OT religious issue

[tigerworx]

#3 and #4 are dependent on whether or not they were introduced to Christianity. African tribes, or any people, who have never been presented the gospel, fall into the scripture below:
Romans 2 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law (the Bible) do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
————
Everyone is born instinctively knowing there is a higher power, and as they mature, know in their hearts what’s good and what’s evil. Hell is for those who knowingly reject Christ after hearing the gospel. Not for those that never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. In such case, they never rejected Christ, and will be judged by what is in their hearts as to their own relationship to God.

Sorta liked where you were going, but there's some facts there at the end you may want to consider.
Romans 1:19-23 explains this and is worth studying.

Here's the 19th verse (ESV)
" For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

He goes on to say "So they are without excuse." in part of v.20

Just sayin..........

 

[tigerworx]

Kudos to OP, I can't believe this made it to 4 pages without going to the round table.

You see!
Sensitive, even controversial subjects (sadly, maybe, other than Football) CAN be discussed without name calling and sexual innuendos.

I'm sure @Cris_Ard is proud!

 

[tigerworx]

Agreed. Jesus as historical figure is pretty well documented. Now, whether he was the Son of God or a cult-like figure is not.

wat?

Someone that claimed and predicted and did what was documented he did and said and predicted is not a normal, mortal man.

Of course, you don't have to jump in that boat (where the wind & the waves were quieted AFTER He walked out on the water to get to that boat), but it's kinda hard to follow that you consider Him and His life to be 'pretty well documented" but choose which historical events and evidence that you want to believe.

Not an option He left for us.

He either is who He claimed to be, or not.
There is no room in the middle.

The amount of self-flagellation to be able to take such a stand is amazing to me.

Nothing wrong with having questions, at all.
Something's not right about picking and choosing which facts you want to believe so it's easier for you. That's tough.

Good luck with all that.

 

[tigerworx]

I think the point @Steven15 is making is that all of the historical accounts of Jesus (including the gospels) were written decades after his death and not by eye witnesses or people who ever actually knew Jesus.

Tacitus wrote about Jesus approx 80 years after his death, Josephus wrote about him about 70 years after his death. Both were writing about the early Christian movement that existed during that time and were attempting to give it context.

Both mention the crucifixion by Pilate, although Josephus says that Jesus’s brother James was the one that Christians considered the Christ. So they’re mostly recording the oral history of Jesus that led to the early Christians. Tacitus is primarily focused on Nero’s persecution of early
Christians.

The first mention of the resurrection comes from Paul, who wrote about 20 years after Jesus’s death. Paul just kind of proclaims that the resurrection happened in his letter to the Corinthians, though gives no source for this. It’s very much a “hey this is what I heard, what had happened was...”

The earliest of the gospels was written 20-30 years after Paul’s writings and were, at best, second hand accounts.

The point is that all the historical info we have about Jesus was recorded after there had been, at the very least, a couple decades worth of oral history and mythos generated about him by his followers.

Dude.

"not by eye witnesses or people who ever actually knew Jesus."

You need to stick to football.
Your write ups are very good.

You can't leave these topics alone, though........and I think I know why.
Think you may, too.

Even if you CARED to look up Religious facts, I doubt you'd type the truth.
Not gonna rebut every error.

Suffice to say the Book of John was written by the "disciple Jesus loved" (eye witness, you know) between AD 55 and before AD 70 (because of historical references in it).
By John.
Jesus was 33, like as AD 33.
He spent 3 years with Jesus, he was at the Crucifixion site and at the (totally unexpected to him and the other disciples) Empty Tomb.
LOTS of heavy duty stuff that would remain with someone just like @24TIGER and your playing days remain with you.

Go write a long thesis on an OL Tackle's footwork.
You know, something you love and know something about.

 

[tigers_and_valves]

Are you TRYING to be contrary or just confused?

The Bible long ago predicted that 'bad' would become 'good'.
That was a 'wicked' move (great move). "He's on bad mofo".........that's a compliment.

Our society is upside down.
Even this forum is not long and powerful enough to list all that's wrong that today people think is 'ok' or 'good' or even just 'let it be, doesn't affect me'.
You know, like abortion on demand.

Basic right and wrong has never more changed than basic light and darkness.

WE are the culprits.

'contradictory' you say?

Just who do you think has changed...........?

So slavery is still good? What am I missing here?

 

[tigerworx]

So slavery is still good? What am I missing here?

Not in my mind. But it's still pretty popular.

So is murder and thievery, but who notices any of it?

I know where you're going because you got no where to go.
Because you cannot find the phrase "all slavery is bad and evil" in the Bible.......................there's your "Gotcha" moment for forever more.

There were indentured servants, servants that ruled who ran empires essentially, certainly ran big businesses, etc. and etc. People asked for slavery to acquire things.
You are equating slavery (which was in no way something I would call good) as presented by 'hisssstory' here in the states. It's alive and well in different forms here in the states.........so the laws work?

The Bible does not mention slavery beyond 'being a good........whatever you are" and that's good advice.

You're looking for that flimsy Ace of Spades to build your card house upon so you can come to, sorta in your mind prove, the conclusion you started out with.
To prove.

Takes a lot of effort to force oneself to not use the mind God gave you.

But.
Carry on.

 

[tigers_and_valves]

The Bible does not mention slavery beyond 'being a good........whatever you are" and that's good advice.

The effort seems to be coming from your end my friend. It's almost like your proving my point. Followers of a 1000+ year old book have to rationalize parts because they don't compute. And I'm not looking for an ace of spades, only trying to stick to the original point being made.

Leviticus 25:44-46​

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:1-36​

“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’

Exodus 21:32​

If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

 

[StSimonsIslandTiger]

I think the point @Steven15 is making is that all of the historical accounts of Jesus (including the gospels) were written decades after his death and not by eye witnesses or people who ever actually knew Jesus.

Tacitus wrote about Jesus approx 80 years after his death, Josephus wrote about him about 70 years after his death. Both were writing about the early Christian movement that existed during that time and were attempting to give it context.

Both mention the crucifixion by Pilate, although Josephus says that Jesus’s brother James was the one that Christians considered the Christ. So they’re mostly recording the oral history of Jesus that led to the early Christians. Tacitus is primarily focused on Nero’s persecution of early
Christians.

The first mention of the resurrection comes from Paul, who wrote about 20 years after Jesus’s death. Paul just kind of proclaims that the resurrection happened in his letter to the Corinthians, though gives no source for this. It’s very much a “hey this is what I heard, what had happened was...”

The earliest of the gospels was written 20-30 years after Paul’s writings and were, at best, second hand accounts.

The point is that all the historical info we have about Jesus was recorded after there had been, at the very least, a couple decades worth of oral history and mythos generated about him by his followers.

Ahem.... John was with Jesus more than any other and was at the crucifixion. Wrote the gospel account and 3 letters as well as recorded the Revelation in the New Testament. Paul, a known enemy and persecutor of Christians, dramatically claims a direct life changing supernatural encounter with Jesus.

It is true that some of Paul's letters were written before the gospel books. Galations was probably the first book written in the New Testament.

And even more profound- Home field advantage is real, known, and mathematically proven.

 

[darylcu]

I don’t know bro. That’s what had me concerned. I lived in one for 18 years and never heard anything like what’s been coming out of them for the past 5. You haven’t heard anything like this in your local church?

Sounds like this is an individual church issue, not Southern Baptist. You're painting with a broad brush my friend. Maybe examine things a little deeper before you skip straight to blaming the entire Southern Baptist Church for the teachings of one nut. Been in a lot of Southern Baptist churches and never heard a word relating to what you're claiming.

 

[tigerworx]

The effort seems to be coming from your end my friend. It's almost like your proving my point. Followers of a 1000+ year old book have to rationalize parts because they don't compute. And I'm not looking for an ace of spades, only trying to stick to the original point being made.

Leviticus 25:44-46​

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:1-36​

“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’

Exodus 21:32​

If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

Glad you know how to access the Bible.

I pray you will continue to do so and study it.
The Word is alive and cuts like a 2 edged sword.
Being alive, what you get from it, what it says to your soul changes.

I pray it changes you.

 

[CtLiEgMeSrOsN]

Sorta liked where you were going, but there's some facts there at the end you may want to consider.
Romans 1:19-23 explains this and is worth studying.

Here's the 19th verse (ESV)
" For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

He goes on to say "So they are without excuse." in part of v.20

Just sayin..........

I believe verses 14 and 19 can be tied together:

“14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law (the Bible) do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves.”

I’m not claiming your interpretation is wrong, or mine is right, by any means, but I interpret, “doing instinctively what the law requires”, as another way of saying verse 19:

" For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

Obviously, instincts aren’t learned, but naturally woven into the DNA of all living things from the beginning of its life. ‘Doing instinctively what the law requires’, in my opinion, is as plain to me as not having to think to blink your eyes every few seconds. Likewise, we instinctively know a higher power or God must be responsible for creating all of the complex, beautiful things in this world that he “shows us” on a daily basis, that are impossible to manifest without a designer. He also made us to instinctively know good from bad, gave us the feelings of joy and guilt to help differentiate the two, should our sinful ways start get the best of us.

I also think verse 20 is verification of both verse 14 and 15:

“15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them.”

On their day of judgement, since they “do instinctively what the law requires”, and give a conscience effort to live by, or reject this instinctive gift, will be “written on their hearts”, then:

Verse 20:
“... they are without excuse."

Again, this is just my personal interpretation as a common simple man, who is far from a biblical scholar.

 

[Baloney_Pony]

Ah, predestination. So God knows exactly what will happen in the future because he is all-knowing. But we also have free will to make choices. So God knows right now if I'm going to burn forever or have unlimited ice cream in the clouds.

 

[tigerworx]

I believe verses 14 and 19 can be tied together:

“14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law (the Bible) do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves.”

I’m not claiming your interpretation is wrong, or mine is right, by any means, but I interpret, “doing instinctively what the law requires”, as another way of saying verse 19:

" For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

Obviously, instincts aren’t learned, but naturally woven into the DNA of all living things from the beginning of its life. ‘Doing instinctively what the law requires’, in my opinion, is as plain to me as not having to think to blink your eyes every few seconds. Likewise, we instinctively know a higher power or God must be responsible for creating all of the complex, beautiful things in this world that he “shows us” on a daily basis, that are impossible to manifest without a designer. He also made us to instinctively know good from bad, gave us the feelings of joy and guilt to help differentiate the two, should our sinful ways start get the best of us.

I also think verse 20 is verification of both verse 14 and 15:

“15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them.”

On their day of judgement, since they “do instinctively what the law requires”, and give a conscience effort to live by, or reject this instinctive gift, will be “written on their hearts”, then:

Verse 20:
“... they are without excuse."

Again, this is just my personal interpretation as a common simple man, who is far from a biblical scholar.

I'm no Bible Scholar.
Hope I don't appear to be trying to be.

However, there is much, much more to be said about most of these questions.
I, personally, think there is a limit to how much can be said, understood and discussed about the Word on a Football Fan site.

My preference is to only hit the high spots and address the utter lies.

I have had some reach out PM.
I wish some would.

Seriously considering started a TI member Forum just for these type of discussions..........in depth........ that would include anyone who wanted to join in and have learned people, some pastors - some not, be a regular part of discussions/moderators

What do you think about that idea?

 

[okclem]

So, grew up in Anderson did all the standard southern Baptist stuff till I was 18 then left for the military. I believe a large part of it. (Wife grew up in the northeast not religious but complied.) now we have kids that visit SC every year to see my mom and dad. My parents started talking about angels mating with human women and this whole conspiracy to stop the seed of Christ a few years ago. I mostly ignored it. These last few years they have talked about this 3 year old that claims he went to heaven and how he is basically a prophet of the lord. I’m like “A 3 year old?” Really? God chose a 3 year old to bring us the message? Big issue is they are telling my children this is true and I’m not sure I’m ok with that. Wife hates it.
If you believe in this I don’t want to hear your opinion...
I only want to hear from other guys who have had similar issues with families in the local southern Baptist community that moved away and had to cope with evolving beliefs. How do you handle these issues with your families?

Not anything that extreme, OP. Religious in-laws but they were only methodist. So their discriminatory beliefs were very mild. Christian indoctrination of children is child abuse.