-nationalist, look no further than Obama, Biden and Hillary." See how ridiculous that sounds?
Meanwhile, we have a President who said, as @mskoonce alluded, that he can force the states to do whatever he wants, because he has unlimited, authoritarian power, according to him. Not exactly states' rights. Not exactly small government (anyone who believes the Republican party is a "small government" party hasn't been paying attention. Here's a (fake)newsflash - neither party is in favor of small government). A President who, in his State of the Union address this year, literally claimed that he alone (not Republicans, not states, not conservatives - TRUMP) was responsible for rebuilding the economy (and for pretty much every other positive thing that happened over the past few years). That trends vastly more toward fascism than Obama, Hillary or Biden (although I don't think he's a fascist, I think he's a narcissist).
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How do you know it isn't a concern until you remove restrictions completely? How many ICU beds does Oconee Memorial have, for example? I believe the answer is somewhere between 12 and 20. That's not a lot of margin for error.
And yeah, we are just conversing. We mostly agree
.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm - Ever heard of history and statistics? They point to more deaths from Covid-19 than reported so far.
So you don't have a number?
Then why is anyone working if you can do nothing and vacation the rest of your life.
I realize I'm taking it to the extreme, but my original point was it isn't a glorified vacation for everyone.
1) There's typically an 8-week lag from the CDC on mortality data so we don't really even know this yet. Nevertheless, I'd love to see what data it is that you're referring to. And like I said, there are areas who have been severely affected. That's the exception, not the norm when you look across the country.
2) Of course not. As I said, the elderly and immunocompromised need to be making adjustments to their lifestyle. That does not apply to the majority of the workforce though (as I stated previously). If you're at risk then you need to be very cautious.
And to your last point - I'm not sure social distancing has done anything other than tank the economy. If it's so effective than why are countries who have social distanced like Spain & Italy so much worse off than a country that hasn't like Sweden. Why is New Jersey, who has much more strict social distancing rules so much worse off than SC who's done very little to social distance. Why does Greenville County (who is the worst county in the entire country according to the NYT at social distancing) not seeing widespread transfer of this virus?
How do you know it isn't a concern until you remove restrictions completely? How many ICU beds does Oconee Memorial have, for example? I believe the answer is somewhere between 12 and 20. That's not a lot of margin for error.
And yeah, we are just conversing. We mostly agree
I don't know each specific hospital's needs but I know for a fact that the upstate, midlands and lowcountry as individual regions have not been anywhere remotely close to "at capacity" at any point during this chaos.
It's not about a number....it's about what portion of the population is being affected. We all not only have elderly folks in our families but we also will, Lord willing, be there one day ourselves. I'm not unsympathetic to that. But I am a realist and all of our days are numbered. For a virus that is largely not affecting the active workforce I see no reason to shut it down. You are certainly more than welcome to disagree with that but the fact is that 80% of mortality from COVID is in people over the age of 70. When you're over 70 and especially if you're in poor health, any number of health issues could be the end. Of course we don't just forget about these people, we need to be taking major steps to protect nursing homes & assisted living facilities. We need to mandate groceries and stores provide senior-only business hours to protect them. But....we don't need to tell a 40 year old in good health that he can't run his business.
However, it's the governments role to protect Public Safety. Can they not implement safety rules such as occupancy rates?
Is a furlough not a temporary layoff? If it's not my apologies. I know many people who are on layoff for a few months and bringing in $900/wk unemployment. For most of them it's more than they were making when working. So yeah, they aren't exactly in a hurry to go back.
Especially when you consider the $900/wk is actual bring home pay. Comes out to the equivalent of more than $52k/yr
I’m not in the situation so I don’t know. However, it’s my understanding it’s still taxed.
It possibly is, and I'm only speaking for SC. I know the cost of living and avg salaries are much higher in other states.
I'm in TN and my gf is on unemployement. She researched it and said the money given will still be taxed for next year. A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening who did not understand taxes if true. She's smart so I just took her word for it. I've not looked into it at all.
I have no problem with reasonable occupancy rates to avoid crowding. I do have a problem with "you can't be open, period."
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