The potential to kill massively more exist with bombs that can be made by any teenager or wackjob. I had rather take my chance against a gun.
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Active shooter in Florida school.
- Thread starter Clemson81
- Start date
Sure. This is why federalism is so important. It allows the states to operate as laboratories for social policy. But for anyone on here to outright say that their idea is the best way, and the only way, is unsubstantiated opinion. The only way we will have resolution on this is to allow some states to pass gun control laws as they see fit. Allow other states to embrace expansive gun ownership rights, with severe criminal penalties for gun related crimes. Then we can compare results in 20 years and find what works best. Maybe both ways work, and left leaning states can do things their way, and conservative states can do things their own way. This is the way our democracy has operated since the beginning. I worry that the way this discussion is unfolding in this thread is the poison that is creating the horrendous political climate that exists in America today. It's not good. Everyone doesn't have to think the exact same way.
Semantics. The right did not explicitly exist in SCOTUS jursiprudence until 2008. Of course the notion of the right existed before this, but it is irrelevant as a binding precedent unless SCOTUS has held on the matter.
You are cherry picking data. You may be correct, but you've cherry picked 2 data points. The issue is more complex than that.
Ahhhhhh, the a Terrorist Watchlist. I figured this would come up.
You realize an individual can be placed on the watch list without their knowledge, without being given an opportunity to defend themselves or refute the allegations, with no knowledge of how long they’ll be on it, and no knowledge of what they have to do to get off it??
Think of the incredible power this would a vindictive politician. A suspension of rights with no means of defense. Luckily some congressmen brought this point up and that’s why there’s been no movement on this.
God almighty this is like a broken record. People jumping on people that just disagree that tougher gun laws would do any good. (It really won’t). But if you show any resistance to that idea you just get slammed while the person casting stones has no solution other than just banning all guns which is ridiculous.
Then you have people jumping all over people saying these murderers are evil and need more God in their life while saying that people have killed in the name of God for thousands of years. This isn’t the crusades. This isn’t the middle east. This is Florida. The kid is a drop out. Kids are different these days. They are weak and they need to be noticed one way or another. This is a culture problem. The guns are a means to an end. If they won’t get their hands on guns they will use homemade bombs. Like Amy said, evil finds a way. But make no mistake, it’s a culture problem. Kids treat other kids horribly these days and they don’t know how to handle it. “Kill Yourself” is thrown around like it means nothing when to someone else that’s unstable will take it seriously. There’s a lot wrong with the culture. Things should be done but it will take a lot more than looking at gun laws. A lot of people are completely ignorant thinking guns obtained legally are so easy to get.
Then you have people jumping all over people saying these murderers are evil and need more God in their life while saying that people have killed in the name of God for thousands of years. This isn’t the crusades. This isn’t the middle east. This is Florida. The kid is a drop out. Kids are different these days. They are weak and they need to be noticed one way or another. This is a culture problem. The guns are a means to an end. If they won’t get their hands on guns they will use homemade bombs. Like Amy said, evil finds a way. But make no mistake, it’s a culture problem. Kids treat other kids horribly these days and they don’t know how to handle it. “Kill Yourself” is thrown around like it means nothing when to someone else that’s unstable will take it seriously. There’s a lot wrong with the culture. Things should be done but it will take a lot more than looking at gun laws. A lot of people are completely ignorant thinking guns obtained legally are so easy to get.
I won't, because I'm not here to try to convince you that you are wrong. I'm trying to inject some reason and moderation into the discussion.
Just curious, Do you have God in your life each and every minute of your life that you fail to live up to God’s standards?
My point was that I don't want to get into a trivial argument about when the idea of the right arose, or how anyone interprets the 2nd Amendment. My premise from the beginning was that everyone has a strong personal opinion on what it means. The takeaway is that it wasn't part of our jurisprudence until recently, and no matter what anyone says, under the current doctrine, it is not an absolute right. But that doesn't mean that states have to pass any gun control laws if their citizenry is opposed to it.
The solution is simple:
Continue to annhilate ISIS.
Build that wall.
End illegal immigration. Deport those who are not legally in our country.
Put MORE guns in school. I want an armed guard in every school walking up and down the school with highly visible assault rifles and bullet proof vests.
Continue to annhilate ISIS.
Build that wall.
End illegal immigration. Deport those who are not legally in our country.
Put MORE guns in school. I want an armed guard in every school walking up and down the school with highly visible assault rifles and bullet proof vests.
I fail each and every day. Yes, I have God in my life all the time but I'm a sinner like all of us and I fall short of being the person I need to be every single day of my life. That being said..... as short as I fall... It would never enter my mind to inflict bodily harm, much less murder an innocent person. Nor would it any other God fearing Christian.
I'm interested if you have other examples. I've changed my view many times throughout life
Is that why it happens so often? Not trying to be obtuse, but a lot of schools have changed their pick up policies already to prevent tons of kids from sitting or standing outside to deter the using car as a weapon deal.
Just don’t like the “they will use anything” line of thinking when 99% are using guns in these slaughters.
Let’s just have an honest conversation about it. Any conversation pretending guns aren’t PART of the issue whether it’s too many of them or too many retards getting them easily isn’t being honest from the onset.
I am confused. What do those first three things you wrote have to do with this school shooting?
I think this may be the most practical. Just like a football game nowadays. Controlled entrances. Clear bags. Get rid of textbooks to eliminate the need for backpacks.
Standard operating procedure for any place that has like 500+ people.
Why the hell haven't we even tried this?????? Try something!
Yeah let's not have any laws at all. I don't think the average citizen would be on that watch list.
No matter what I show you, we would both have bias and find flaws in each others arguments. I don't think it is effective. I can look at the statistics from Chicago and D.C. and make arguments about why the handgun regulations were neither helpful nor harmful. You can look at them and show me how the incidence of violent crime spiked after handgun restrictions were introduced. But the reality is that both sides would involve a narrow, biased look at data that fails to account for all of the factors leading to crime. It is too complex of an issue to couch it in the terms of small data sets from particular loci. And all it will do is further inflame everyone on here.
How do cities or states really “control” guns if a gun owner can drive across state/city lines without having to be searched? In short, they can’t. That’s why gun restrictions have to be National in scope.
And while it is true there is a mental illness problem in the US, are there any statistics to show our problem is worse than other countries? And if not, shouldn’t gun deaths and mass murders be symmetrical too? What is the difference? Access to guns in the US.
You know what kills more people than guns? Illegal drug use. Yes overdose kills more people than guns. Illegal and more regulated. Worse domestic terror incidents in the US? Bombs and planes. Not guns. Sure I agree that guns should be more regulated but let’s not act like this is going to radically clean things ups. America has a much more familiar relationship to violence in many ways. More than many other developed countries. I believe in part because the US is getting to big and there are too many variables in a nation built as we are. Furthermore, I believe that if gun regulation prevents one mass shooting then it’s worth me waiting longer to get a gun. But what I don’t want to see is misinformation and vilification over guns.
Oh, I thought you actually had examples from other cities. If your examples are the same cities, you aren't changing my mind or anyone else! Lol
That is exactly what I mean when I say the issue is more complex than merely looking at one city's data. And for the record, like most on here, I am a gun owner. I am also not opposed to sensible laws regulating gun transactions. My belief, unfortunately, is that federal gun control is a nonstarter in the current political climate.
I just worry that the myriad of other factors get overlooked and the conversation derails when it turns into a hot button gun control/2nd Amendment argument. No one wants to talk about mental health, cultural, or socioeconomic factors, which probably contribute more to the violence of America than anything else. Which is sad, because we could probably reach a consensus on these things. Personally, I would have no issue with federal gun control laws. I know that no one is trying to take my hunting rifles and shotguns, and if I wished to purchase another, I would have no issues abiding by purchase regulations. It's just too contentious to seriously debate right now. Compromise will be the answer, or the states will have to experiment.
You’re not very bright. The shooter was inspired by Isis. We need to wipe them from the face of the earth. And make sure we never allow another one in the country.
There are thousands of cities you could choose as data points. It's a rabbit hole that I am not willing to go down, because like I said, I am not interested in changing your mind. I welcome our differences. I just think there are more important factors to the issue than gun control that are neglected. What's the point in yelling back and forth about something we won't agree on? Find a compromise. Or agree to disagree, let the states handle it, then compare results.
Where are you reading that? I just read Fox News article called “what we know about the shooter” and it said nothing about him being related to isis. Where are you getting your information?
Thousands of cities in the USA with strict gun control and positive results? Yeah, ok states rights guy.
Love the states rights theme you've got going here
Dude. Isis propaganda was all over his FB page. Wake up! Let’s face it. You just watch CNN!
No. There are thousands of municipalities representing a spectrum of laws, all with their own unique sets of circumstances and outcomes. To try to rigidly make everything fit into your ideology, based on a single factor, is myopic. Just because you want things your way doesn't mean every city or state in the country has to abide by your ideals.
The sarcasm may make you feel temporarily better, but it doesn't advance your argument or make you sound rational TBH.
My ideology? What is my idealology and why do you think I'm basing it on a single factor?
I don't know what it is, and that is why I hate for the conversation to stray into this territory. All I know is that you challenged me on the specific topic of gun control laws re: Chicago and DC with the purpose of illustrating these examples as representative of what is bad for America. You have returned to this single issue in every post. I can only assume that it is of singular importance to you. My point, which is what I have been trying to make this whole time, is that gun control plays a small role in violent crime, and states and cities are absolutely still permitted under the Constitution to legislate on sensible gun control policies, so long as they don't work an outright ban or restriction on ownership, either facially or as applied.
To frame the entire conversation on the increasing frequency of school shootings in terms of the 2nd Amendment is dishonest. You haven't introduced any ideas concerning economic status, education, unemployment, drug use, the decline of nuclear families, our society's glorification of violence, etc. These are all at least equally responsible for what we are seeing today as gun control. Can you accept that your ideas aren't representative of what will work for every community in the country? I accept that mine aren't, which is why I have been trying to push this conversation towards a middle ground. The my-way-or-the-highway rhetoric has been the status quo for message board discussions for years, but it does nothing to change anyone's mind. Politicians are seen as weak if they are willing to compromise. I think it is terrible for our civic health.
I just read this on AP. Where did @dpotter24 and @tigerpride2 get their information that this guy was ISIS? The only place a google search turns that up is on Alex Jones Info Wars. It tells me a lot about those two that they get their news from Alex Jones.
