You think MLK would be against affirmative action? Cause you know this is not what he meant when he said this. He was just trying to have the right to take a shit in the same toilet.I appreciate the detailed post. I think there are some of these elements out there for sure. But I also think there is some nuance that places the vast majority of people securely outside of "white nationalism," even when it comes to some of those categories.
I think many people were turned off by things like DEI quotas and boys playing girls sports. That's reasonable. That's not white nationalism.
While we should teach accurate history about the wrongs committed in our past, we shouldn't teach kids to be ashamed of the current USA as a result. National pride is not white nationalism.
Immigration has been a thing forever. This isn't some new white nationalist movement. From 2004...
I'm not a culture war guy and think Desantis' focus on it (and others) is over-the-top. But again, some of the early legislation - like not teaching kids about transexualism until after 3rd grade - isn't unreasonable or nationalistic.
Are there some who have taken it too far? Sure. Are there some who have just bought into the propaganda of furries and CRT in schools, which are mostly cheap parlor tricks to stir up votes? Sure.
I'm still not buying some systemic white nationalist movement.
BTW, does this comment fall under the white nationalist descriptor? It will be a good measuring stick.
Let's judge people based on the content of their character and the merit of their work rather than the color of their skin.
MLK obviously said something similar and the SCOTUS ruled in alignment, but it seems that comment may be considered white nationalist propaganda in today's climate.
What Does the Republican Party Stand For in 2023?
- Thread starter okclem
- Start date
Yeah, of course there’s always nuance when it comes to philosophies or ideologies, right? Its never 100%. Not every Christian believes the exact same thing about every issue within Christianity, but what makes them Christian is a few shared core beliefs and that’s generally what I’m looking for when identifying a white nationalist or a fascist or a communist et al, what are the shared core beliefs?I appreciate the detailed post. I think there are some of these elements out there for sure. But I also think there is some nuance that places the vast majority of people securely outside of "white nationalism," even when it comes to some of those categories.
I think many people were turned off by things like DEI quotas and boys playing girls sports. That's reasonable. That's not white nationalism.
While we should teach accurate history about the wrongs committed in our past, we shouldn't teach kids to be ashamed of the current USA as a result. National pride is not white nationalism.
Immigration has been a thing forever. This isn't some new white nationalist movement. From 2004...
I'm not a culture war guy and think Desantis' focus on it (and others) is over-the-top. But again, some of the early legislation - like not teaching kids about transexualism until after 3rd grade - isn't unreasonable or nationalistic.
Are there some who have taken it too far? Sure. Are there some who have just bought into the propaganda of furries and CRT in schools, which are mostly cheap parlor tricks to stir up votes? Sure.
I'm still not buying some systemic white nationalist movement.
BTW, does this comment fall under the white nationalist descriptor? It will be a good measuring stick.
Let's judge people based on the content of their character and the merit of their work rather than the color of their skin.
MLK obviously said something similar and the SCOTUS ruled in alignment, but it seems that comment may be considered white nationalist propaganda in today's climate.
You’re right that aiming for immigration reform isn’t, in and of itself, a part of white nationalism. And there are perfectly legitimate and reasonable debates that can and should happen around our country’s immigration system. But when you look at the increasingly intense rhetoric and policies that are starting to show up, when you look at that rhetoric put together with other positions, policy around immigration becomes part of a larger idealogical structure.
You point to a South Park episode that kind of illustrates my point, in 2004 the issue was immigrants who are taking jobs that Americans could have otherwise had - fast forward to 2016 and Trump is running on the platform that immigrants are violent criminals. That’s a sharp difference in rhetoric. Another statement from Trump that, to me, was very telling was when a judge halted his travel ban on mostly Muslim countries and Trump said (paraphrasing) “of course he ruled against me, he’s Mexican“ suggesting that Trump’s stance on immigration influenced the decisIon. This thought process that a person will act in the best interest of their ethnic or racial heritage and that that heritage pits people against each other is white nationalism at its very core.
But to your point, white nationalism certainly isn’t anything new. I mean, you can go back before the civil war and see when white nationalist narratives and talking points began creeping into the American culture. Certainly after the civil war when the southern ”lost cause” narrative took hold, that was really the birth of white nationalism as a political tool.
And since then we’ve seen various elements of white nationalism become part of the political landscape, some in the form of subtle dog whistles, some more overtly. But I also think that white nationalism is systemically engrained in America’s culture and the reason for that is - the country was, in fact, founded by white people with white traditions and white values and white religions. So when you talk about American traditions or values, you are inherently referring to traditions and values put in place by white men.
I think where you see political affiliations line up now is that there’s a group who says ”we should actively work to maintain and defend America’s traditions, values, and religious beliefs” there’s a group who says “we should actively work to pull away from America’s traditions, values, and religious beliefs” and there’s a third group that says “we shouldn’t be actively doing either, we should just do the best we can to make the country the best it can be.” I think most people fall into category 3, but they don’t always vote, and they don’t always donate. The people in the first 2 groups do and so they get the loudest voices.
I don’t think many people are actually white nationalists, but I do think many people are supporting white nationalists positions and repeating white nationalist rhetoric without realizing it. And national pride certainly isn’t nationalism, but national pride based on half truths and falsehoods is nationalism and that’s what I think we’re seeing more and more of.
And that’s really what’s new with white nationalism. Sure its been around for a while, but I don’t know that its ever been so openly embraced as it is now by mainstream politicians, certainly not since the civil rights era. This embracing of white nationalist philosophies is causing a mainstream acceptance of post truth beliefs and that is, I believe, the biggest existential threat to our democracy. Whether it comes from the right or the left, the absolute inability for us to agree on simple, basic facts is just destroying us. There are so many things that we could be doing right now as a country to drive economic growth, innovation, improving quality of life, but we can’t do it because we spend all of our time arguing about things that are already settled fact. Instead of talking about how we can drive the economy through green initiatives or innovate with new forms of energy, we’ve spent decades arguing over whether or not climate change is even real. And when the very real issues of climate change start to manifest themselves over the next several decades (look up climate migration if you think immigration is a problem now), America isn’t going to have an answer for it because we wasted the time we had to prepare.
On your MLK comment, I mean context matters right? Whether something is “white nationalist” or not depends on who is saying and why they’re saying it and who they’re saying it to.
White nationalist is a made up term by the left to try and weave a connection between America First populists and racism and all sorts of other bad stuff. Once again this is all made up BS and attempted mind programming to make weak kneed conservatives afraid to stand up for their beliefs out of fear of being labeled a racist nazi by inference.
nationalism
This is all hate mongering from American communists. The usual suspects are the ones always coming out with this crap.
nationalism
noun
- Devotion, especially excessive or undiscriminating devotion, to the interests or culture of a particular nation-state.
- The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
- The belief that a particular cultural or ethnic group constitutes a distinct people deserving of political self-determination.
This is all hate mongering from American communists. The usual suspects are the ones always coming out with this crap.
You literally posted a definition that states that you believe a cultural or ethnic group constitutes a distinct people and deserves political self determination. You just proved everyone's point and didn't even realize it.
Talk about clueless self owning.
Dbjork details a nice breakdown illustrating his thoughts on a subject. No shit flinging done to any specific party while he lists out the history of white nationalism.
Growls comes in and just throws shit against the wall blaming communists.
It's hard to have intellectual debate on here because one group's brain is tapioca.
Growls comes in and just throws shit against the wall blaming communists.
It's hard to have intellectual debate on here because one group's brain is tapioca.
I'm impressed with your in-depth analysis of white nationalism. I've certainly never given it nearly the thought you clearly have.
That said, my general feeling is that there is overlap between what you view as part of white nationalist beliefs and what are just the beliefs of normal, everyday, white and non-white people.
You mention religion and traditional values. The is a huge portion of the country who would suggest that anchoring around faith in God, a strong family and traditional values is a very, very good thing. There are huge portions of Black and Hispanic communities that would agree with this. This isn't a White Nationalist thing - not at all.
I'm also not making the link between white nationalism and ignorance about things like climate change. I think these things exist independently. People get in their political camp and just dig in on certain topics. Or believe the spin from that side.
The climate in particular has been a frustrating one. The right's position of deny deny deny and drill baby drill is stupid. So are impractical proposals from the left. The GOP should have taken a position of conservation and innovation. We're the party of the outdoors - let's protect our planet in every way possible. Regardless of your feelings on global temps, this is a good thing. And let's invest in the future of energy efficiency so we can lead the world in energy capabilities beyond fossil fuels.
That's a winning and contrasting position to draconian restrictions of fossil fuels and a forced shift to impractical and inefficient means of energy production. Just one example. But again - zero relation to white nationalism.
I agree with both of you guys. The danger in White Nationalism is that it uses basic things such as religion, family values, etc to get in the door, then it slowly starts to erode and add more and more conspiracy and Nationalistic doctrine.
An example is the Mons for Liberty group. On their Face they claim they want to protect children, make sure that they aren't subjected to things that they shouldn't be, not sex trafficked etc. Who could have a problem with that? Dig a little deeper and see what they are really are about.
Another example was the #savethechildren movement during Covid. Who doesn't want to help kids and help stop child trafficking? There were rallies, stuff all over social media, until it was discovered that it was started as a qanon movement to recruit moms.
QAnon's 'Save the Children' morphs into popular slogan
MORRIS, Ill. (AP) — At a busy intersection in this small Illinois town, Lynn Vermillion smiles at passing drivers who honk their support for the colorful posters she and friends wave: “Save Our Children.
apnews.com
Conservative Group 'Moms for Liberty' Gains Enemies As Its Chapters Expand
The group now has 177 chapters in 34 states, with the stated goal of wresting back education from the government and putting it in the hands of parents.
www.newsweek.com
I spent a large chunk of my time at Clemson reading/writing about political ideologies, under one of the most conservative people I’ve ever met btw, so political philosophy is kind of my intellectual jam.
My climate change example was less about white nationalism and more about how post truthism is crushing our ability to have a functioning government. White nationalists and other extreme groups on the right and left rely heavily on their ability to erode the general public’s understanding of facts and acceptance of universal truths. Maybe climate change wasn’t the best example in the context of white nationalism, but its a good example in the broader context of post truthism.
And these kinds of “alternative facts” are typically more efficiently utilized by right wing groups as conservative minded people are, in general, more susceptible to trusting what they “feel” rather than trusting objective reasoning. There was a moment at the 2016 Republican convention when Newt Gingrich kind of gave the game away, he was on a discussion panel and the commentator was pointing out that Trump‘s talking points about crime being extremely high were just blatantly untrue, and that in fact the opposite was true, crime was at historic lows. But Gingrich responded with (paraphrasing, of course) “but that‘s not how people feel.” And that is, in a very small nutshell, what post truthism on the right is all about.
And look, when it comes to ”traditional values” and that kind of rhetoric, those types of sayings have, for a long time, been code for protecting “white” traditions and leveraging that to keep certain people marginalized. Over the years “traditional values” has been a euphemism for maintaining slavery, for denying women equal rights, for rejecting integration and other aspects of the civil rights movement, for anti-LGBT movements, etc. So even though YOU may not mean it in that context, that phraseology has long been used as a not so subtle dog whistle for racist, sexist, and homophobic thought. And this is what I mean when I talk about white nationalism being systemic. “Traditional values” is such an engrained concept in the American lexicon that its lost its original context. You use that phrase without realizing you’re echoing over a century’s worth of white nationalist talking points. This muddies the rhetorical waters which is a net benefit for extremist groups who can now use language to access the mainstream.
Getting into conservatism or traditionalism amongst the black and latino demographic is kind of a whole other conversation. Certainly every culture has their own version of traditional values they want to protect, and there’s some crossover, but you’ll find that they aren’t really the same. In America, traditional values has typically been used to refer to specifically white, christian traditions and values.
Great freaking post. The "post-truthism" concept is fascinating and what has made the current political discourse so challenging. Facts don't matter which makes debate almost impossible.
On this board how many freaking times have we seen a tweet about election "issues" that are extremely easy to debunk, and have been debunked 100 times? What's wild is it truly doesn't matter that it's been debunked, because it "feels" true. Or "I know" it happened.
The GOP is rushing headlong into huge election losses in 2024
As the 2024 elections approach, the GOP is doubling down on issues that will cause them great heartache on election day.
thehill.com
White nationalism is a leftist trope. There are nationalists of all colors and ethnicities.
There are absolutely millions of people self identifying as progressive democrats that are supporting socialist and borderline communist actions and policies by the current leadership imo.
White nationalism is fake and there are millions of communists here? What are all these people doing shooting up mosques and synagogues? Are they lost? Took a wrong turn at mein kampf?
Can you tell me a specific communist policy that Democrats support?
Police state treatment of your political rivals for one. Dictator like decisions by potus in the form of EO's thst go against the will of the people. Facilitating open borders against the will of the people which is Dictator like. Income redistribution schemes taking from one group to give to another. Facilitating media filtering to only allow govt endorsed messaging to air. It's on its way.
A great example.
O’Keefe: Biden’s No. 3 DOJ Pick Demanded Twitter Censor Project Veritas’s Undercover Reporting on Illegal Voter Registration in Fulton County
O'Keefe: Biden's No. 3 DOJ Pick Demanded Twitter Censor Project Veritas's Undercover Reporting on Illegal Voter Registration in Fulton County | The Gateway Pundit | by Cristina Laila
James O’Keefe on Friday revealed Vanita Gupta, Biden’s No.
www.thegatewaypundit.com
I'm sure it feels like a police state when you support a criminal enterprise, but Biden had nothing to do with the crimes Trump committed - he did that all by himself. Besides, a police state is more characteristic of an authoritarian one-party regime - you know, the kind that MAGAs long for. "Lock Her Up!"
FYI - Trump far outpaced his predecessors when it comes to executive orders with an average of 55 a year, compared to an average of 35 for Obama.
Sounds to me like you hate what you support.
LOL at Gateway Pundit and James O'KeefeA great example.
O’Keefe: Biden’s No. 3 DOJ Pick Demanded Twitter Censor Project Veritas’s Undercover Reporting on Illegal Voter Registration in Fulton County
O'Keefe: Biden's No. 3 DOJ Pick Demanded Twitter Censor Project Veritas's Undercover Reporting on Illegal Voter Registration in Fulton County | The Gateway Pundit | by Cristina Laila
James O’Keefe on Friday revealed Vanita Gupta, Biden’s No.
Exclusive: James O’Keefe Is Now Under Investigation for Looting Project Veritas
Prosecutors in Westchester County, N.Y., are pursuing charges against the right’s premiere “gotcha video” scammer, for scamming his own donors.
www.thenation.com
I would just like to point out that none of these are communist positions because in communism there is no state or government at all. There can be no dictator in communism because there is no state.
I suppose there’d be no borders either, so I’ll give you a half point for that one.
These are things that occur in communist states so I will take all the points. LOL!!
Have you ever considered that those states weren’t actually Communist? That it was communism in name only?
"Republicans love to rant about communism, but they almost never mention the far more imminent threat of fascism — because that’s become their main policy agenda over the past few decades. Most of this fundamentally dishonest Republican anti-communist rhetoric began in the 1950s."
"For communism to take over here would require a complete government capture, the end of all private property, and the suppression of dissent. This will not happen here in the U.S. because the American people would not tolerate it. In large part that is because everybody knows that the countries that have gone communist have turned into repressive basket cases.
But wealthy interests who don’t want to pay taxes to support a strong social safety net are eager to claim that Democrats who support these all-American programs are, in fact, communists. A claim supported by their stooges like Cruz, DeSantis, and Greene.
This movement by the morbidly rich, which has fully captured the Republican Party, is led by fossil fuel and big business oligarchs who are using the social, religious, and political values of the old Confederacy to build a modern nationwide movement. They’ve built their political house on the foundation of bigotry, misogyny, and hate.
That movement, at its core, is fascist. And just like fascists of Europe in the 1930s who claimed that their main enemies were communists, these fascists label all who oppose them as commies.
They do not actually believe that Democrats are communists, of course; they are not that stupid. It is just a convenient term of demonization. Fascists have always known that to enrage people to the point of violence it’s necessary to first turn their opponents into “the other,” and “communist” is a convenient all-purpose term to do that."
Red Scare tactics: Why Republicans label all who oppose their agenda as Communists | Milwaukee Independent
www.milwaukeeindependent.com
Yep. Its a total strawman. The idiots who repeat the narrative apparently believe it and have never read a book. It cant be empathized enough how much of a strangle hold the fossil fuel industry has on our media and politics. Its insane."Republicans love to rant about communism, but they almost never mention the far more imminent threat of fascism — because that’s become their main policy agenda over the past few decades. Most of this fundamentally dishonest Republican anti-communist rhetoric began in the 1950s."
"For communism to take over here would require a complete government capture, the end of all private property, and the suppression of dissent. This will not happen here in the U.S. because the American people would not tolerate it. In large part that is because everybody knows that the countries that have gone communist have turned into repressive basket cases.
But wealthy interests who don’t want to pay taxes to support a strong social safety net are eager to claim that Democrats who support these all-American programs are, in fact, communists. A claim supported by their stooges like Cruz, DeSantis, and Greene.
This movement by the morbidly rich, which has fully captured the Republican Party, is led by fossil fuel and big business oligarchs who are using the social, religious, and political values of the old Confederacy to build a modern nationwide movement. They’ve built their political house on the foundation of bigotry, misogyny, and hate.
That movement, at its core, is fascist. And just like fascists of Europe in the 1930s who claimed that their main enemies were communists, these fascists label all who oppose them as commies.
They do not actually believe that Democrats are communists, of course; they are not that stupid. It is just a convenient term of demonization. Fascists have always known that to enrage people to the point of violence it’s necessary to first turn their opponents into “the other,” and “communist” is a convenient all-purpose term to do that."
Red Scare tactics: Why Republicans label all who oppose their agenda as Communists | Milwaukee Independent
It's all about picking an adjective that most people agree is bad and associating it with the people you are denigrating.
Republicans try to message to emotions while Democrats message to the part of the brain that is about reason and empirical evidence.
All of them? Again, communism doesn’t have a state. So any communist state is, by default, not actually communist.
You are getting caught up in trying to be a smart@$$. You should know what I meant and if not then I do not really care.
I just wish you’d call ideologies by their correct term instead of using buzzwords.
House Freedom Caucus: Let Trump Walk or We’ll Shut Down the Government
House Freedom Caucus: Let Trump Walk or We’ll Shut Down the Government
The right-wing group also wants ensured passage of a draconian immigration law and an amorphous demand to end “woke” policies in the U.S. military.
www.thedailybeast.com
Considering what was written in the Atlantic the other day they may be walking themselves towards eviction from office.House Freedom Caucus: Let Trump Walk or We’ll Shut Down the Government
House Freedom Caucus: Let Trump Walk or We’ll Shut Down the Government
The right-wing group also wants ensured passage of a draconian immigration law and an amorphous demand to end “woke” policies in the U.S. military.www.thedailybeast.com
They will surely lose the House and hopefully by a huge margin. Everything they ran on was a lie and if they believe all this bvllshit is what Americans want, I think they're going to learn a painful lesson.
They are doing a decent amount of what I wanted but need to pick it up. I want treasonous Joe impeached yesterday.
How many elections have to be lost for you to understand that you represent what America DOESN'T want?
And how's that war on inflation, crime and the border going? You know, the issues they ran on?
