OT religious issue
- Thread starter SwampDonkee
- Start date
You are an interesting guy, my friend. I enjoy your posts and the gentle tone you take in them. Not sure that I completely agree with your beliefs (probably agree more than disagree), but that's ok. Maybe one day, we'll meet and have a couple of beers because I would like to hear your stories about California and more about how you came to your current belief system.
I've just made a dirty Bombay Sapphire Martini (because real martinis are made with Gin) with 3 jalapeno-stuffed olives and I'm raising my glass in your general direction. Cheers.
Damn......
Sounds fabulous.
Agree on the Gin.
Wish I was there.
We had 3" of snow last night and today..........but melting fast, as it does this time of the year.
as a central BACKBONE of our culture.
FIFY
Just exactly WHERE would you say that the 'right and wrong' basic mores that are needed for such a successful society/country (not perfect) come from?
Serious question?
Shirley, you don't think man is basically 'good'...........
Enjoy it; it’s 86F in Granite Bay and while that’s super, the Sierras are rapidly getting stripped of snow pack...and it was only about 60% of norm this year, anyway.
He was seen by 500 at once after the resurrection. And Jesus stayed on Earth for 40 days after the resurrection. He told the Disciples that the Holy Spirit would come when he left to Heaven. Bible verse about the 500.
after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 1 Corinthians 15:6-7 KJV
Bible verse about 40 days.
to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Acts 1:3 KJV
Just replying to the comment that if the people that don't believe in God are wrong we spend eternity in Hell. So if I don't believe in God, yet live a good life trying to help others, I still spend eternity in Hell with Bernie madoff and Jeffrey epstein? Sounds like God needs to create a middle ground or something.
Why should he?
Every person ever born is blessed with lots and lots of things.
True, many are put through 'hell' by their parents, friends, habits or what have you.
Some face debilitating circumstances, even from birth.
Certainly, there is no way to understand all of that.
Regardless, each is GIVEN life. That, in and of itself, is a gift.
A gift that we humans DO have some control over how we use.
Why would anyone argue that God owes us anything?
He OFFERS everything. Just on His very gracious terms.
Isn't it fair that He can offer, for free, what He wants to, how He wants to.
I mean, it IS His.
The fact that you or I want something different, and even mistakenly think we deserve this and that........... Do we?
Uh, no.
BTW, if you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?
2nd BTW, how in the world can you believe that you or I or anyone lives a 'good life' when every thought, action and sinister deed is counted against our very few nice gestures?
I don't know if humans are basically good or not. That debate has raged since the dawn of time and I doubt you and will settle it. But, it is not the case that rise of Christianity lead to peace and tranquility. Nor is it the case the there were no laws to govern human interaction prior to the birth of Jesus.
I’m from Anderson and have been a Southern Baptist my entire life. I’ve never heard such a reference and can promise you that is weird stuff.
I don’t doubt your story but that is not Southern Baptist doctrine. Find out the origins of that fairy tale and set the record straight.
People are basically evil.
We're born that way.
You don't have to teach a child to be mean, or selfish, or to lie..........and on.
So that settles that.
Never insinuated that Christianity led to any peace and tranquility (on this earth).
Didn't mention Jesus.
this is what I asked:
Just exactly WHERE would you say that the 'right and wrong' basic mores that are needed for such a successful society/country (not perfect) come from?
I think we evolved to live in community- a process that has favored certain behaviors and traits over others. When people’s basic needs are able to be met, they do tend to be pretty decent to each other.
This makes no sense....tell her what you just said....Also what does your brother say...do your siblings have children and if so are your parents saying this to them
your inability to talk to your siblings suggests to me that this is indeed a troll
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Pretty convinced this is a troll but good conversation in this thread.
This message board is overwhelmingly made up of evangelical Christians. So I think we need to remember there is a big world out there with many many religions that all think their way is the correct one. IMO you should be able to worship whatever you like as long as you aren’t violating anyone’s rights or breaking laws. Regarding children, I firmly believe religion should be kept as light and unserious as possible. It’s well documented that strict organized religion has fvcked up many adults based on what they experienced during their developmental years.
Our species has evolved a lot over the past 20 generations or so. Back when the Bible or Koran was written, information was mostly passed along orally and populations never really experienced other cultures. Now, information is readily available via the internet and social norms have rapidly changed to accommodate what used to be suppressed human thought (questioning organized religion, gender, sexuality, spirituality, etc.).
So things are changing with us humans but I strongly believe you should embrace whatever religion you find appealing that doesn’t harm others. If makes you happy then that’s all that matters.
This message board is overwhelmingly made up of evangelical Christians. So I think we need to remember there is a big world out there with many many religions that all think their way is the correct one. IMO you should be able to worship whatever you like as long as you aren’t violating anyone’s rights or breaking laws. Regarding children, I firmly believe religion should be kept as light and unserious as possible. It’s well documented that strict organized religion has fvcked up many adults based on what they experienced during their developmental years.
Our species has evolved a lot over the past 20 generations or so. Back when the Bible or Koran was written, information was mostly passed along orally and populations never really experienced other cultures. Now, information is readily available via the internet and social norms have rapidly changed to accommodate what used to be suppressed human thought (questioning organized religion, gender, sexuality, spirituality, etc.).
So things are changing with us humans but I strongly believe you should embrace whatever religion you find appealing that doesn’t harm others. If makes you happy then that’s all that matters.
It just sounds like extortion. "Believe in Me or spend eternity in Hell". I would understand me not getting 30 virgins, but Hell? Sounds a little vindictive
Really extortion....that is pretty ridiculous
The opportunity is there for all to seek and obtain , everyone is equal ....you are given a choice to accept or reject it...you either have faith it is true or you do not....no one is forced to do anything
I think the point @Steven15 is making is that all of the historical accounts of Jesus (including the gospels) were written decades after his death and not by eye witnesses or people who ever actually knew Jesus.
Tacitus wrote about Jesus approx 80 years after his death, Josephus wrote about him about 70 years after his death. Both were writing about the early Christian movement that existed during that time and were attempting to give it context.
Both mention the crucifixion by Pilate, although Josephus says that Jesus’s brother James was the one that Christians considered the Christ. So they’re mostly recording the oral history of Jesus that led to the early Christians. Tacitus is primarily focused on Nero’s persecution of early
Christians.
The first mention of the resurrection comes from Paul, who wrote about 20 years after Jesus’s death. Paul just kind of proclaims that the resurrection happened in his letter to the Corinthians, though gives no source for this. It’s very much a “hey this is what I heard, what had happened was...”
The earliest of the gospels was written 20-30 years after Paul’s writings and were, at best, second hand accounts.
The point is that all the historical info we have about Jesus was recorded after there had been, at the very least, a couple decades worth of oral history and mythos generated about him by his followers.
I can see why you say that. Really.
Hell is sometimes described as 'separation' from God.
That's not totally accurate, but for another time.
The fact is, there is no middle ground, no nothing-less in between.
God is good. Gracious, Righteous, Creator and more.
If one chooses to not want God in their life at all, He pretty much says "OK".
How does that all go?
Finite man cannot understand very much of an Infinite God.
Too many people try, fail and come up with all kinds of craziness.
Knowing that you have only A or B..........and one is really, really bad........
Given a choice, I'd take the better road.
Whether I understood all of what's going on or not.
Unless they want others' land or wealth or food or......... then they go take it.
Violently.
I'd say that is a better description of how humanity has evolved.
Right and wrong did not develop in a vacuum.
Wrong often became 'right' ........by force.
You are ignoring logic in order to avoid addressing the basic question.
All good.
Just, not beneficial to the discussion process.
So do you believe that morals comes from God via the Bible? It seems to me Christians are forced to either ignore or reinterpret things the bible says in order to align with what society now knows as good and bad. Its an inconvenient fact that the Old Testament endorses slavery and that the New Testament does nothing to admonish it. In fact, Jesus says to serve your masters ect.
I believe that morals, as you call them, come inherently from the human conscience and there is a right and wrong programmed into us.
For instance, even a mafia guy would have friends that might be killers of men, but you kill or torture a child...........no bueno.
The Law of God, i.e. the 10 Commandments and other are guidelines that make sense and certainly a general understanding of right and wrong can be garnered as coupled with such.
Your closing is all too common for people today.
It was once that folks wanted a simple page of an answer.
Then, a paragraph...........then, a sentence.
Now? A word.
Give me that 'magic' word that explains it all. "I don't have time to research and think about stuff. I need the answer NOW."
Life doesn't work that way, despite what our society is screaming.
One can no more pick up a grain of sand along the ocean and call that the seashore than you can pick a part of the Bible and call that 'the Book'.
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If someone struggles to believe then there is hope for that someone. If you deny Christ, then yes you are damned to hell for eternity. Don't like the consequences make different choices. God gave humanity the opportunity to choose a path. The path chosen dictates eternal life. God doesn't make that choice for anyone, he merely gives them the opportunity, what one does with it is up to them. Free Will is the only true right that we as humans have.
Not to get in a pissing contest because a lot of people know more than me, but a lot of these historical figures at that time were written about hundreds of years later. Nobody documented Alexander the Great until 300 years or so after his death, and he was much more significant than Jesus during his day. Jesus had very little importance while he was living.
Relatively speaking, Jesus had a quick documentation of his life/teachings, which was rare at that time. Not saying that proves he's the son of God or something, but just pointing that out.
Maybe we agree here then. I was only commenting that morality doesn't come from god, and that the church has had to adapt their interpretations of his word to reconcile what we consider basic good and bad by our standards today. Also from a Christian mind-set wouldn't "god" be that magical word that explains it all without really explaining anything? Faith (god) seems a lazy way to try and come to grips with some of these fascinating questions.
Well, I didn’t go to heaven, but I was visited by angels June 28, 2007. No mating took place either, and I assure you, that wasn’t their intent. I was’t a Christian at the time and didn’t know the Bible well, though I knew some of the famous verses. They were about 8 to 9 feet tall and the color of the sun (bright white glow outlined in bright yellow glow). All 6 were identical, with no visible facial features, assumably because they were so bright. I asked, “how many guardian angels are there?” And the reply, “as many as are people.” Then I ask, “how many guardian angels does it take?”, and their reply, “as many as are needed”.
I then took a shower, went to work at 3:30am (no sleeping after that), and had a Bible before lunch with my name on it.
Angels do visit people, but not to mate, and it doesn’t make those they visit any type of profit or saint.
INSTEAD of telling your parents off, ask them if they can show you where such talks of mating angels and modern day child profits are written IN THE BIBLE. When they can’t point you to a verse, ask them where the info came from and why do they believe it, since it’s not in the Word. Hopefully, it’ll bring them back to the basics, reminding them to live by the Word, not by gossip of man. It wouldn’t hurt to dig up a few verses beforehand that dismiss their claims and that point to following/living by what is written. Good luck bud!
-oh, I have the angels responses tattooed on my thigh. No, tattoos aren’t sac religious.
I then took a shower, went to work at 3:30am (no sleeping after that), and had a Bible before lunch with my name on it.
Angels do visit people, but not to mate, and it doesn’t make those they visit any type of profit or saint.
INSTEAD of telling your parents off, ask them if they can show you where such talks of mating angels and modern day child profits are written IN THE BIBLE. When they can’t point you to a verse, ask them where the info came from and why do they believe it, since it’s not in the Word. Hopefully, it’ll bring them back to the basics, reminding them to live by the Word, not by gossip of man. It wouldn’t hurt to dig up a few verses beforehand that dismiss their claims and that point to following/living by what is written. Good luck bud!
-oh, I have the angels responses tattooed on my thigh. No, tattoos aren’t sac religious.
Actually, we agree on very little.
And, that's ok.
Example: wouldn't "god" be that magical word
Will give you an out because of the little g, but it's a tiny crack.
God is a being. Jesus (2nd member of the Trinity) is a being. The Holy Spirit is a being. Persons only as a figure of speech.
"When we speak of God existing in three Persons (not as human beings), we mean that God’s existence is comprised of three distinct centers of intellect, emotion, and will. Each Person of the Trinity had a unique role in creation and in the salvation of mankind."
"All three Persons of the Trinity comprise the one, perfectly unified God. They share the same nature and essence, and they are all the same God, but each individual Person of the Trinity is distinct and unique."
I hate taking things out of context for often serious misunderstanding occur.
I would be glad to share several links with you.
God is mystical beyond our understanding, but He ain't a magic word.
One cannot go a few paragraphs down these roads and have an any more idea of your final destination that walking a mile towards Alaska and believing you know it.
Without being committed to digging, don't bother buying a shovel.
Waste of time.
Got it. The trinity is a being. God is mystical beyond our understanding so you can't answer why his word is contradictory to what we understand as basic right and wrong by todays standards. And don't buy a shovel.
Just common sense thinking. They're around 2,500 prophecies in the Bible. Around 2,000 has been fulfilled. I can look up the odds of that happening but doesn't it make even the unbelievers think how any human could predict that many things being predicted then come true? Just food for thought. The last 500 in my opinion will be quick coming to fruition.
#3 and #4 are dependent on whether or not they were introduced to Christianity. African tribes, or any people, who have never been presented the gospel, fall into the scripture below:
Romans 2 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law (the Bible) do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
————
Everyone is born instinctively knowing there is a higher power, and as they mature, know in their hearts what’s good and what’s evil. Hell is for those who knowingly reject Christ after hearing the gospel. Not for those that never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. In such case, they never rejected Christ, and will be judged by what is in their hearts as to their own relationship to God.
Are you TRYING to be contrary or just confused?
The Bible long ago predicted that 'bad' would become 'good'.
That was a 'wicked' move (great move). "He's on bad mofo".........that's a compliment.
Our society is upside down.
Even this forum is not long and powerful enough to list all that's wrong that today people think is 'ok' or 'good' or even just 'let it be, doesn't affect me'.
You know, like abortion on demand.
Basic right and wrong has never more changed than basic light and darkness.
WE are the culprits.
'contradictory' you say?
Just who do you think has changed...........?
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Damn. I grew up in a rural Southern Baptist church in SC where my Granddaddy was a Deacon for many years and I attended several other Southern Baptist churches during my life and I aint ever heard anything remotely close to any of that.
Most of my family is Southern Baptist and I've never heard them refer to anything even similar to what you mentioned. Hate to say it but that sounds like mental illness or some kind of cult instead of the Christian faith.
I would be highly ticked if my parents started teaching my children that angels were sexing up people. As far as evolving Southern Baptist beliefs every preacher I've known preached from the Bible and it never changes. My beliefs regarding God and Jesus are the same that I was taught at an early age. Theres been no evolving.
Sorry you are in this position but I would definitely have to make a stand and tell them to stop teaching my children anything that wasn't in the gospel. That new age stuff ain't right.
Most of my family is Southern Baptist and I've never heard them refer to anything even similar to what you mentioned. Hate to say it but that sounds like mental illness or some kind of cult instead of the Christian faith.
I would be highly ticked if my parents started teaching my children that angels were sexing up people. As far as evolving Southern Baptist beliefs every preacher I've known preached from the Bible and it never changes. My beliefs regarding God and Jesus are the same that I was taught at an early age. Theres been no evolving.
Sorry you are in this position but I would definitely have to make a stand and tell them to stop teaching my children anything that wasn't in the gospel. That new age stuff ain't right.
See I’m raised Christian and go to Church now but this always gets me. So they are all damned to hell? What if they never got a choice? Lets not even get into all the people that lived before Jesus died on the cross for our salvation. Where on a clemson site so what about all the indians here for 1000s of years before they were ever introduced to Jesus Christ. They just damned without a opportunity.
also I remember in High school I was raised baptist and started dating a girl in a different denomination. I remember the pastors son talking to me and asked were I went to church. I told him and he was a bit of a prick. so he said oh good thing you met her as if you stayed there you were going to hell. Which I responded with a question of since this denomination is less than 200 years old and the only one going to heaven why do you think it took 1800 years for everyone to figure out whats the right way to get there. he didn’t answer just walked away
the main core value in Christianity no matter the denomination is to love and respect one another. To me that means everyone and I think we miss out on that a lot. it also says we aren’t to judge and im not saying you do this just since I quoted you as my mine thing was everyone is going to hell if not accepting Christ, but a lot of Christians turn a blind eye to that.
Kudos to OP, I can't believe this made it to 4 pages without going to the round table.
This is unequivocally and categorically false. Almost all off the “fulfillments” are literally vagaries that are only fulfilled by the Bible itself. The literal bibliography of proof is itself.
For example, there are approximately 200 Old Testament prophecies that a messiah would come. This “fulfillment proof” comes in the New Testament. In addition, the prophecies are so vague as to literally read like a horoscope.
Religion is the antithesis of critical thinking. There is a reason why education level is inversely proportional to religiosity. As you dig into the facts and history, organized religion becomes less and less believable. No one knows what’s out there, but religious people are so certain (to everyone else’s detriment) that they do know.
To quote a very wise man, concerning your post I'm replying to:
"This is unequivocally and categorically false."
thanks for making the argument
Proves quite a lot.
If you want to do some digging, you'd be amazed at the historical, non-religious, non-political facts from that time.
Me and @tigers_and_valves got some extra shovels............
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