That and the few that are left don't represent a large enough voting block.
"Roots" has been hard to watch.
- Thread starter tigerbacker72
- Start date
That and the few that are left don't represent a large enough voting block.
Have you ever read the articles of secession for our state? They literally are all about protecting South Carolina's states rights to have slavery. This isn't about taxation without representation. It was about protecting the slave trade with the proliferation of slaves in the south after the invention of the cotton gin. The rich wanted to get richer at the expense of a whole race they saw as less than them. Lincoln didn't want that. He didn't care about making blacks equal, but he didn't want a republic which had 2/3 of the population enslaved africans. You're right it's not that complicated.
Most of the country's wealth was in the South at that time. I'd love to keep this debate going as you've put some thought into this post rather than a sentence or two full of emotional dribble but I'm heading into work right now. I shall return either at lunch or after work. Assuming the thread is still here cause people nowadays want to just censor things they don't agree with or are difficult topics to discuss. I enjoy the discourse.
Sooo there weren't families forcibly split up on the auction block, cages put on slaves heads, slaves whipped tied up, slaves dropping dead in the fields from being overworked, regular rapings etc?
Let's go to Frederick Douglas's "Narrative of the life of a Slave" where he in later life regrets deeply not trying to run away at an early age. Where he recounts being whipped weekly for just being socially awkward. How he saw his aunt (yes, a woman) being whipped by a man for no apparent reason.
I'm still trying to figure out what you're trying to do other than marginalize how terrible slavery really was in the south.
Please, in detail, tell me where Hollywood got it wrong. I'll wait.
OP was pointing out horrors of slavery. Pretty cut and dry regardless of example used as reference.
Some bizarre rationale in this thread. Southern slavery was an atrocity. Trying to justify or distract from that plain reality is hard to comprehend.
A TV mini series could never come close to conveying the true horrors of owning another human being. Slavery was real. The abuse was real. Not something made up by Alex Haley. To passive aggressively minimize it in terms of historical context is disturbing and sad.
Some bizarre rationale in this thread. Southern slavery was an atrocity. Trying to justify or distract from that plain reality is hard to comprehend.
A TV mini series could never come close to conveying the true horrors of owning another human being. Slavery was real. The abuse was real. Not something made up by Alex Haley. To passive aggressively minimize it in terms of historical context is disturbing and sad.
When I saw this thread last night, I predicted that it would bring harmony and unity to the WZ. Swing and a miss by me, I guess..
I'll wager a lot of people ITT get their science from Fox News, too.
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It was a wretched time in American history that helps demonstrate just how primitive of a society we still were. American Indians, Chinese, Blacks, and Immigrants in general were all treated incredibly poorly. There was no regard for the poor or the non majority. I'm from Charleston. I love to study our history, especially around the Civil War. But I don't try to rationalize how terrible it is by just attributing it to the social climate at the time. I don't look at the Birmingham Church Bombings and just say it was a product of the times.
so, Gone with the Wind was accurate? Birth of a Nation was accurate? All of these very popular & PC at the time. I mean, Birth of a Nation was even heralded by Woodrow Wilson. So, which ones are accurate? Especially based on books written as fiction.
I never said slavery was good. I said if you base your history on Hollywood, you're a fool.
That's accurate, history can't be rewritten. But discussions around social issues shouldn't be ignored if it is had in the right manner. It drives awareness and educates. The problem is that a lot of people are too immature to embrace it. They think every thread where they don't agree is intended to be divisive. Right or wrong for posting, OP was just stating he was disturbed. I see that all the time about social issues on this board. If the viewpoint is opposed or does not relate to the majority, it is crapped on.
You could state "the shvt is over. You can't rewrite history" for damn near every topic, football related or OT.
Here's an interesting take you ought to use the "parachute mine" and read up on.
I for one am in no way defending or condoning "slavery" but simply want to expand the conversation.
Copy and paste the URL below then read up on it.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076
Then to expand the knowledge base do the following.
Type in African Slave Trade on Google and you will be amazed at the information
Type in "modern slave trade" and that is even more appalling.
Please let me repeat for clarity that I do not condone or believe any slavery by anyone is an acceptable but it at one time was a practice that was in some cases terrible and in in some cases the slaves were like family as please read the Bible as there were slaves discussed there.
I'll interject for a minute and say a few things.
#1 The world was and still is a very dark place. Many of the Africans were wrong for enslaving their neighbors. I won't call them brothers because they often were very different culturally and linguistically speaking. They often were in conflict with each other and had serious rivalries.
#2 The slavers and slaveowners were wrong for participating but were raised in it. In other words, they should be held accountable for their actions but understand that they were following a precedent formed by every major civilization before.
#3 Slavery was often very bad and even if they weren't beaten they were worked to the bone and families were split up. Aside from the occasional beatings and familial separation, other forms of labor were similar for just about everyone up until the explosion of the middle class in the 1950's. Again there is still a stark contrast between being a poor white family in the 1890 and a slave family in 1790 but neither situation was good or offered much in the way of moving up in society.
So we should all be able to agree that the there were some great evils committed in our world. Almost every civilization has had slaves, there have been countless genocides and pointless wars, gender inequality, and child labor. What we should also understand is that societies change and when there is wealth and some semblance of democracy things are more fair but probably never quite equal. However, for the vast majority of civilized history, people have been ruled over by the elite and if you weren't elite things were just different degrees of bad. Poor in the Industrial Revolution= bad, black in the Americas circa 1800's= terrible, poor in Russia in the 1900's= also terrible. Atrocities are committed by people all the time and it doesn't hurt to look back as well as forward. We need to feel the sting emotionally but also react rationally.
#1 The world was and still is a very dark place. Many of the Africans were wrong for enslaving their neighbors. I won't call them brothers because they often were very different culturally and linguistically speaking. They often were in conflict with each other and had serious rivalries.
#2 The slavers and slaveowners were wrong for participating but were raised in it. In other words, they should be held accountable for their actions but understand that they were following a precedent formed by every major civilization before.
#3 Slavery was often very bad and even if they weren't beaten they were worked to the bone and families were split up. Aside from the occasional beatings and familial separation, other forms of labor were similar for just about everyone up until the explosion of the middle class in the 1950's. Again there is still a stark contrast between being a poor white family in the 1890 and a slave family in 1790 but neither situation was good or offered much in the way of moving up in society.
So we should all be able to agree that the there were some great evils committed in our world. Almost every civilization has had slaves, there have been countless genocides and pointless wars, gender inequality, and child labor. What we should also understand is that societies change and when there is wealth and some semblance of democracy things are more fair but probably never quite equal. However, for the vast majority of civilized history, people have been ruled over by the elite and if you weren't elite things were just different degrees of bad. Poor in the Industrial Revolution= bad, black in the Americas circa 1800's= terrible, poor in Russia in the 1900's= also terrible. Atrocities are committed by people all the time and it doesn't hurt to look back as well as forward. We need to feel the sting emotionally but also react rationally.
I was talking about an account of slavery from an actual slave. Again, I'll wait for the more specific things you're implying that Roots was exaggerating.
It is history so we need to know about it but get over it.... nothing we can do as it is in the past ....hell the red necks in the south in the 60s were worse, but we cannot do anything about that either
I prefer not to watch movies about either and IMO making them only gives those who want to use those times as an excuse they deserve something now for what happened to their ancestors 50 to 150 years ago. Plus agree with T Dutch Hollywood is gonna sensationalize that stuff. For every movie made about a slave that was treated right and progressed there are 25 about those that were treated like shvt.
I prefer not to watch movies about either and IMO making them only gives those who want to use those times as an excuse they deserve something now for what happened to their ancestors 50 to 150 years ago. Plus agree with T Dutch Hollywood is gonna sensationalize that stuff. For every movie made about a slave that was treated right and progressed there are 25 about those that were treated like shvt.
Please tell me from my original post ITT where I brought up Douglas' book. I was talking about Hollywood accounts of history. You're putting words in my mouth that I was questioning a nonfiction book.
You're not very good at this.
The direction of this thread is nothing I didn't expect, but still a little alarming. This thread is likely full of those who are mad at Obama for apologizing for something that happened in 1945, but dismiss the hatred and institutional enslavement and racism towards blacks that existed up until the 60's and 70's saying, "it is history, just get over it."
We've seen statements like "Slaves were treated like family." Family isn't property who when they want to run away or move out they have a ransom for dead or alive.
We've seen it morph into off topic anger at entitlement culture with disdain for those equally ignorant to want reperations for slavery.
Just like there are those wanting to push the narrative of white guilt, there's just as many slavery apologists here. We've got a LONG way to go in this country still. I'm not watching roots, didn't watch 12 years a slave because I don't need to be reminded how terrible it was. Just like I turn the channel when holocaust stuff comes on. I simply don't want to see it. But when folks talk about how terrible those things in human history were I won't do anything but agree with them. That's simply all you should do as a human being capable of compassion and empathy. And dare I say most of the folks in this thread are likely Christ followers as well.
Probably one of the most rational and balanced responses I've ever seen on TI.
I was stating that Douglas's book coincides with similar story lines to what we see in Roots. Thus, the accounts that you are implying are Hollywood exaggerations simply aren't. There a mirroring what we know from Douglas's accounts are real history.
You've implied that parts of the story are fabricated or exaggerated from what actually occurred. Please tell me what things happened in Roots that did not occur to slaves at points in the south REGULARLY. We're not on the same page here, agreed. This isn't a thread about white guilt, which is how I believe you're taking it. What this has turned into is completely marginalizing the horrible realities of history with American slavery.
You just said you never saw Roots or are going to watch it, so you're point is meh to me. Again, putting thoughts & words into my mouth.
You could say Birth of a Nation was just as accurate. I mean, it was filmed/written by Hollywood at a time closer to the period it depicted. Please tell me how that film was innacuate, or could, gasp, be questioned or criticized?
You see my point?
I shouldn't get into this, but what the hell
1) Slavery was atrocious. Period.
2) Every other nation abolished it without a massive war killing 700,000 people. Some countries did just like our government does now:
pay people to give up slaves, where now we pay farmers not to plant and fishermen not to fish. And no, I am not equating these things, just pointing out what could have been an option.
3) for #2 above and other things, Lincoln was an idiot and a war criminal. So was Sherman
1) Slavery was atrocious. Period.
2) Every other nation abolished it without a massive war killing 700,000 people. Some countries did just like our government does now:
pay people to give up slaves, where now we pay farmers not to plant and fishermen not to fish. And no, I am not equating these things, just pointing out what could have been an option.
3) for #2 above and other things, Lincoln was an idiot and a war criminal. So was Sherman
Dutch, for a guy getting his panties in a wad about putting words in people's mouths that's exactly what you're doing. I said I'm not watching it. Not that I never saw the original.
Sure there's some stuff in Birth of a Nation that was accurate, however the entire intent is pro-white and anti-black propaganda. There's white people acting as blacks raping white women in the movie. It's meant to stir hate.
You will likely disagree, but Roots was meant to be an expose into the horrors of slavery. And if it was meant to villianize abusive slave owners, I'll struggle to see where there is objection to that.
I'm just not sure where adding anything more to the statement "slavery was horrible and it's hard to watch depictions of it" is fruitful in any way but to let folks know you've got some issues you need to work out.
Ironically, it was our bugs that we carried with us, not our guns that killed most native populations. This was true for all of the America's (New World), not just here in the US.
That's BS. There were multiple bills inroduced in the senate and congress by southern representatives for the phase-out slvery in the US prior to the civil war. Those bills were rejected mostly by northern representatives that wanted an immediate end to slavery.
Great Britan had more slaves per citizen than any country in the world at the time, yet they somehow managed to eradicate it without a civil war. You are correct that the timing would have been different, but make no mistake slavery would have been ended with or without the civil war. Lincoln just used that issue as a way to polarize the northern states in an effort to get support for military action following succession. You can think what you want, but if not for the revenue loss, the civil war would have never happened, but just like other leading countries at the time, slavery would have ended.
Yeah it's pretty sad that their own people sold them for jewels, among other things. Then again, probably not a bad thing to get out of there. Those Tribes are terrible and they still are far from civilized, even today. I couldn't imagine still being part of those tribes. They aren't wearing Jordans over there.
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So says the guy who got his "panties in a wad" when I said Hollywood was not the best place to get your history from.
You responded to me. I should not have given a flip what you thought, but it's a slow morning. This was a thread about the remake, which you said you were not going to watch.
You could say Birth of a Nation was meant to show the horrors of blacks to whites. It was so popular even the President of the US thought it was the greatest movie of all time (still is if you look up "greatest movies"). But, it was Hollywood's version.
And, you seem dense. I never said I disagreed as to the premise of Roots or what it meant to show. But, hey, in this day and age you cannot question a movie if it's very unPC to do so. Much like it was not PC to question Birth of a Nation back in the day.
Don't think I've ever heard anybody call Lincoln an idiot, that's a new one
I don't even know where to begin here.
For some, slavery is the past. For others, it bears considerable reflection here and now.
Let me give you a personal example. I welcome your thoughts. (Some of you may have already read about this in the New York Times.)
My Catholic parish in the Georgetown section of the District of Columbia is overseen by the Jesuit Province of Maryland (it has responsibility for Jesuit religious, parishes and schools from Pennsylvania to Georgia), which also oversees Georgetown University. Back when slavery was permissible even the Jesuits owned slaves to work on their Eastern Shore plantations. (Yes, it is despicable to me too and I have high regard for the Jesuits.) The plantations were failing and Georgetown, too, needed money to keep operating. The Jesuit province sold 272 slaves - largely to plantation owners in Louisiana where their fates were much worse than on the Eastern Shore plantations - to raise money for the school and province.
Now, thanks to researchers both at and outside of the university, Georgetown is recognizing that it needs to do something to atone for its grave mistake. (What seems to be the focus of news is the sale of the slaves but to me the ownership of the slaves in the first place is just as bad.)
Some recommend that Georgetown provide scholarships to descendants of the slaves (the researchers are tracing family trees where possible). (It should be noted that Georgetown probably does far better than most private universities in having a socioeconomically diverse campus.)
Closer to home for me, the very first recorded wedding that ever took place at my parish was to two slaves and they had to have permission of slave owners to wed. Blacks were required to sit in the balcony of the church - they later left the parish to form a separate congregation of Black Catholics elsewhere in Georgetown. As a parish, I think we need to reflect on our history (today, this is probably considered one of the most progressive Catholic parishes in the nation and not a soul would try to justify our forebearers). The issue isn't going to magically go away and it shouldn't. I don't have the answers but I think we need to somehow acknowledge our history, recognize that it was the furthest thing possible from Christian belief, and find a way to atone for our mistakes ... even if it is just finding a way to memorialize the mistakes of the past.
Let me give you a personal example. I welcome your thoughts. (Some of you may have already read about this in the New York Times.)
My Catholic parish in the Georgetown section of the District of Columbia is overseen by the Jesuit Province of Maryland (it has responsibility for Jesuit religious, parishes and schools from Pennsylvania to Georgia), which also oversees Georgetown University. Back when slavery was permissible even the Jesuits owned slaves to work on their Eastern Shore plantations. (Yes, it is despicable to me too and I have high regard for the Jesuits.) The plantations were failing and Georgetown, too, needed money to keep operating. The Jesuit province sold 272 slaves - largely to plantation owners in Louisiana where their fates were much worse than on the Eastern Shore plantations - to raise money for the school and province.
Now, thanks to researchers both at and outside of the university, Georgetown is recognizing that it needs to do something to atone for its grave mistake. (What seems to be the focus of news is the sale of the slaves but to me the ownership of the slaves in the first place is just as bad.)
Some recommend that Georgetown provide scholarships to descendants of the slaves (the researchers are tracing family trees where possible). (It should be noted that Georgetown probably does far better than most private universities in having a socioeconomically diverse campus.)
Closer to home for me, the very first recorded wedding that ever took place at my parish was to two slaves and they had to have permission of slave owners to wed. Blacks were required to sit in the balcony of the church - they later left the parish to form a separate congregation of Black Catholics elsewhere in Georgetown. As a parish, I think we need to reflect on our history (today, this is probably considered one of the most progressive Catholic parishes in the nation and not a soul would try to justify our forebearers). The issue isn't going to magically go away and it shouldn't. I don't have the answers but I think we need to somehow acknowledge our history, recognize that it was the furthest thing possible from Christian belief, and find a way to atone for our mistakes ... even if it is just finding a way to memorialize the mistakes of the past.
A lot of sad commentary in this thread.
XCUDB
Slavery had been vilified long before SCs secession. Slavery just provided SC the "excuse" for breaking the compact with northern states. The underlying reason was that 75-80% of the taxes funding the federal government were paid by southern states. The thing that put it over the edge was Lincoln being elected, which for the first time in history, put a regionalized party (the new Republican Party) completely in control of the government. It is no coincidence that SC seceded shortly after this.
Dutch, no one on this board is getting their history from Hollywood. Some getting their news from Fox might be a different story.
But I think we're both getting tired telling each other what they're saying and telling each other what they should think. Thanks for at least not letting the post denigrate into name calling.
Birth of a nation was absolutely horrendous. I liken it to picking on the other kid in middle school. It was great, your buddy who was class president though it was hilarious. Now that we're in our 30's it was one of our greater regrets and something to learn from.
And yes, I'm very dense. I lift big weights bro.
I was the guy protecting people from the bullies. I popped the class bully for picking on a poor soul that I think may have ended up special Ed. That guy - the bully - ended up running his motorcycle into the back of a car while racing over the James Island Connector.l when we were around 21. Really sad thing was he took a girl out who was not his "finance" who was on the back of his bike. Then his sister, who was a state senator, cried that if SC had had a helmet law then her brother would have lived. One punch I would not take back. Guy was an asshole.
And, the president of our class my entire high school career was a black woman who's dad was col at the Citadel. Lol.
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I'm so
Sorry, i had to stop reading your drivel at the second sentence.
Slavery definitely WAS on the way out.
Only 20 years before the war, slavery was being voted out in the northern states. There were more abolishionists in the South than in the north.
It may seem hard to understand how people could tolerate something that is so clearly immoral. I have a response to that.
Do yiu think it is immoral to dump poisonous chemicals into our atmosphere? Criminal even?
If you answered yes, go sell your cars. Today. No, that would allow others to do the same. Have your car crushed.
Do it today.
Hmmmm.......not so easy, eh?
Sorry, i had to stop reading your drivel at the second sentence.
Slavery definitely WAS on the way out.
Only 20 years before the war, slavery was being voted out in the northern states. There were more abolishionists in the South than in the north.
It may seem hard to understand how people could tolerate something that is so clearly immoral. I have a response to that.
Do yiu think it is immoral to dump poisonous chemicals into our atmosphere? Criminal even?
If you answered yes, go sell your cars. Today. No, that would allow others to do the same. Have your car crushed.
Do it today.
Hmmmm.......not so easy, eh?
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