God Bless Our Great Nation

[dpic73]

When Hillary was telling her audiences in public speaking engagements that the election was stolen from her before going on air to tell Biden that he shouldn't concede under any circumstances, not to mention her/others POTENTIAL involvement in the Russian collusion scandal/election interference, how can it NOT be both sides that need to admit they perpetuated that voter fraud/stolen election was plausible? Hell, even Pelosi accused Trump of cheating months before the election which is out there on the internet for you to see.

So I'll ask the question you know is coming.........why is it just Republicans that need to express belief in the system when the above is further proof that both sides have done irreparable harm to said system? Republicans aren't the first to challenge the Electoral college, that has happened multiple times by both parties.

There are lawsuits each year around voter registration, voter identification, voter suppression etc etc which all play out publicly. How does that exude confidence that in 2020, we still don't have what we think is a fair system and we need lawsuits to help a specific parties agenda each year? How are we so different by state? Voting in comparison, looks a great deal like our health care systems, all disparate and antiquated so when you really need a single version of the truth, effort becomes insurmountable.

I firmly believe in moral equivalency as it brings order to most things and gets opposing sides to sympathize with the other. It caters to the middle/majority and that is where we will all win. Don't confuse that with justification, I don't have any for the Capital incident just like I don't/didn't for what happened in most major cities much of last year. You either condemn them both or you condemn neither unfortunately and if you aren't firm in that, it makes it really hard to tell either side it won't be tolerated going forward. Me personally, the person that replaced the American flag with a Trump flag would have caught a round from my own weapon and i would have also shot his buddy for not talking him out of it. That said, I would have also shot the people hurling molotov cocktails all summer long. That is slightly off topic but I want you to understand how I think about these things.

I have been pretty deliberate in my condemnation of the far right and the far left which I would have hoped included extreme views and theories. I don't believe in Q, apologies if that hasn't come through as of yet.

Know this though, conspiracy theories are often used in foreign interests as a base/starting point for counter insurgency measures. The "theories" typically cater to a group that might have specific values over another and often serve as a rally point to form up a base. You know how I know that? Because the US government uses that methodology in most hearts and minds exercises where they have interest and or threat. You start with theory, you find your followers and then you drive your message through masses to reach the opposing side. Given where we are with the distrust of media and big tech, this is going to get worse before it gets better.

Here we go with the whataboutism that I was trying to move past. But since we always have to address the left every time we have a subject about Trump, I'll quickly address your whatabouts, because that narrative clearly needs to be qualified since you didn't do it:

• Hillary's suggestion that it was stolen did NOT mean she didn't believe the votes were real - big difference. She was just pointing out the obvious interference by James Comey, who announced a new email investigation a couple weeks before the election AND the non-stop influence of the Russian disinformation campaign. Again, she didn't dispute that the votes were REAL and she conceded the next day.
• When she told Biden not to concede, she only meant don't concede UNTIL all the absentee ballots had been counted, because she knew that based on the way the votes would be counted, it would appear that Donald was winning on election night, but that would change in the coming days when all the mail-in ballots were eventually counted. She was right to say that because Trump set up that corrupted scenario months before. She was basically calling out his game. She did NOT mean the actual votes would be fraudulent.

The fraud allegations pertaining to this election had nothing in common with the above and were gravely worse for our democracy and safety. So until run of the mill Republicans speak up and say they trust that the votes were real this election, we are suspicious of you. Polls show that 70% of Republicans believe this lie that the election was stolen. If you don't believe that say so! We need to hear it. That doesn't mean that we can't also look into improving voting procedures, but we need to know that you're not willfully aiding and abetting the lies of our enemies. The votes have repeatedly been proven to be legitimate, but you seem to be insisting that we need to go further, though we did everything right. Your side is the one that did wrong by an exponential amount, so please acknowledge that and say the votes are real and maybe we can find middle ground. Instead of calling for even more proof, prove that you know your President's lies are responsible for this mess, NOT US.

 

[yoshi121374]

I think one thing we could do would be either a national holiday for election day,or we could expand election day out over a week or so for people to vote as they can with work. That might make mail in less needed. We want more people to vote.

As a manager of people,it is really difficult to work around allowing people to go vote and still running our business.

 

[FLaw47]

Amazingly simple, right? So why do we need mass mail, ballot harvesting, etc? We should seek to minimize the variables. That's 101-level stuff to ensure accuracy with any process.

Show up
Show ID
Vote

Incredibly basic.

I don't know why showing up in person is necessary.

If you can come up with a way for everyone to get a voter ID that's free and an extremely minimal burden of time, I'm ok with IDs. The problem is that, even in the most will intentioned of circumstances, some of the documentation required is difficult to come by for the sorts of people without IDs and going to the DMV is famously time consuming. Even worse is that, in reality, these policies coincide quite a bit with the suspicious closing closings (and reduction of open hours) of DMVs in predominantly black areas.

As a note, I'm a grown ass man with a college degree and it still took me 5 trips to the DMV to get my license reprinted when I moved back to the US.

1. It was one of the Saturday's the DMV decided not to be open
2. I didn't have proper documentation
3. I failed my vision test
4. They printed the wrong license
5. They printed the right license

Some of that was undoubtedly within my control but very little of it needed to be as annoying as it was. Obtaining a voting ID can't approach that level of aggravation for it to be ok with me.

 

[scotchtiger]

Can i ask why we need to change voting laws and policies? Republicans have for decades wanted to make it harder and harder to vote, without actually proving voter fraud is rampant issue. Why do you fall for that narrative?
I mean I know why they want to make it harder to vote absentee and mail in, its so people with little kids, who can't take time off of work, will have a hard time voting because of all the inconveniences. Whilst white collar salary employees like myself can take the time I need to do my civic duty.
Study after study shows there is not rampant voter fraud. Are you suggesting, without evidence that the 2020 election was stolen, or fraudulent?
I'm getting some mixed messages here. I mean at least when @Ron Munson makes this argument about taking away absentee and voter id and mail in votes he acknowledges he's just a bigot and doesn't think it should be easy to vote.

I didn't suggest taking away absentee voting. I actually specifically mentioned it as something that should be part of the system. If you have little kids, request an absentee ballot and one will be sent to you. Drop it off in person while running errands or drop it in the mail. Super, super simple and non-controversial.

It's not about making it harder to vote. It's about streamlining the process, controlling variables and ensuring accuracy and efficiency.

 

[clemsontiger02]

I didn't suggest taking away absentee voting. I actually specifically mentioned it as something that should be part of the system. If you have little kids, request an absentee ballot and one will be sent to you. Drop it off in person while running errands or drop it in the mail. Super, super simple and non-controversial.

It's not about making it harder to vote. It's about streamlining the process, controlling variables and ensuring accuracy and efficiency.

Ok, some fair points. But what about states like Oregon who conduct elections entirely by mail? They have done it for years and have no problems or controversy.

 

[yoshi121374]

I didn't suggest taking away absentee voting. I actually specifically mentioned it as something that should be part of the system. If you have little kids, request an absentee ballot and one will be sent to you. Drop it off in person while running errands or drop it in the mail. Super, super simple and non-controversial.

It's not about making it harder to vote. It's about streamlining the process, controlling variables and ensuring accuracy and efficiency.

I agree with this as do most reasonable people. It's been nuts to see an attack on absentee and mail in ballots as some sister thing when they've been done for years in most states

 

[scotchtiger]

I don't know why showing up in person is necessary.

If you can come up with a way for everyone to get a voter ID that's free and an extremely minimal burden of time, I'm ok with IDs. The problem is that, even in the most will intentioned of circumstances, some of the documentation required is difficult to come by for the sorts of people without IDs and going to the DMV is famously time consuming. Even worse is that, in reality, these policies coincide quite a bit with the suspicious closing closings (and reduction of open hours) of DMVs in predominantly black areas.

As a note, I'm a grown ass man with a college degree and it still took me 5 trips to the DMV to get my license reprinted when I moved back to the US.

1. It was one of the Saturday's the DMV decided not to be open
2. I didn't have proper documentation
3. I failed my vision test
4. They printed the wrong license
5. They printed the right license

Some of that was undoubtedly within my control but very little of it needed to be as annoying as it was. Obtaining a voting ID can't approach that level of aggravation for it to be ok with me.

I agree we should make it easy. Clear instructions on documentation, express line for ID Card only requests, maybe even a mobile station in certain locations based on need/access. And an ID card wouldn't require a vision test.

From SCDMV on cost:

ID Card Costs

Original identification cards and renewals are free for people who are 17-years-old or older.

So cost is obviously not an obstacle here.

As for access to documentation, Vital Records is super easy to use. Two young kids here and have used it for copies of both of their birth certificates.

https://www.vitalrecordscertificates.com/authorization?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=10507314449&gclid=CjwKCAiAi_D_BRApEiwASslbJ0YuGNyMwVnoaXImrM5xauhxgsh3K8f6VmL6uWl_bQmNFAAfg5TFoBoCWRwQAvD_BwE

There's really no excuse.

 

[PawPride]

Amazingly simple, right? So why do we need mass mail, ballot harvesting, etc? We should seek to minimize the variables. That's 101-level stuff to ensure accuracy with any process.

Show up
Show ID
Vote

Incredibly basic.

because we should be making it easier for american citizens to vote and not harder. your anecdotal experiences about voting are nice and all, but there are cities across the country where that's not the case. also, not everyone is able to take time off of work to bus/taxi/drive/walk/whatever to a voting site. mail-in voting has been going on in this country for decades without a hiccup - if it's been implemented in certain states without issue, i see no reason why it can't be implemented in other states.

if you're dead-set on not allowing mail-in voting for whatever reason, then push for election day to be a federal holiday instead of presidents day or whatever. that will allow for most businesses to let their employees have the day off to go vote.

 

[purenonsense]

In the days following, we will be in shock, our country is going to be cleansed, buckle up and pop some popcorn

many officials heading to jail, Pelosi will be drunk the whole time.

fingers crossed honest Americans will not be injured

Which officials will be headed to jail ?

 

[firegiver]

I didn't suggest taking away absentee voting. I actually specifically mentioned it as something that should be part of the system. If you have little kids, request an absentee ballot and one will be sent to you. Drop it off in person while running errands or drop it in the mail. Super, super simple and non-controversial.

It's not about making it harder to vote. It's about streamlining the process, controlling variables and ensuring accuracy and efficiency.

I agree, having an ADDRESS to mail me my ballot is probably more secure than voting in person... however theres no rampant voter fraud to fix so.....
Things seem to be working fine to me. I disagree with the idea of the need here, theres no evidence supporting the need. Mostly, people say things about anecdotal evidence, but thats not how you arrive and good policy. These talking points are an issue anyway because they are a corner stone to Trump having the huge support group agreeing with him that the dems stole the election.

 

[scotchtiger]

because we should be making it easier for american citizens to vote and not harder. your anecdotal experiences about voting are nice and all, but there are cities across the country where that's not the case. also, not everyone is able to take time off of work to bus/taxi/drive/walk/whatever to a voting site. mail-in voting has been going on in this country for decades without a hiccup - if it's been implemented in certain states without issue, i see no reason why it can't be implemented in other states.

if you're dead-set on not allowing mail-in voting for whatever reason, then push for election day to be a federal holiday instead of presidents day or whatever. that will allow for most businesses to let their employees have the day off to go vote.

Please see above. I have repeatedly said that absentee voting - the process through which a person requests a ballot and one is sent to them, which they can then return by mail - should be allowed. On the other hand, we should eliminate mailing out unsolicited ballots as well as ballot harvesting. Back to controlling the variables.

I also agree with some holiday PTO for election day. Maybe 2-3 hours or so.

 

[dpic73]

Please see above. I have repeatedly said that absentee voting - the process through which a person requests a ballot and one is sent to them, which they can then return by mail - should be allowed. On the other hand, we should eliminate mailing out unsolicited ballots as well as ballot harvesting. Back to controlling the variables.

I also agree with some holiday PTO for election day. Maybe 2-3 hours or so.

That's perfectly reasonable.

 

[FLaw47]

I agree we should make it easy. Clear instructions on documentation, express line for ID Card only requests, maybe even a mobile station in certain locations based on need/access. And an ID card wouldn't require a vision test.

From SCDMV on cost:

ID Card Costs

Original identification cards and renewals are free for people who are 17-years-old or older.

So cost is obviously not an obstacle here.

As for access to documentation, Vital Records is super easy to use. Two young kids here and have used it for copies of both of their birth certificates.

https://www.vitalrecordscertificates.com/authorization?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=10507314449&gclid=CjwKCAiAi_D_BRApEiwASslbJ0YuGNyMwVnoaXImrM5xauhxgsh3K8f6VmL6uWl_bQmNFAAfg5TFoBoCWRwQAvD_BwE

There's really no excuse.

I mean, getting your birth certificate is not free. $27.50 before any additional copies.

If there was legislation that made Voting IDs mandatory that also expanded (and provided funding) DMV hours, opened them in more locations (or had some sort of viable alternative), and made all the required documents free I'd happily entertain the idea. I haven't seen a bill like that, though. And it's because these bills (as they are currently proposed) are actually to disenfranchise certain voters - not to beef up election security.

 

[jakefest]

Here we go with the whataboutism that I was trying to move past. But since we always have to address the left every time we have a subject about Trump, I'll quickly address your whatabouts, because that narrative clearly needs to be qualified since you didn't do it:

• Hillary's suggestion that it was stolen did NOT mean she didn't believe the votes were real - big difference. She was just pointing out the obvious interference by James Comey, who announced a new email investigation a couple weeks before the election AND the non-stop influence of the Russian disinformation campaign. Again, she didn't dispute that the votes were REAL and she conceded the next day.
• When she told Biden not to concede, she only meant don't concede UNTIL all the absentee ballots had been counted, because she knew that based on the way the votes would be counted, it would appear that Donald was winning on election night, but that would change in the coming days when all the mail-in ballots were eventually counted. She was right to say that because Trump set up that corrupted scenario months before. She was basically calling out his game. She did NOT mean the actual votes would be fraudulent.

The fraud allegations pertaining to this election had nothing in common with the above and were gravely worse for our democracy and safety. So until run of the mill Republicans speak up and say they trust that the votes were real this election, we are suspicious of you. Polls show that 70% of Republicans believe this lie that the election was stolen. If you don't believe that say so! We need to hear it. That doesn't mean that we can't also look into improving voting procedures, but we need to know that you're not willfully aiding and abetting the lies of our enemies. The votes have repeatedly been proven to be legitimate, but you seem to be insisting that we need to go further, though we did everything right. Your side is the one that did wrong by an exponential amount, so please acknowledge that and say the votes are real and maybe we can find middle ground. Instead of calling for even more proof, prove that you know your President's lies are responsible for this mess, NOT US.

You're asking me to kiss a ring and I'm not going to do that. The people spoke, I accept the results. Not sure what else you want me to say. The point I made was that maybe people would have accepted this sooner with more transparency.

This is why the country won't heal or get any closer together over the next 4 years. It's not enough that we are moving on and accepting that Biden will be president, you want us to admit our guilt and eat our own. You want a pound of flesh. You want me to call standup, good people the enemy because they don't know what to believe and I won't do that.

 

[dpic73]

You're asking me to kiss a ring and I'm not going to do that. The people spoke, I accept the results. Not sure what else you want me to say. The point I made was that maybe people would have accepted this sooner with more transparency.

This is why the country won't heal or get any closer together over the next 4 years. It's not enough that we are moving on and accepting that Biden will be president, you want us to admit our guilt and eat our own. You want a pound of flesh. You want me to call standup, good people the enemy because they don't know what to believe and I won't do that.

Honestly, I just wanted to know what you believe, more than what you accept. I'm not asking you to bow down or debase yourself, but I hope you understand it's going to be really difficult to get another Republican in office if we can't agree on the facts. The radical side of your party is the biggest problem, so until the majority of Republicans disassociate from them, this thing is stuck in neutral. For example, you profess moderate tendencies but you quickly like the posts of the more hateful right wingers on the board and you never challenge the TigerGrowls type posters. Scotch does so I can feel like a reasonable conversation can be had with him. With you, I can't really tell if you're friend or foe. Just sayin

 

[jakefest]

Honestly, I just wanted to know what you believe, more than what you accept. I'm not asking you to bow down or debase yourself, but I hope you understand it's going to be really difficult to get another Republican in office if we can't agree on the facts. The radical side of your party is the biggest problem, so until the majority of Republicans disassociate from them, this thing is stuck in neutral. For example, you profess moderate tendencies but you quickly like the posts of the more hateful right wingers on the board and you never challenge the TigerGrowls type posters. Scotch does so I can feel like a reasonable conversation can be had with him. With you, I can't really tell if you're friend or foe. Just sayin

I think I'm a friend to everyone though. Why would my political beliefs mean I'm either friend or foe? I do believe I have offered "military and clandestine" perspectives against some of the more "out there" posts which were challenging a theory though.

NyTigerFan and I have exchanged some back and forth but I still sent him a private message, wished him and his family a Merry Xmas and offered to buy him a beer in Manhattan. He didn't respond and maybe I should take a hint but I don't feel like a different perspective on politics should mean I have to make a choice between being friendly or shooting someone in the face. Maybe I'm just old school ........

 

[clemben]

I do think this has exposed some pretty ridiculous voting practices. I mean, random bags of paper ballots, subjective signature matching, mass mailings, ballot harvesting...

I hope we are able to produce some super common sense voting policies after this:

• Register
• Show up
• Show ID
• Vote
• Absentee process for remote
• Small early voting period with pre-registration

I voted here in Mount Pleasant, in person and on election day. It was super simple. The machine printed a paper copy of my ballot, which I walked to a scanner and inserted. My vote was electronically counted, but with a physical, auditable paper trail.

Hopefully the Republican controlled state legislatures will coordinate on a plan to make this common across the country.

Most states have this already pretty much. Not a bad list.

But why a short early voting period?

How about add this... federal holiday for election day. Federal voting id issued to all citizens with no fee.

Personally I am a bit of an originalist here and see the right to vote as clearly identified in the constitution. Not given if you have an id or if you prove something. You have that right regardless. One vote. But I can see the need for minimal checks to that right.

Also point out that any standardizing or reforms used to be objected to by Republicans because it would federalist elections. No national databases, for example. States rights used to be a conservative thing...😆.

One thing I do have a problem with is signature matching. Scribbling my signature at the dmv on some stupid machine shouldn't let some random partisan poll worker deny my right. That tech is sketchy to begin with...

 

[dpic73]

I think I'm a friend to everyone though. Why would my political beliefs mean I'm either friend or foe? I do believe I have offered "military and clandestine" perspectives against some of the more "out there" posts which were challenging a theory though.

NyTigerFan and I have exchanged some back and forth but I still sent him a private message, wished him and his family a Merry Xmas and offered to buy him a beer in Manhattan. He didn't respond and maybe I should take a hint but I don't feel like a different perspective on politics should mean I have to make a choice between being friendly or shooting someone in the face. Maybe I'm just old school ........

Maybe it's just me but after what we just experienced, I believe it would be helpful to know where you stand on the facts. It's no problem at all that you have different political views but we're talking bigger issues here. NVM, looks like we're stuck here.
For the record, you DM'ed me Merry Christmas and I did respond so I want to be friendly and believe in civility.

 

[yoshi121374]

I think I'm a friend to everyone though. Why would my political beliefs mean I'm either friend or foe? I do believe I have offered "military and clandestine" perspectives against some of the more "out there" posts which were challenging a theory though.

NyTigerFan and I have exchanged some back and forth but I still sent him a private message, wished him and his family a Merry Xmas and offered to buy him a beer in Manhattan. He didn't respond and maybe I should take a hint but I don't feel like a different perspective on politics should mean I have to make a choice between being friendly or shooting someone in the face. Maybe I'm just old school ........

I agree with this. I won't think any less of someone who holds different political beliefs than I do as long as they are well thought out and supported by facts, which you have always seemed to be.

I will also say,that I do agree that the republicans really need to practice some policing of their ranks to weed out some of the crazy. Its tough taking the party seriously when they allow the crazy not just a seat at the table,but give them the loudest voice and platform of their party.

 

[dpic73]

I agree with this. I won't think any less of someone who holds different political beliefs than I do as long as they are well thought out and supported by facts, which you have always seemed to be.

I will also say,that I do agree that the republicans really need to practice some policing of their ranks to weed out some of the crazy. Its tough taking the party seriously when they allow the crazy not just a seat at the table,but give them the loudest voice and platform of their party.

THIS

 

[jakefest]

Maybe it's just me but after what we just experienced, I believe it would be helpful to know where you stand on the facts. It's no problem at all that you have different political views but we're talking bigger issues here. NVM, looks like we're stuck here.
For the record, you DM'ed me Merry Christmas and I did respond so I want to be friendly and believe in civility.

Of course I DM'ed you merry Christmas, because I have respect for you and enjoy chatting with you. I don't treat you any differently than if you agree or disagree with me. Views change, policies change, presidents change but generally the value and respect you hold for other people shouldn't.

Your only takeaway should be this, if you called me tomorrow and said you or your family were being threatened by Q supporters, Ohio State fans or even central leaning conservatives, I'd literally ask you for an address and show up at your house prepared to do battle....... No questions asked.

 

[dpic73]

Of course I DM'ed you merry Christmas, because I have respect for you and enjoy chatting with you. I don't treat you any differently than if you agree or disagree with me. Views change, policies change, presidents change but generally the value and respect you hold for other people shouldn't.

Your only takeaway should be this, if you called me tomorrow and said you or your family were being threatened by Q supporters, Ohio State fans or even central leaning conservatives, I'd literally ask you for an address and show up at your house prepared to do battle....... No questions asked.

Haha, I believe that. Let me know if Antifa knocks on your door 😂

 

[Willence]

I agree with this. I won't think any less of someone who holds different political beliefs than I do as long as they are well thought out and supported by facts, which you have always seemed to be.

I will also say,that I do agree that the republicans really need to practice some policing of their ranks to weed out some of the crazy. Its tough taking the party seriously when they allow the crazy not just a seat at the table,but give them the loudest voice and platform of their party.

I thought this was an interesting post. If you look at the Republican platform from this year's convention it was entirely based on the rule of law and following our constitution. it was based on individual liberty and self-determination. those are directly in keeping with everything that is written and our United States Constitution and the declaration of independence.

Now if you review the platform of the Democratic party for their national convention this year it was almost entirely about oppressed groups, discrimination, victimhood and what the government is going to do to change this and protect people. It also dealt largely with how we need to change our way of doing things and directly runs counter to what is written in the United States Constitution. in short it's all about the power of government to create equity not equality. No where can you find our founding documents suggesting the need for an equitable outcome for all in our nation. That is clearly part of the platform of the Democratic party at this point.

I think you should reconsider your point of view and actually spend some time reading about what's going on. The reason that you think the loudest voices are the cuckoo people in the Republican party is because that's all the media will put out there. And let me tell you there's no shortage of cuckoo people in the Republican party but that is not the general consensus or the broad base. It's just what the left wants you to see so they can continue to justify their crazy agenda and stop you from even bothering to think about what's going on.

It is estimated between 10 and 20 million people took to the streets this summer to burn, loot and pillage respective areas of their cities. That would represent approximately 15 to 30% of the Democrat voting base that was out in the streets this summer participating in these activities. Many people were killed in the process and even more lives were ruined. After the RNC this year, many people were assaulted and attacked around the White House including elected officials and members of our government. No one batted an eye when it happened even though it was a very scary scene. I don't see any posts from folks like you about how any of this was unacceptable.

It's estimated between 40 and 50,000 people attended the Trump speech this past week. so let's just call all those people cuckoos which a lot of them didn't participate in the Capitol disaster but that represents a very small percentage of the people who voted for President Trump.

Now this is not scientific of course. it's just based on broad numbers and generalizations you can find pretty much anywhere. I just found it interesting that you said the fringes are taken over the Republican party when the facts bear out the exact opposite. There are complete idiots and stooges in the Republican party and I would love to see their voices further de-emphasized. But what I would love even more is to see people like you actually take a principled stand that goes in both directions and is completely consistent. That would be a victory for all of us.

I was driving while I used voice to text on this so forgive any glaring errors.

 

[reddrum1948]

Yes, many officials going to jail. Hopefully Trump will leave office and/or be removed for inciting a riot. His cabinet is fleeing the Titanic. I'm glad Trump conceded but it isn't enough.

Prosecution should come to anyone who stepped foot in the Capitol building--they all broke the law. Then once the new admin is in--clean house, clean out the swamp creatures that have infiltrated the govt.

Trump never conceded.

 

[yoshi121374]

I thought this was an interesting post. If you look at the Republican platform from this year's convention it was entirely based on the rule of law and following our constitution. it was based on individual liberty and self-determination. those are directly in keeping with everything that is written and our United States Constitution and the declaration of independence.

now if you review the platform of the democratic party for their national convention this year it was almost entirely about oppressed groups, discrimination, victimhood and what the government is going to do to change this and protect people. it also delt largely with how we need to change our way of doing things and directly runs counter to what is written in the United States Constitution. in short it's all about the power of government to create equity not equality.

I think you should reconsider your point of view and actually spend some time reading about what's going on. The reason that you think the loudest voices are the cuckoo people in the Republican party is because that's all the media will put out there. and let me tell you there's no shortage of cuckoo people in the Republican party but that is not the general consensus or the broad base.

It is estimated between 10 and 20 million people took to the streets this summer to burn loot and pillage respective areas of their cities. That would represent approximately 15 to 30% of the Democrat voting base that was out in the streets this summer participating in these activities.

It's estimated between 40 and 50,000 people attended the Trump speech this past week. so let's just call all those people cuckoos which a lot of them didn't participate in the capital disaster but that represents a very small percentage of the people who voted for President Trump.

No this is scientific of course. it's just based on broad numbers and generalizations you can find pretty much anywhere. I just found it interesting that you said the fringes are taken over the Republican party when the facts bear out the exact opposite. There are complete idiots and stooges in the Republican party and I would love to see their voices further de-emphasized. But what I would love even more is to see people like you actually take a principled stand that goes in both directions and is completely consistent. That would be a victory for all of us.

I was driving while I used voice to text on this so forgive any glaring errors.

I continue to mention that while democrats certainly have their share of crazies,they didn't elect them president. Republicans allowed a wackjob to take over their party for personals gain.

 

[Willence]

I continue to mention that while democrats certainly have their share of crazies,they didn't elect them president. Republicans allowed a wackjob to take over their party for personals gain.

What as Trump gained? Please list all of the things. I'm interested in hearing about them.

After this, he will have a hard time going anywhere. I would bet almost anything his wife will end up leaving him because of this circus. He's lost huge sums of money from his businesses. He is being completely canceled and erased from all of society. His family, who he seems to love very much, will have a hard time ever fitting in anywhere because of the insane levels of vitriol toward the Trump name. What's he gained?

 

[Willence]

I continue to mention that while democrats certainly have their share of crazies,they didn't elect them president. Republicans allowed a wackjob to take over their party for personals gain.

I know it's strange to quote a post twice. But I would also ask you this. Will you spend some time considering exactly what happened and why? What caused the cult of Trump to rise? I found it all very disturbing to be sure. But I also know given what's going on, it was entirely predictable. If things in this country don't change, I also predict it will be the least destructive, least violent expression of the frustrations that tens of millions of people have. One need look no further than the overreaction that's taking place now to see the path we've chosen.

You're a good hearted person. But to think that crazy folks aren't in charge of the Democrats is to question whether there is a Sun or if it's just a big lightbulb NASA put in space. You're just being blind to reality. I can't say why but I hope you'll ponder this. It's people like you who will have to save America.

 

[dpic73]

I thought this was an interesting post. If you look at the Republican platform from this year's convention it was entirely based on the rule of law and following our constitution. it was based on individual liberty and self-determination. those are directly in keeping with everything that is written and our United States Constitution and the declaration of independence.

Now if you review the platform of the Democratic party for their national convention this year it was almost entirely about oppressed groups, discrimination, victimhood and what the government is going to do to change this and protect people. It also dealt largely with how we need to change our way of doing things and directly runs counter to what is written in the United States Constitution. in short it's all about the power of government to create equity not equality. No where can you find our founding documents suggesting the need for an equitable outcome for all in our nation. That is clearly part of the platform of the Democratic party at this point.

I think you should reconsider your point of view and actually spend some time reading about what's going on. The reason that you think the loudest voices are the cuckoo people in the Republican party is because that's all the media will put out there. And let me tell you there's no shortage of cuckoo people in the Republican party but that is not the general consensus or the broad base. It's just what the left wants you to see so they can continue to justify their crazy agenda and stop you from even bothering to think about what's going on.

It is estimated between 10 and 20 million people took to the streets this summer to burn, loot and pillage respective areas of their cities. That would represent approximately 15 to 30% of the Democrat voting base that was out in the streets this summer participating in these activities. Many people were killed in the process and even more lives were ruined. After the RNC this year, many people were assaulted and attacked around the White House including elected officials and members of our government. No one batted an eye when it happened even though it was a very scary scene. I don't see any posts from folks like you about how any of this was unacceptable.

It's estimated between 40 and 50,000 people attended the Trump speech this past week. so let's just call all those people cuckoos which a lot of them didn't participate in the Capitol disaster but that represents a very small percentage of the people who voted for President Trump.

Now this is not scientific of course. it's just based on broad numbers and generalizations you can find pretty much anywhere. I just found it interesting that you said the fringes are taken over the Republican party when the facts bear out the exact opposite. There are complete idiots and stooges in the Republican party and I would love to see their voices further de-emphasized. But what I would love even more is to see people like you actually take a principled stand that goes in both directions and is completely consistent. That would be a victory for all of us.

I was driving while I used voice to text on this so forgive any glaring errors.

I would argue with the characterizations of the party platforms - the Republicans didn't even have a platform so their convention was a 4 day mis-leading commercial for Trump.

We DID take a principled stand on the protests this summer but AGAIN, those protests at least had underlying facts that fueled them, the insanity of this past week was based on LIES. We can't just call the people on site the cuckoos when 70% of the Republican party believe the election was stolen. A majority of Republicans aided and abetted that lie. Huge difference.

 

[yoshi121374]

I know it's strange to quote a post twice. But I would also ask you this. Will you spend some time considering exactly what happened and why? What caused the cult of Trump to rise? I found it all very disturbing to be sure. But I also know given what's going on, it was entirely predictable. If things in this country don't change, I also predict it will be the least destructive, least violent expression of the frustrations that tens of millions of people have. One need look no further than the overreaction that's taking place now to see the path we've chosen.

You're a good hearted person. But to think that crazy folks aren't in charge of the Democrats is to question whether there is a Sun or if it's just a big lightbulb NASA put in space. You're just being blind to reality. I can't say why but I hope you'll ponder this. It's people like you who will have to save America.

I totally agree both parties have work to do. I don't know that Trump has gained,but his goal is always to gain for himself. I truly believe he had no intention of winning the first election.

My hope is that we got a little glimpse last Wednesday or the danger of allowing this type of hatred and using it for political gain. I'm sure it's naive,but I really hope we as a nation can back away from that ledge a little bit.

 

[jakefest]

I would argue with the characterizations of the party platforms - the Republicans didn't even have a platform so their convention was a 4 day mis-leading commercial for Trump.

We DID take a principled stand on the protests this summer but AGAIN, those protests at least had underlying facts that fueled them, the insanity of this past week was based on LIES. We can't just call the people on site the cuckoos when 70% of the Republican party believe the election was stolen. A majority of Republicans aided and abetted that lie. Huge difference.

If Biden had lost, what do you think the the percentage of doubters would have been on the left? I know that is a massive "what if" statement but think about how the polls had Biden winning in a massive landslide, had he lost I can only think the dems would be thinking the same thing.

To my point on Hillary earlier, this is the article I was references from USA today. You can see how the message was coming from both sides, just at varying times.

'You can have the election stolen from you,' Hillary Clinton warns 2020 Democrats

"You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you," Hillary Clinton said Saturday.

www.usatoday.com

 

[jakefest]

I totally agree both parties have work to do. I don't know that Trump has gained,but his goal is always to gain for himself. I truly believe he had no intention of winning the first election.

My hope is that we got a little glimpse last Wednesday or the danger of allowing this type of hatred and using it for political gain. I'm sure it's naive,but I really hope we as a nation can back away from that ledge a little bit.

Trump might very well be Bankrupt with in a year of leaving office. PGA already pulling support for his golf courses and I imagine the leverage and usage of his hotels will also see dramatic decrease. He's going to see endless litigation and like Willence said, his wife is definitely leaving him.

 

[yoshi121374]

Trump might very well be Bankrupt with in a year of leaving office. PGA already pulling support for his golf courses and I imagine the leverage and usage of his hotels will also see dramatic decrease. He's going to see endless litigation and like Willence said, his wife is definitely leaving him.

I really wonder what he was thinking? He really had a unique opportunity and he just completely ruined it by not knowing when to shut the hell up. I really wonder why his children didn't try more to reign him in? He has cost them a ton of money, but even moreso, the Trump name,which was by far his most valuable asset has been tarnished forever.

 

[dpic73]

If Biden had lost, what do you think the the percentage of doubters would have been on the left? I know that is a massive "what if" statement but think about how the polls had Biden winning in a massive landslide, had he lost I can only think the dems would be thinking the same thing.

To my point on Hillary earlier, this is the article I was references from USA today. You can see how the message was coming from both sides, just at varying times.

'You can have the election stolen from you,' Hillary Clinton warns 2020 Democrats

"You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you," Hillary Clinton said Saturday.

www.usatoday.com

Clinton was predicted to win in a massive landslide and she conceded the next day, so there'a glimpse of what would have happened. I can also promise you that the Dems wouldn't call the election fraudulent if they didn't have facts to back it up.

Once again, Clinton clearly meant stolen by the spread of misinformation, NOT fraudulent votes.

Another whataboutism fail!


"Social media is still an incredible channel to communicate information that is untrue and defamatory about someone else."

Clinton said Americans need to "make sure that the election is not interfered with in that 'sweeping and systemic' way that Mueller found it was in the prior election" and how to "protect our candidates from that."

 

[Willence]

I would argue with the characterizations of the party platforms - the Republicans didn't even have a platform so their convention was a 4 day mis-leading commercial for Trump.

We DID take a principled stand on the protests this summer but AGAIN, those protests at least had underlying facts that fueled them, the insanity of this past week was based on LIES. We can't just call the people on site the cuckoos when 70% of the Republican party believe the election was stolen. A majority of Republicans aided and abetted that lie. Huge difference.

There was no principled stand. Very little was said and a lot of empowering messages were sent. Nothing was done and I'd love to hear about the underlying facts.

You say you like facts, so here are some for you. Several states directly circumvented their legislature in how they conducted the voting this time. We can argue that Covid called for different measures but the reality is, it was all built around trying to alter election results. Now I don't happen to believe the election was stolen. Trump ran a horrible campaign and he made this election about himself (which all things have to be with that guy) and that is a big no-no in politics. You make the election about the other person.

Did you know that a majority of Democrats thought the 2016 election was stolen? Can you please link me to the post you made calling those people nutbars for that view? The Democrats actually objected on the floor of Congress just as the Republicans were trying to do this week. No one said a word.

House Democrats fail to muster support to challenge Trump’s Electoral College win

A challenge by more than a dozen House Democrats to Donald Trump’s election on Friday collapsed when they failed to convince a single Democratic senator to join their protest.

www.politico.com

U.S. Congress certifies Trump's Electoral College victory

The U.S. Congress on Friday certified the Electoral College vote that gave Republican Donald Trump his victory in the contentious 2016 presidential election after a raucous half-hour joint session punctuated by Democratic challenges.

www.reuters.com

The Russians hacked that election and the proof was a fake dossier carried by all of the media as "fact" which was found to be paid for by the Clinton campaign and washed through our government via our Justice Department and illicitly granted FISA warrants. None of this is disputable. The moment Trump won it was all about #Resist. The investigated this President from the time he took office over something that was a totally false pretense. Did you say anything about that?

What about in 2000-2008 when the majority of Democrats viewed Bush as an "illegitimate" president? The same was said about Trump during his term. Stacy Abrams was introduced as the rightful governor of Georgia by Democrats at the DNC. There are many people who have called that election here illegitimate and stolen while in their next breath they fought for the integrity of elections in Georgia. They have literally played both sides and never been held accountable.

All I ever ask for is one standard. One consistent viewpoint that marks our activities regardless of outcome. The absence of that and the total hypocrisy we see in the media and with our government is why we have such vile and disgusting fringes to our parties. Both have been empowered by our ridiculous and partisan behavior. Want to see things get better? Stand on principle at all times and stop being such a damn hypocrite.

 

[dpic73]

The principled stand was it was all OK. Nothing was done and I'd love to hear about the underlying facts.

You say you liked facts, so here are some for you. Several states directly circumvented their legislature in how they conducted the voting this time. We can argue that Covid called for different measures but the reality is, it was all built around trying to alter election results. Now I don't happen to believe the election was stolen. Trump ran a horrible campaign and he made this election about himself (which all things have to be with that guy) and that is a big no-no in politics. You make the election about the other person.

Did you know that a majority of Democrats though the 2016 election was stolen? Can you please link me to the post you made calling those people nutbars for that view? The Democrats actually objected on the floor of Congress just as the Republicans were trying to do this week. No one said a word.

House Democrats fail to muster support to challenge Trump’s Electoral College win

A challenge by more than a dozen House Democrats to Donald Trump’s election on Friday collapsed when they failed to convince a single Democratic senator to join their protest.

www.politico.com

U.S. Congress certifies Trump's Electoral College victory

The U.S. Congress on Friday certified the Electoral College vote that gave Republican Donald Trump his victory in the contentious 2016 presidential election after a raucous half-hour joint session punctuated by Democratic challenges.

www.reuters.com

The Russians hacked that election and the proof was a fake dossier carried by all of the media as fact which was found to be paid for by the Clinton campaign and washed through our government via our Justice Department and illicitly granted FISA warrants. None of this is disputable. The moment Trump won it was all about #Resist. The investigated this President from the time he took office over something that was a totally false pretense. Did you say anything about that?

What about in 2000-2008 when the majority of Democrats viewed Bush as an "illegitimate" president? The same was said about Trump during his term. Stacy Abrams was introduced as the rightful governor of Georgia by Democrats at the DNC. There are many people who have called that election here illegitimate and stolen while in their next breath they fought for the integrity of elections in Georgia. They have literally played both sides and never been held accountable.

All I ever ask for is one standard. One consistent viewpoint that marks our activities regardless of outcome. The absence of that and the total hypocrisy we see in the media and with our government is why we have such vile and disgusting fringes to our parties. Both have been empowered by our ridiculous and partisan behavior. Want to see things get better? Stand on principle at all times and stop being such a damn hypocrite.

Hey man, I'll respond later but headed to the gym.

 

[TigerGrowls]

Will you though? The people behind Q will just move the goal posts again after Biden becomes president. You will be on here to passionately defend the new conspiracies. I guarantee it.

For the record, Q is not my thing mainly. My thing is the support of President Trump's policies and that will not stop no matter what happens. I checked out Q a few years back and it started making sense and caught my interest. Its not a huge time consumer for me. I have come out and admitted that I think its very possibly a real thing and there are a lot of legitimate Q proofs. Q called whats happening now for a fact and that cannot be denied. Q is just a component of whats going on, but the main heart of it. I am behind President Trump and his policies though and that will not stop. If he loses POTUS power though, then Q was either fake or failed and thats it. Q has not posted since December 8th anyway, but he left plenty of crumbs to put pieces together.

 

[TigerGrowls]

That's not how it works. You have to prove fraud, it's been proven to be legitimate bu multiple counts, bipartisan c



And I agree with many of these points even though I typically vote democrat. I am also college educated,successful in business, man if faith and family. People like us should be able to rationally debate policy and come to compromise.

If the republican party wants to win more national elections they need to be more like @scotchtiger and @jakefest and less like @TigerGrowls and @SconnyTiger25

I will be leaving the republican party and going independent unless its cleansed of rino's and under Trump's leadership. Alternatively, I would love to see a new party composed of Trump's core base....lets call it the Patriot Party.

 

[TigerGrowls]

Can't wait for your thoughts on the myriad of policies unified democratic control of government will lead to. Will be awesome.

If it comes to that happening, I will be providing any input that I want to at that time. I am sure you know that in general I am going to disagree with most of them. I am a proud America First conservative and believe that Americans can better spend their money than giving it to the govt to create huge wasteful programs that inevitably never work well.

 

[clemsontiger02]

Alternatively, I would love to see a new party composed of Trump's core base....lets call it the Patriot Party.

I can get behind this, as I'm a big proponent of a three party (or more) system.

This two party thing suuuuucks.

 

[SconnyTiger25]

I am certainly happy for the discourse. I’m glad to see the debate come back to semi civil. See Americans can get along