OT: shooting in VA beach

[tigfan92]

Guy shot up his municipal govt office in VA beach. 11 dead including shooter.

This is not ok. This can't be our normal.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ive-shooter-situation-virginia-beach-n1012646

I don't own an AR15 or anything like it. I have a 9mm pistol, a deer rifle and 2 shotguns. I have no issue with banning AR15 type weapons because it will not directly effect me, but I have 2 reservations:

1) What about the rights of law abiding gun owners? Because it does not directly effect me, that doesn't mean it won't effect someone else.
2) Is this really going to solve anything? The guy in VA Beach used a handgun to kill 12 people.

I have yet to hear anyone provide an answer to the question...do you really expect mass murderers to follow a law you put in place? Maybe you make it harder to buy an AR15 at Cabelas, but what about the dude in the hood selling them out of his trunk? And even if a mass murderer can't get the AR15, do you think he's just going to say "oh well" and turn into a non-murderous, model citizen?

Why don't we put the emphasis where it should be....mental health?

 

[Ron Munson]

Yeah they are. Im actually have Aussie FWIW. My family there frequently ask me what’s wrong with our society.

Australia seems to be doing ok

actually almost all forms of violent crime increased in Australia after they passed strict gun laws in 1996.

Assault, sexual assault, and robbery all increased after the ban. I am not stating a correlation, I am just stating a fact that those crimes increased.

Homicides did decrease, but they were already decreasing before the ban went into affect, and the pace of decrease did not increase after the ban.

Everyone likes to claim gun deaths decreased, and that is true, but that is driven by the suicide rate by guns decreasing, however the overall suicide rate increased.

and by the way, gun deaths in the US has been steadily decreasing since the early 90s.

 

[Ron Munson]

Do people realize an AR-15 is not an actual gun, but purely a design? And if you make them illegal, manufactures will just come up with a loophole like they are doing in CA?

 

[Earle36]

If 1 murder is committed by an "undocumented immigrant", that's 1 murder that didn't have to happen. If that was your wife, daughter, etc., I'm guessing that statistic you give will mean jack sh*t to you.

Republicans and Democrats alike are responsible for the state we are in on our border all because they are all slaves to politics. We can fix this problem, a large chunk of it anyway, by closing these loopholes, changing the asylum laws and eliminating the incentive for these people to come here. That's on congress. Every day that passes is another bucket load of potential crime victims.

Plus; it’s dangerous as hell for kids that are forced to go on these dangerous journeys over the border. Lots of sexual abuse. Also the cartels force payments, so it becomes slavery. The Democrats don’t gift a dam though. Same goes for that rhino republicans like the Bushes and McCain.

 

[clemben]

Most abortions are not a girl being raped by her uncle. Most are done as a form of birth control, and a large portion of the left is fine with that fact. To me, that’s evil.

Great. It is evil. I don't disagree.

But rape and incest still happen and you have to account for it (and those are evil too!).

Your comment just completely avoids the substance of what I said, and the substance of the problem with blanket statements and policies about abortion--which is part of the larger social problem we are having in this country...I guess in that regard--you hit the nail right on the head.

 

[clemben]

Plus; it’s dangerous as hell for kids that are forced to go on these dangerous journeys over the border. Lots of sexual abuse. Also the cartels force payments, so it becomes slavery. The Democrats don’t gift a dam though. Same goes for that rhino republicans like the Bushes and McCain.

It is also dangerous for those kids to stay in countries where they are going to be killed by the govt/military/cartel. If that is your wife or kid--would you want that death or send them to the beacon of freedom in the world?

There is a huge difference between asylum seekers and those who are 'illegal' or undocumented migrant workers. They shouldn't even be considered in the same breath.

If we are worried about abuse--we should invest in curtailing that problem instead of wasting so much money on a wall and lawsuits over taking American property through eminent domain seizures.

(as an aside you can blame free market Repubs and dems without a backbone for incentivizing illegal immigration with trade policies that enriched us and wrecked other countries economies and specific trades/jobs that forced the migration while corporate america got rich off of it--basically blame your own cushy lifestyle).

 

[BDAZED]

It is also dangerous for those kids to stay in countries where they are going to be killed by the govt/military/cartel. If that is your wife or kid--would you want that death or send them to the beacon of freedom in the world?

There is a huge difference between asylum seekers and those who are 'illegal' or undocumented migrant workers. They shouldn't even be considered in the same breath.

If we are worried about abuse--we should invest in curtailing that problem instead of wasting so much money on a wall and lawsuits over taking American property through eminent domain seizures.

(as an aside you can blame free market Repubs and dems without a backbone for incentivizing illegal immigration with trade policies that enriched us and wrecked other countries economies and specific trades/jobs that forced the migration while corporate america got rich off of it--basically blame your own cushy lifestyle).

And yet guns are banned in countries that these people are seeking asylum from...

 

[92TigerME]

Maybe not. And I wasn’t saying they would be innocent or absolved. Just that they are very clearly mentally ill.

They were very clearly NOT mentally ill.

Some people would like to blame all bad behavior on mental illness.

 

[gogetem]

It is also dangerous for those kids to stay in countries where they are going to be killed by the govt/military/cartel. If that is your wife or kid--would you want that death or send them to the beacon of freedom in the world?

There is a huge difference between asylum seekers and those who are 'illegal' or undocumented migrant workers. They shouldn't even be considered in the same breath.

If we are worried about abuse--we should invest in curtailing that problem instead of wasting so much money on a wall and lawsuits over taking American property through eminent domain seizures.

(as an aside you can blame free market Repubs and dems without a backbone for incentivizing illegal immigration with trade policies that enriched us and wrecked other countries economies and specific trades/jobs that forced the migration while corporate america got rich off of it--basically blame your own cushy lifestyle).

I agree that there’s a difference between someone seeking “asylum,” and entering “illegally.”

But these people aren’t disillusioned Soviet pilots flying stolen MiGs to freedom. These people, by the thousands, cross illegally, drop the “asylum” word, and are given a date sometime in the future to have their case heard. Do you honestly think that most, if any, of these folks have any intention of appearing before a judge? I don’t.

 

[kgwillison]

I don't own an AR15 or anything like it. I have a 9mm pistol, a deer rifle and 2 shotguns. I have no issue with banning AR15 type weapons because it will not directly effect me, but I have 2 reservations:

1) What about the rights of law abiding gun owners? Because it does not directly effect me, that doesn't mean it won't effect someone else.
2) Is this really going to solve anything? The guy in VA Beach used a handgun to kill 12 people.

I have yet to hear anyone provide an answer to the question...do you really expect mass murderers to follow a law you put in place? Maybe you make it harder to buy an AR15 at Cabelas, but what about the dude in the hood selling them out of his trunk? And even if a mass murderer can't get the AR15, do you think he's just going to say "oh well" and turn into a non-murderous, model citizen?

Why don't we put the emphasis where it should be....mental health?

Do you have facts that mental health in the US is worse than other countries? Do I expect mass murderers to follow a law? Well there aren’t as many mass murderers in other developed countries. Why? Can’t you admit that access to guns is one reason that the rate is higher in the US than elsewhere?

 

[CLT-Tiger]

Do people realize an AR-15 is not an actual gun, but purely a design? And if you make them illegal, manufactures will just come up with a loophole like they are doing in CA?

Lol.. the pistol grip law in Cali as an example. Obviously if you add a pistol grip to a rifle, that rifle becomes more likely to kill, amirite?

 

[Ron Munson]

Lol.. the pistol grip law in Cali as an example. Obviously if you add a pistol grip to a rifle, that rifle becomes more likely to kill, amirite?

Yes, but most importantly, making it black instead of wood stock, makes it extremely deadly.

 

[Dakota's Day]

No. They are basically a 6 shot automatic gun. The automatic guns are not the issue. The huge capacity magazines are an issue IMHO. A normal automatic rifle holds 5 shots at a time before you have to reload.

Semi auto not automatic. Out of curiosity what qualifies as normal?

 

[Hal Kitzmiller]

@Ron Munson is a 5 inch short wearing douchebag that has cats for pets. Has no girlfriend. Is poor. Is a trumptard. And most likely never been laid. Lol at him projecting his insecurities on a ****ing sports message board

 

[Ron Munson]

@Ron Munson is a 5 inch short wearing douchebag that has cats for pets. Has no girlfriend. Is poor. Is a trumptard. And most likely never been laid. Lol at him projecting his insecurities on a ****ing sports message board

Dang, this guy is triggered.

This is what happens when liberals are presented with facts, they go straight to personal attacks.

 

[heatovermeat]

Dang, this guy is triggered.

This is what happens when liberals are presented with facts, they go straight to personal attacks.

The clown is a fat washed up hippie from the 60’s. He/she is living in the past and projecting their insecurities. Sad we have these weirdos in our fan base. Would almost rather take Steve Tanneyhill look-a-likes as our most embarrassing fan.

 

[tiger7557]

It’s a good question. Maybe mental health issues - particularly paranoia or schizophrenia - are more prevalent in white men.

Similarly, why do African American men kill other African Americans at a significantly greater rate than others? This happens far more often than white men killing strangers, so perhaps solving for this issue could save the greatest number of lives.

Exploring racial trends in gun violence shouldn’t be taboo. There are obvious correlations that should inform how we approach improvement.

I agree, but as a black man....I'm not worried about a gang banger from Chicago shooting my sons while they're at school.

 

[tiger7557]

I'm not sure I'd concede to your "vast majority" statement. Most of the school shootings I'm aware of have been perpetrated by children, not men. Other mass shootings not perpetrated by children on schools have involved people of other races, and I'm only talking about in America. In other countries there are mass shootings also, as well as other atrocities like slavery and genocide still today...in 2019. You're obviously clinging pretty tightly to the age old race card, so I'd also point out that there are caucasian "thugs and gang bangers." While you pose a fair question regarding the general mental condition of caucasian males, I think I'd rather dig into why black men kill other black men at such an alarming rate. The math of that answer actually seems like a better place to start a dive into a race argument.

Ok, I respect your opinion....and I applaud your concern/eagerness to resolve the issue of black men killing other black men; I agree, that too is an issue.

 

[hopefultiger13]

12,000 gun homicides the US. Out of a population of 330 million, hardly an epidemic.

45,000 suicides, 70,000 drug overdoses, 480,000 cigarette deaths, 300,000 due to obesity....those are epidemics.

But of course, there isnt a good narrative behind those deaths. Can't ban drugs that are already banned, or cigarettes or Mcdonalds

Not that I'm doubting you bro, but site your sources. I'd love to see where you are getting those numbers from.

I'm going to disagree with the "good narrative" part. There's a HELL of a narrative to be made here. The problem is that it doesn't fit into a 30 second news clip. My wife's a research professor and currently the Dept chair of her public health program at Idaho State. She regularly pulls her hair out about these types of deaths (and she lumps in the gun deaths with the others you point out) as "public health" issues.

In this country health care is very reactionary. You get sick or whatever and you go to the hospital. They fix you up. BUT about 80% of our health issues in this country are preventable in the first place. Overeating (bad nutrition), smoking, addiction, and mental health issues are things that can be addressed BEFORE they cause problems. The real problem (in addition to the lack of appealing sound bites) is that these solutions are not EASY. They are hard, expensive, take time to implement, and even more time to see results from. These are all things our political leadership on both sides of the aisle don't like.

 

[Ron Munson]

Not that I'm doubting you bro, but site your sources. I'd love to see where you are getting those numbers from.

I'm going to disagree with the "good narrative" part. There's a HELL of a narrative to be made here. The problem is that it doesn't fit into a 30 second news clip. My wife's a research professor and currently the Dept chair of her public health program at Idaho State. She regularly pulls her hair out about these types of deaths (and she lumps in the gun deaths with the others you point out) as "public health" issues.

In this country health care is very reactionary. You get sick or whatever and you go to the hospital. They fix you up. BUT about 80% of our health issues in this country are preventable in the first place. Overeating (bad nutrition), smoking, addiction, and mental health issues are things that can be addressed BEFORE they cause problems. The real problem (in addition to the lack of appealing sound bites) is that these solutions are not EASY. They are hard, expensive, take time to implement, and even more time to see results from. These are all things our political leadership on both sides of the aisle don't like.

Numbers are from the CDC.

There are about 35,000 gun deaths annually, 2/3 of those are suicides. Toss out justifiable homicide and accidents, you end up with about 11-12,000 actual gun murders.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Numbers are from the CDC.

There are about 35,000 gun deaths annually, 2/3 of those are suicides. Toss out justifiable homicide and accidents, you end up with about 11-12,000 actual gun murders.

Sweet. They seemed right, I was just curious.

 

[Ron Munson]

Sweet. They seemed right, I was just curious.

And I am not trivializing gun homicides, just stating that it fits good narrative, and that is why it it talked about so much, while these others are ignored.

Gun regulation is not the answer. Multiple studies have shown this, including one commissioned by the Clinton administration regarding the assault weapons ban (that showed the ban had no real effect on gun crimes) and another by the Obama administration.

In addition, gun deaths have been steadily decreasing since the 90s.

I don't know what the answer is, but it is not more gun control. It is more of a culture issue, that may just be unfixable.

 

[hopefultiger13]

And I am not trivializing gun homicides, just stating that it fits good narrative, and that is why it it talked about so much, while these others are ignored.

Gun regulation is not the answer. Multiple studies have shown this, including one commissioned by the Clinton administration regarding the assault weapons ban (that showed the ban had no real effect on gun crimes) and another by the Obama administration.

In addition, gun deaths have been steadily decreasing since the 90s.

I don't know what the answer is, but it is not more gun control. It is more of a culture issue, that may just be unfixable.

I'm not a big gun control guy myself. Hell, I used to be a member of the NRA and everything. My Dad got me a lifetime membership when I was in the 6th grade. He would get the American Rifleman Magazine and I'd get the American Hunter one. It was pretty sweet. My Dad gave up his membership back in the 90s (and I did it at the same time). He was so pissed off at he NRA VP for penning that letter calling federal agents "jack booted thugs". I didn't really pay it much attention at the time, but I figured if my dad, who was a life long gun enthusiest, bailed on the NRA, it was probably the thing to do. Later, I learned that was when George HW Bush turned his membership in as well.

When I was a kid, the NRA was a gun safety group first and foremost. They advocated for the responsible use of firearms. That was something I could (and still could) get behind. Owning firearms is a BIG responsibility. And the NRA preached that. Now apparently, they preach that everyone, no matter how stupid, crazy, or just plain bad has some sort of God given right to have guns. They definitely use their lobby power that way, opposing any sort of gun law, no matter how sensible.

I don't believe in gun laws as a general rule, but just like your freedom of speech doesn't let you yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Your right to bare arms shouldn't let you have guns if you are bat shit crazy.