$15 minimum wage

[scotchtiger]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

 

[Willence]

There should be no minimum wage. Nothing drives wages down more than a minimum wage. We're so stupid in this country right now. I'm left wondering what we teach of any value in school at this point.

EDIT: Well it is possible that corporate taxation and employer provided benefits drive wages down more than a minimum wage but it would be hard to say for sure.

 

[firegiver]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

Seems too expensive to me. Based on the inflation rate I would expect a federal min wage to be around 9 bucks. I've worked a ton of jobs, chemical plant fork lift operator was one I did during summers, I believe i made 8 bucks an hour. I've worked for grocery stores, summer camps, restaurants as as broil cook and a waiter. I'd say the tipping culture in America is beyond stupid and that we should do away with it.

 

[scotchtiger]

This will also cause inflation, which will hurt those at the bottom more than those at the top. Workers at a bread company aren't making $15/hr. Now they will be forced to, so bread company either 1) jacks up bread prices to cover the wage increase or 2) lays off workers and replaces with automation or something more efficient.

Neither has an effect on me. Either has an effect on the economically vulnerable. Very sad that this is what the left is pushing.

 

[scotchtiger]

Seems too expensive to me. Based on the inflation rate I would expect a federal min wage to be around 9 bucks. I've worked a ton of jobs, chemical plant fork lift operator was one I did during summers, I believe i made 8 bucks an hour. I've worked for grocery stores, summer camps, restaurants as as broil cook and a waiter. I'd say the tipping culture in America is beyond stupid and that we should do away with it.

The tipping culture is a bit excessive, but in general, I appreciate pay-for-performance compensation structures. It aligns motivations. Work hard, do a good job, earn more money. Don't do a good job, earn less money. Being in sales, I'm used to that model and it works.

 

[nytigerfan]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

I was surprised that he put that in there, but I wonder if it is more of a negotiation tactic, something that he can remove to get the republicans to go along with his stimulus package. I believe that the minimum wage should be raised, but I don't think it belongs in this bill.

 

[jakefest]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

Just wait until AOC explains inflation to business owners and despite costs going up, that it's their civic duty not to raise their prices. Absent the day they taught economics apparently.

This will lead to automation where applicable. McDonalds already proving this point

 

[jakefest]

This will also cause inflation, which will hurt those at the bottom more than those at the top. Workers at a bread company aren't making $15/hr. Now they will be forced to, so bread company either 1) jacks up bread prices to cover the wage increase or 2) lays off workers and replaces with automation or something more efficient.

Neither has an effect on me. Either has an effect on the economically vulnerable. Very sad that this is what the left is pushing.

Bingo

 

[scotchtiger]

Just wait until AOC explains inflation to business owners and despite costs going up, that it's their civic duty not to raise their prices. Absent the day they taught economics apparently.

This will lead to automation where applicable. McDonalds already proving this point

I mean she’s already failing basic math, much less economics and inflation. She’s mad Joe only included $1400 direct payments when she wanted $2K, I assume failing to grasp that $600 in the last bill plus $1400 in the next bill is equivalent to the $2K payment she originally wanted.

 

[firegiver]

Just wait until AOC explains inflation to business owners and despite costs going up, that it's their civic duty not to raise their prices. Absent the day they taught economics apparently.

This will lead to automation where applicable. McDonalds already proving this point

Automation is already on the way. With the AI driving vehicles the transportation and shipping economy is about to be flipped on its head.
What should we do then? Imagine all the people out of work. Should we tax computers?

 

[scotchtiger]

Automation is already on the way. With the AI driving vehicles the transportation and shipping economy is about to be flipped on its head.
What should we do then? Imagine all the people out of work. Should we tax computers?

I'd start by spending less as an answer to your tax question.

But we will have to solve for low-skill workers being replaced by AI.

I do know that my landscaper routinely complains that he can't find good people to work and that job can't be replaced by computers. He pays $12+/hr, which is $5 more than minimum wage here. My guess is that there is a divergence between willingness to work and availability of certain jobs that would be immune from technology replacement.

Heck, I can barely find trades to do work around the house now. Laborers are incredibly busy here and are in high demand. More jobs that can't be replaced by tech.

I think you also have to factor in immigration. I'd rather have laid-off Uber drivers picking oranges than collecting gov't checks.

 

[jakefest]

Automation is already on the way. With the AI driving vehicles the transportation and shipping economy is about to be flipped on its head.
What should we do then? Imagine all the people out of work. Should we tax computers?

Automation isn't on the way, it's here just not across all industries as of yet. I do it for a living (algo trading, analytics, signals etc) and we've seen growth in this space since 2007.

The point is, this will be expediting automation of jobs the same way the financial markets had to expedite it when insane amounts of regulation put pressure on trading/brokerage margins. Firms will reinvest profit for growth but when you have an unplanned hit against your bottom line, it normally results in cost cuts.

Raising corp taxes, raising min wage, raising income tax......you're staring down a good deal of inflation or tons of cost take out ....ie, layoffs, offshoring etc.

Given the Obama/Biden approach to taxes, I wouldn't be surprised if he does tax computers. Similar to Murphy suggesting he's going to apply a transaction tax to any trade executed in NJ (ie, pretty much every single equity trade in North American transacts in NJ).

When you create burdens, businesses normally solve it by taking cost out, cutting off business lines all together or merging but they won't just stay stagnant.

 

[yoshi121374]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

I am in favor of a higher minimum wage. As it currently stands, we are subsidizing corporations by allowing them to pay employees less than a liveable wage,and then on the back end,we provide social programs that are tax supported.

I do agree that it needs to be for full time employees, and over 18 employees. I don't think you should have to pay a part time kid $15 an hour while he is in school to work at Hardee's.

 

[FLaw47]

I think one of two things should be true and I'm somewhat neutral on which to take.

1. If you work 40 hours a week, you should be paid enough by your employer to live
2. If you work 40 hours a week (or have a qualifying excuse) the government needs to ensure you have enough resources to live

My basic premise is this: working 40 hours a week should guarantee you the ability to live on your own. I don't care if you're 15 or not; your labor isn't inherently worth less than that of an 18 year old. $15 an hour is a way to get towards 1 since government welfare is apparently the literal devil.

 

[firegiver]

I'd start by spending less as an answer to your tax question.

But we will have to solve for low-skill workers being replaced by AI.

I do know that my landscaper routinely complains that he can't find good people to work and that job can't be replaced by computers. He pays $12+/hr, which is $5 more than minimum wage here. My guess is that there is a divergence between willingness to work and availability of certain jobs that would be immune from technology replacement.

Heck, I can barely find trades to do work around the house now. Laborers are incredibly busy here and are in high demand. More jobs that can't be replaced by tech.

I think you also have to factor in immigration. I'd rather have laid-off Uber drivers picking oranges than collecting gov't checks.

Who in the world can feed a family on 12 an hour?

 

[scotchtiger]

Who in the world can feed a family on 12 an hour?

Two parents earning $12/hr working full-time is ~$50K per year. I assume you can eat on that... If you want to earn more, either make yourself more valuable or work more.

In my family, both parents work and we each work more than 40 hours per week. I'm not sure why we would set the bar lower for other families.

 

[Willence]

Automation is already on the way. With the AI driving vehicles the transportation and shipping economy is about to be flipped on its head.
What should we do then? Imagine all the people out of work. Should we tax computers?

I think one of two things should be true and I'm somewhat neutral on which to take.

1. If you work 40 hours a week, you should be paid enough by your employer to live
2. If you work 40 hours a week (or have a qualifying excuse) the government needs to ensure you have enough resources to live

My basic premise is this: working 40 hours a week should guarantee you the ability to live on your own. I don't care if you're 15 or not; your labor isn't inherently worth less than that of an 18 year old. $15 an hour is a way to get towards 1 since government welfare is apparently the literal devil.

Once all this automation is hacked one time then we won't hear about it as much. Do not believe this is a viable path for the future even though it seems logical.

This is the part where people just don't get it. Let's take a look at our welfare apparatus as an example. Of all the money we dedicate to welfare about 25% of the money maybe 30% reaches the people who actually need the help. The rest goes to pay all the salaries of the people who are in the poverty business which is a great way to make money. This increases taxes which then causes us to have less take-home money which then causes your 40-hour week wage to be less valuable in terms of cost of living. That means you need to make more per hour in order to live because of the high taxes you have to pay to ensure that there's enough money for this massive apparatus. this doesn't even get into the fact that we're running enormous deficits as it is and can't pay for all this. So by all means let's have more government involvement in our economy so that we can make sure people have enough to live on. I will never understand why we continue to want to make the dumbest among our population responsible for everything that goes on in our society. The people who serve in public office are mostly idiots and that has been proven over and over again.

How about we go in the opposite direction and then we can start to see wages rise? There will be more money for more people and employees can demand higher wages?

 

[scotchtiger]

I think one of two things should be true and I'm somewhat neutral on which to take.

1. If you work 40 hours a week, you should be paid enough by your employer to live
2. If you work 40 hours a week (or have a qualifying excuse) the government needs to ensure you have enough resources to live

My basic premise is this: working 40 hours a week should guarantee you the ability to live on your own. I don't care if you're 15 or not; your labor isn't inherently worth less than that of an 18 year old. $15 an hour is a way to get towards 1 since government welfare is apparently the literal devil.

Even though I disagree, let's assume we will go with this approach. Do you think employers will pay HS kids $15/hr to tear movie tickets or bag groceries? What do you do with the entry-level applicant at Wendy's, or even the polite HS kid at Chick-fil-a standing in the drive-thru line with an iPad? What about manufacturers who are already teetering on automation and global outsourcing decisions?

The cashier at Wendy's will be replaced by a touchscreen and the kid at CFA will be replaced by an app. The movie employee will be replaced by a QR scanner and gate. The grocery bagger will be - and already is - being replaced by self-checkout or apps that allow you to scan your groceries as you move through the store. Unnecessarily high wages for these easily replaceable roles will eliminate the opportunity for work.

Manufacturers will enact or accelerate plans to either outsource beyond the US or automate their process. Jobs gone.

How will unskilled people enter the workforce and grow? Who pays for the increased cost of goods produced by low skill employees now earning a forced $15/hr?

This probably won't affect me in any meaningful way, but it is going to really hurt low skill workers, the uneducated and young people.

 

[CUT93]

I think one of two things should be true and I'm somewhat neutral on which to take.

1. If you work 40 hours a week, you should be paid enough by your employer to live
2. If you work 40 hours a week (or have a qualifying excuse) the government needs to ensure you have enough resources to live

My basic premise is this: working 40 hours a week should guarantee you the ability to live on your own. I don't care if you're 15 or not; your labor isn't inherently worth less than that of an 18 year old. $15 an hour is a way to get towards 1 since government welfare is apparently the literal devil.

I could go along with this in some form if you make 60 hrs/wk. I think what you may find is there are a lot of people who are not willing to work.

 

[nytigerfan]

Two parents earning $12/hr working full-time is ~$50K per year. I assume you can eat on that... If you want to earn more, either make yourself more valuable or work more.

In my family, both parents work and we each work more than 40 hours per week. I'm not sure why we would set the bar lower for other families.

Do you count all the hours that you are posting on TI as work hours or leisure hours?

 

[scotchtiger]

Do you count all the hours that you are posting on TI as work hours or leisure hours?

 

[92TigerME]

I was surprised that he put that in there, but I wonder if it is more of a negotiation tactic, something that he can remove to get the republicans to go along with his stimulus package. I believe that the minimum wage should be raised, but I don't think it belongs in this bill.

The minimum wage creates greater unemployment. This is because the demand curve for labor slopes down.

Politicians understand this and there is no getting around it which is why in the past they have only raised it to keep up with inflation and allowed each increase to be phased in so that the effects of unemployment would not be noticed but they are. They come in increased productivity e.g. use of kiosks, reduced hours, labor to labor substitutions etc.

Increasing the MW to $15 would have noticeable unemployment. Pretty much every politician with exception of the nut cases in the Democrat party (AOC) know that. So if this goes thru, I'm sure there will be all sorts of conditions.

The typical left wing argument is that increasing the MW will increase spending and that will then lead to an increase in demand and demand for labor. This optimistic scenario completely ignores the direct effect of increasing the MW which is greater unemployment. Indeed, how can increasing unemployment lead to increase in spending, demand etc? It can't and it never has.

Another common left wing argument is.

If u can't pay $15 an hour to your employees, maybe u shouldn't own a business.

This stupid argument from an economic view should say

IF you can't earn $15/hr, then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to work.

Dems refuse to acknowledge the inverse relationship between price & quantity demand for labor. Thus ignoring the direct effect of increasing the MW. They assume everyone gets more spending money due to increase in demand. How does greater unemployment cause an increase in demand?

If the MW didn't exist, there would be more workers at McDonalds. Some would come in just to clean, others to cook, others to serve. The food would be fresher. The service would be faster. The restaurant would be larger. There is no telling how good it would be. We can only dream about it. There might even be girls that come out on roller skates to bring you food and that's all they do.

The MW means that more ppl are willing to work than demand for work. This means the employer can be more selective. He can replace slow workers with fast workers. Everyone works harder. Do you like working harder? I don't.

The MW is a burden for small business because they rely more heavily on unskilled labor as they build more capital. This reduces demand for skilled labor and as a result, skilled labor wage rates stagnate and don't increase proportionally with inflation.

The MW hurts small business most bc they rely on unskilled labor. IBM can afford to pay the janitor $20/hr. Subway can't

 

[firegiver]

Two parents earning $12/hr working full-time is ~$50K per year. I assume you can eat on that... If you want to earn more, either make yourself more valuable or work more.

In my family, both parents work and we each work more than 40 hours per week. I'm not sure why we would set the bar lower for other families.

Well in my town, for two kids it would cost about 18k a year for daycare. I know that cause I'm looking at the bill.

 

[ClemTigsCo]

The economic literature shows pretty conclusively that raising the minimum wage does not result in job losses or lead to significant inflation, but it does drive up wages among non-min wage workers

The Effect of Minimum Wages on Low-Wage Jobs*

Abstract. We estimate the effect of minimum wages on low-wage jobs using 138 prominent state-level minimum wage changes between 1979 and 2016 in the United

academic.oup.com

Minimum Wage Impacts along the New York-Pennsylvania Border - Liberty Street Economics

Bram, Karahan, and Moore gauge the effects of New York’s recent minimum-wage hikes by comparing employment and average earnings levels in low-wage sectors in New York-Pennsylvania border counties.

libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org

New Study: High Minimum Wages in Six Cities, Big Impact on Pay, No Employment Losses – Institute for Research on Labor and Employment

New research from the Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics is the first evaluation of local policies in Chicago, District of Columbia, Oakland, San Francisco,

irle.berkeley.edu

Does increasing the minimum wage lead to higher prices? | Research Highlights | Upjohn Institute

This working paper shows by using monthly price series that the pass-through effect is entirely concentrated on the month that the minimum wage change goes into effect, and is much smaller than what the canonical literature has found.

www.upjohn.org

Moreover, the min wage to $15 an hour would save taxpayers over $100 Billion a year federal in federal safety net payments.

it’s basically a transfer of wealth from big corporations to workers and taxpayers with very little downside

How the Low Minimum Wage Helps Rich Companies

Low wages benefit employers at the expense of both workers and taxpayers.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[92TigerME]

The economic literature shows pretty conclusively that raising the minimum wage does not result in job losses or lead to significant inflation, but it does drive up wages among non-min wage workers

The Effect of Minimum Wages on Low-Wage Jobs*

Abstract. We estimate the effect of minimum wages on low-wage jobs using 138 prominent state-level minimum wage changes between 1979 and 2016 in the United

academic.oup.com

Minimum Wage Impacts along the New York-Pennsylvania Border - Liberty Street Economics

Bram, Karahan, and Moore gauge the effects of New York’s recent minimum-wage hikes by comparing employment and average earnings levels in low-wage sectors in New York-Pennsylvania border counties.

libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org

New Study: High Minimum Wages in Six Cities, Big Impact on Pay, No Employment Losses – Institute for Research on Labor and Employment

New research from the Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics is the first evaluation of local policies in Chicago, District of Columbia, Oakland, San Francisco,

irle.berkeley.edu

Does increasing the minimum wage lead to higher prices? | Research Highlights | Upjohn Institute

This working paper shows by using monthly price series that the pass-through effect is entirely concentrated on the month that the minimum wage change goes into effect, and is much smaller than what the canonical literature has found.

www.upjohn.org

Moreover, the min wage to $15 an hour would save taxpayers over $100 Billion a year federal in federal safety net payments.

it’s basically a transfer of wealth from big corporations to workers and taxpayers with very little downside

How the Low Minimum Wage Helps Rich Companies

Low wages benefit employers at the expense of both workers and taxpayers.

www.theatlantic.com

This is hogwash as I explained in my post. Read it. I debunk all these stupid claims.

 

[scotchtiger]

Well in my town, for two kids it would cost about 18k a year for daycare. I know that cause I'm looking at the bill.

I do think pre K is something we need to think about. We spend ~$45K between 4K and a 9 month old with a nanny (our preschool starts at age 2).

I don’t know what the answer is, and obviously the minimum standard of care isn’t where we voluntarily choose to send our children, but it’s an issue.

 

[scotchtiger]

The economic literature shows pretty conclusively that raising the minimum wage does not result in job losses or lead to significant inflation, but it does drive up wages among non-min wage workers

The Effect of Minimum Wages on Low-Wage Jobs*

Abstract. We estimate the effect of minimum wages on low-wage jobs using 138 prominent state-level minimum wage changes between 1979 and 2016 in the United

academic.oup.com

Minimum Wage Impacts along the New York-Pennsylvania Border - Liberty Street Economics

Bram, Karahan, and Moore gauge the effects of New York’s recent minimum-wage hikes by comparing employment and average earnings levels in low-wage sectors in New York-Pennsylvania border counties.

libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org

New Study: High Minimum Wages in Six Cities, Big Impact on Pay, No Employment Losses – Institute for Research on Labor and Employment

New research from the Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics is the first evaluation of local policies in Chicago, District of Columbia, Oakland, San Francisco,

irle.berkeley.edu

Does increasing the minimum wage lead to higher prices? | Research Highlights | Upjohn Institute

This working paper shows by using monthly price series that the pass-through effect is entirely concentrated on the month that the minimum wage change goes into effect, and is much smaller than what the canonical literature has found.

www.upjohn.org

Moreover, the min wage to $15 an hour would save taxpayers over $100 Billion a year federal in federal safety net payments.

it’s basically a transfer of wealth from big corporations to workers and taxpayers with very little downside

How the Low Minimum Wage Helps Rich Companies

Low wages benefit employers at the expense of both workers and taxpayers.

www.theatlantic.com

Conceptually, I’m a fan of just about anything that reduces handouts. The entire concept of a grown adult, who does not have some mental or physical handicap, receiving money from the government for anything other than a short term hand up is somewhat absurd.

But I don’t think a study of Seattle really means much for a country-wide minimum wage policy. You can read my posts above for some logical thought on how this plays out in the real world.

Even if you wanted to lift the minimum wage, how do you equate 15 year old bubba jr sweeping and stocking shelves at the dollar general in bumfvck Mississippi with someone in your study (Seattle, DC, LA, Chicago, etc)?

Minimum wage isn’t the right mechanism, but if you insist on using it, I hope there’s a lot more thought and logic applied than this silly $15/hr blanket mandate.

 

[92TigerME]

Every Clemson Engineering Student that takes micro economics Aces the course and comes away understanding what the affects of a price floor are. Everyone else, doesn't know what a price floor is much less how a price floor is related to the minimum wage discussion so they resort to googling left wing op-editorials that support their cause and pound their chest when they find something they think makes sense.

The dumbest theory is that people will have more money to spend. So much so that they will go out and spend it and the effect will be that GDP will rise. So much so that demand for labor will rise. That is the demand curve will shift to the right. Thus, eliminating the new price floor created when they increased the MW and thus no overage of laborers.

In reality, the first thing that happens is that there is a reduction of laborers. This is a direct response to increasing the MW. Everything that the optimistic democrats say is an indirect response that are due to so many other economic factors and ignores the direct immediate response of reducing labor.

So again. I ask. How can there be an increase in spending, demand in the presence of higher unemployment? Increasing unemployment doesn't make things better. It makes it worse.

Therefore, increasing the MW is a terrible idea.

 

[jakefest]

Every Clemson Engineering Student that takes micro economics Aces the course and comes away understanding what the affects of a price floor are. Everyone else, doesn't know what a price floor is much less how a price floor is related to the minimum wage discussion so they resort to googling left wing op-editorials that support their cause and pound their chest when they find something they think makes sense.

The dumbest theory is that people will have more money to spend. So much so that they will go out and spend it and the effect will be that GDP will rise. So much so that demand for labor will rise. That is the demand curve will shift to the right. Thus, eliminating the new price floor created when they increased the MW and thus no overage of laborers.

In reality, the first thing that happens is that there is a reduction of laborers. This is a direct response to increasing the MW. Everything that the optimistic democrats say is an indirect response that are due to so many other economic factors and ignores the direct immediate response of reducing labor.

So again. I ask. How can there be an increase in spending, demand in the presence of higher unemployment? Increasing unemployment doesn't make things better. It makes it worse.

Therefore, increasing the MW is a terrible idea.

increasing MW when most firms can’t presently make payroll and likely won’t be able to anytime soon will do nothing but slow the recovery and job growth if not tip it over completely.

To propose that at a time when we are teetering on economic meltdown makes me think we are in for a rough few years

 

[scotchtiger]

increasing MW when most firms can’t presently make payroll and likely won’t be able to anytime soon will do nothing but slow the recovery and job growth if not tip it over completely.

To propose that at a time when we are teetering on economic meltdown makes me think we are in for a rough few years

I mean the good news is we are about to legalize 11M immigrants in conjunction with the $15 min wage. Shirley nothing can go wrong there.

 

[jroller]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

Not sure how old you are, but just a heads up that the $8/hr that you made in 1984 is equivalent to $20/hr today.

$8 in 1984 → 2024 | Inflation Calculator

The 2.80% inflation rate means $8 in 1984 is equivalent to $24.14 today. This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index published by the Department of Labor.

www.in2013dollars.com

 

[Trading Tiger]

I think one of two things should be true and I'm somewhat neutral on which to take.

1. If you work 40 hours a week, you should be paid enough by your employer to live
2. If you work 40 hours a week (or have a qualifying excuse) the government needs to ensure you have enough resources to live

My basic premise is this: working 40 hours a week should guarantee you the ability to live on your own. I don't care if you're 15 or not; your labor isn't inherently worth less than that of an 18 year old. $15 an hour is a way to get towards 1 since government welfare is apparently the literal devil.

"To live" is a very subjective term. You can absolutely live on minimum wage working 40 hrs/wk. What you can't do is provide for any children, but you shouldn't be having any kids if you work a minimum wage job in the first place. That shows that priorities are way out of whack. What you can't do is waste money on $150+ sneakers, again, priorities. What you can't do is...you get the picture.

When people have poor money management skills, the answer is education, not just to give them more money.

Give a man $50 and he'll eat for a week. Give a man $50 worth of books on financial management, and he'll eat for the rest of his life.

 

[scotchtiger]

Not sure how old you are, but just a heads up that the $8/hr that you made in 1984 is equivalent to $20/hr today.

$8 in 1984 → 2024 | Inflation Calculator

The 2.80% inflation rate means $8 in 1984 is equivalent to $24.14 today. This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index published by the Department of Labor.

www.in2013dollars.com

I’m 37, so the $5.10 I made in 1999 is equivalent to $7.97 today. Pretty close to current minimum wage in SC.

 

[TheValley91]

Looks like Joe is trying to bury this in the stimulus package. Also jacking up base pay for restaurant staff - as if restaurants have free cash right now. I'd love to hear from those on the left how you feel about this.


From CNN:

A $15 hourly minimum wage:

Biden is calling on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and to end the tipped minimum wage and the sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities.

Here's what's in Biden's $1.9 trillion economic rescue package

Bigger stimulus checks. More aid for the unemployed, the hungry and those facing eviction. Additional support for small businesses, states and local governments. Increased funding for vaccinations and testing.

www.cnn.com

I just don't understand paying a 15 year old $15/hr to tear movie ticket stubs, or bag groceries, or be the low man at a fast food joint.

I made $5.10 per hour bagging groceries at 15/16. I was excited to make $8/hr at a lumber yard - doing hard labor, operating a fork lift and driving a truck on deliveries. After a year, I earned a $0.25 raise to $8.25 along with my OSCHA fork lift certification.

This will be terribly disruptive to businesses at exactly the wrong time. It's also going to lead to layoffs, acceleration of automation and technology-driven job replacement. Many minimum wage workers will be replaced with tablets. Why pay someone with no skill $15 per hour? What value are they adding that is commensurate with that wage?

What am I supposed to tell my nanny? I just gave her a raise from $13 to $14 per hour two weeks ago. That's good money to hang at my house with a 9 month old. And now she's below minimum wage?

My question is how does this affect you and why do you care so much?

 

[scotchtiger]

My question is how does this affect you and why do you care so much?

Well I think it’s bad for small businesses, bad for the overall economy and will expand unemployment. Those things generally lead to a slowing economy, lower investment returns and the need for more taxes - all of which will hurt me.

But who knows - maybe the rising tide will lift all boats and we will actually reduce handout dependence like @ClemTigsCo says. I don’t believe it, but crazier things have happened. I think we can all agree that a grown adult depending on the government for stuff is a terrible thing.

 

[nytigerfan]

Well I think it’s bad for small businesses, bad for the overall economy and will expand unemployment. Those things generally lead to a slowing economy, lower investment returns and the need for more taxes - all of which will hurt me.

But who knows - maybe the rising tide will lift all boats and we will actually reduce handout dependence like @ClemTigsCo says. I don’t believe it, but crazier things have happened. I think we can all agree that a grown adult depending on the government for stuff is a terrible thing.

honestly I think you and @jakefest are cherry picking the potential bad data points while ignoring the potential positive ones. I have always believed that consumption is the most important metric that we need to improve. Take Trump’a buddy the my pillow guy. Is he better off if only 40% of the population can afford his pillows or if 80% of the population can afford his pillows? Will he have to pay employees more now? Yes but he will also have more customers. I have a ton of dental clients. Most of them share your views in minimum wage. But they also constantly complain about people not having money to afford their services.

we all depend on the government to some extent. Some more than others obviously. Farmers, coal miners, small businesses. Every decries government assistance until they need it.

 

[92TigerME]

honestly I think you and @jakefest are cherry picking the potential bad data points while ignoring the potential positive ones. I have always believed that consumption is the most important metric that we need to improve. Take Trump’a buddy the my pillow guy. Is he better off if only 40% of the population can afford his pillows or if 80% of the population can afford his pillows? Will he have to pay employees more now? Yes but he will also have more customers. I have a ton of dental clients. Most of them share your views in minimum wage. But they also constantly complain about people not having money to afford their services.

we all depend on the government to some extent. Some more than others obviously. Farmers, coal miners, small businesses. Every decries government assistance until they need it.

Here's where you are wrong.

You claim that consumption will generate growth. You can't get growth by laying people off.

You don't understand how dynamic systems work. Spending doesn't increase in your equation. When you close the governor valve to a main steam turbine, you get less flow to the turbine. Not more. Less. That is what increasing the MW does. It reduces employment by increasing productivity (e.g., more work with less laborers). You will have more dependency on government. Not less.

In your theory, nobody loses their job or hours. They all get more money. That is simply preposterous. This way of thinking is based on an immature foolishly wishful mindset. The same logic that we see in the engineering world called perpetual motion.

 

[scotchtiger]

honestly I think you and @jakefest are cherry picking the potential bad data points while ignoring the potential positive ones. I have always believed that consumption is the most important metric that we need to improve. Take Trump’a buddy the my pillow guy. Is he better off if only 40% of the population can afford his pillows or if 80% of the population can afford his pillows? Will he have to pay employees more now? Yes but he will also have more customers. I have a ton of dental clients. Most of them share your views in minimum wage. But they also constantly complain about people not having money to afford their services.

we all depend on the government to some extent. Some more than others obviously. Farmers, coal miners, small businesses. Every decries government assistance until they need it.

I can see that side. I just don't think there will be enough businesses willing or able to pay kids and completely unskilled workers $15/hr. Business will figure out how to get by without these people instead of just expanding the payroll. Do you not think that unemployment would rise with a $15 min wage?

Even if businesses do expand the payroll, cost of goods will have to follow and inflation of basic goods will hit the economically vulnerable hardest.

I also think a blanket federal wage is as dumb as the blanket unemployment supplement. $15/hr in bumfvck, MS is a lot different than $15/hr in NYC. If you are going to roll out such a policy, at least apply a little logic.

 

[92TigerME]

There is no point trying to explain the economics of minimum wage to liberals. They lack the fundamental understanding and thus cannot reason. They literally think we have no morals for simply explaining the way things are or will be economically.

 

[nytigerfan]

There is no point trying to explain the economics of minimum wage to liberals. They lack the fundamental understanding and thus cannot reason. They literally think we have no morals for simply explaining the way things are or will be economically.

adults are talking. Go away.