If it's not known, that would bother me if I was a member of NS. Without a doubt, it should be common knowledge for the church members.
Clemson and NewSpring
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Not sure if he's Jim Baker or Jim Jones, but he's obviously a tax ex. crook! "Remember there's a big difference in bending down and bending over" FZ
There is a lot we do in the community that doesn't get talked about. There have been other homes we have bought for people. There are countless members that we help with their power bills, rent, utilities that might be going through a hard time. We gave thousands of backpacks full of supplies to some of the lower income schools in SC.
We put 1000;s of pairs of shoes of kids feet at those same schools. I know because i helped put shoes on their feet. A lot of the kids would have the SAME shoes on from the previous Christmas. Each year they look forward to it because its the only shoes they get all year.
This is a little know fact but Perry has purchased cars for people in need out of his own many. He has given other families money out of his own pocket. I have had an inside view and I can again tell you that a lot more good goes on quietly behind the scenes than people realize.
I can tell you for a fact that these things happen! My wife is a teacher at one of these school in Anderson and she tells me all the stories of those kids and the conditions they live in...sadly if it weren't for NewSpring so many of those kids would never get anything new.
Now I'm not a PN fan or a NewSpring follower, I've been a few times and well it's just not for me. However I will say this for all you guys bashing him and the church...instead of bashing him why not pray for him? Because when it's all said and done he will be the one who has to stand before God and give an account of what he's done, good or bad.
I've read a lot of the posts on this thread, and would like to respond to some of the comments.
First, let me say that I am NOT a member at Newspring; I actually attend Redemption World Outreach in Greenville.
However, the fact is the Newspring is a blessed ministry that is brings THOUSANDS of people to Jesus.
As a Christian, whether you like Newspring or don't, they ARE getting results. If you are a Christian, and you don't like Newspring, perhaps that calls for examining your own beliefs in view of the Bible, and trying to understand why God is clearly blessing a ministry you don't like or don't understand.
First, a lot has been made on this thread of the financials of Newspring, and the amount they put back into the community. The first priority of the church is to win souls, which is the Great Commission. Newspring, some 6 months or so ago, won over 1500 souls to Christ in ONE DAY. Folks, that is the definition of fertile ground. As folks are won to Christ, they can then go out and give back to the community, and as Christians grow, I absolutely believe that they do that (as I have as I grow in my faith).
Some have mentioned the money that Perry makes (or other nationally known preachers). When I was younger in my faith, I would have had a problem with that also. No longer. Let's be clear: most of us on here don't mind doctors making good money, because they save lives and improve the quality and health of our lives. But what doctors do on this earth is purely temporary. When a pastor leads you to Jesus, you are saved FOREVER, and the quality of life is increased dramatically, in a way a doctor never could. People point to Jesus and say that we (Christians) should live in poverty like Him. But the scriptures are clear that Jesus took on poverty for the same reason He took on our sins - so we don't have to. In the Lord's Prayer, it says, "Your will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven...". It is God's will for you to live in a shack in heaven, or in a mansion? Jesus said, "I have prepared for you many mansions...". Poverty is NOT part of being a Christian; instead, BLESSING and PROVISION is part of being a Christian. Pastors who bring many to Christ SHOULD be richly blessed.
Concerning the preference for traditional churches versus contemporary, I will say this: Jesus IS completely contemporary to our lives that we live today! I have come to understand that the comfort level with traditional churches is based on what we have grown up with and how we view our relationship to God. Generally, traditional churches view God as a more distant, Almighty on a distant throne that we go begging to with our prays. But that is not the way Jesus portrayed our Father. He portrayed Him as an intimate, loving Daddy. Jesus called Him, and told the disciples to call Him, Abba; which means Daddy. The story of the Prodigal shows the redeemed son PARTYING with Daddy God. Churches like Newspring and Redemption World Outreach are much more (especially RWO) a PARTY feel, aren't they??? Why is it surprising that those churches are growing?
First, let me say that I am NOT a member at Newspring; I actually attend Redemption World Outreach in Greenville.
However, the fact is the Newspring is a blessed ministry that is brings THOUSANDS of people to Jesus.
As a Christian, whether you like Newspring or don't, they ARE getting results. If you are a Christian, and you don't like Newspring, perhaps that calls for examining your own beliefs in view of the Bible, and trying to understand why God is clearly blessing a ministry you don't like or don't understand.
First, a lot has been made on this thread of the financials of Newspring, and the amount they put back into the community. The first priority of the church is to win souls, which is the Great Commission. Newspring, some 6 months or so ago, won over 1500 souls to Christ in ONE DAY. Folks, that is the definition of fertile ground. As folks are won to Christ, they can then go out and give back to the community, and as Christians grow, I absolutely believe that they do that (as I have as I grow in my faith).
Some have mentioned the money that Perry makes (or other nationally known preachers). When I was younger in my faith, I would have had a problem with that also. No longer. Let's be clear: most of us on here don't mind doctors making good money, because they save lives and improve the quality and health of our lives. But what doctors do on this earth is purely temporary. When a pastor leads you to Jesus, you are saved FOREVER, and the quality of life is increased dramatically, in a way a doctor never could. People point to Jesus and say that we (Christians) should live in poverty like Him. But the scriptures are clear that Jesus took on poverty for the same reason He took on our sins - so we don't have to. In the Lord's Prayer, it says, "Your will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven...". It is God's will for you to live in a shack in heaven, or in a mansion? Jesus said, "I have prepared for you many mansions...". Poverty is NOT part of being a Christian; instead, BLESSING and PROVISION is part of being a Christian. Pastors who bring many to Christ SHOULD be richly blessed.
Concerning the preference for traditional churches versus contemporary, I will say this: Jesus IS completely contemporary to our lives that we live today! I have come to understand that the comfort level with traditional churches is based on what we have grown up with and how we view our relationship to God. Generally, traditional churches view God as a more distant, Almighty on a distant throne that we go begging to with our prays. But that is not the way Jesus portrayed our Father. He portrayed Him as an intimate, loving Daddy. Jesus called Him, and told the disciples to call Him, Abba; which means Daddy. The story of the Prodigal shows the redeemed son PARTYING with Daddy God. Churches like Newspring and Redemption World Outreach are much more (especially RWO) a PARTY feel, aren't they??? Why is it surprising that those churches are growing?
Abba means father which has a different connotation than daddy. More respectful and reverential. Also not sure I would agree that the prodigal son partied all night with his daddy God. His father killed the fatted calf and had a feast in honor of his son who had returned to him Nothing wrong with traditional worship and nothing wrong with party worship. To each his own..
This is where we differ in opinion. I can tell you with zero reservation, that people are pressured into returning, or continuing to give (inancial) offerings even if they do not attend. Some within the church have taken it upon themsleves to threaten folks who are trying to separate and even take those threats to the level of actively trying to damage "former" members income potential.
I personally watched a NS member work a room at a professional organization function and try and dissuade people from buying from a former NS member. When he got pushback from one person he replied, "He is paid a commission on everything he sales and is being grredy and not sharing that commission with the church. God is calling me to make sure everyone knows this and doesn't bless him with so much money so he will be humbled."
Now these actions were by PN himself but they were with one of the "chosen few"
This incident paired with our experience caused me to move to Charlotte and escape the Anderson "friends" we had made.
Sorry to hear that man and I have never been privied to that kind of information. You've definitely been affected by NS in a negative light, whether directly or indirectly, and therefore, have every right in the world to form/voice an opinion on NS and question what they're doing.
As I said in my second post, it's the people that know nothing about the church and have not been affected by it in any way, yet still maintain a certain hate, envy, skepticism level for it, that I do not agree with or understand.
In any case, as I also said in my second post, I do not really have a "side" in this argument, nor do I really care about NS or how it's run, so I shouldn't have joined into thread in the first place.
Again, I hate that situation happened to you and people you know, and please know that my original post was most definitely not directed towards you in any way (or anyone else who's been affected by NS in a good/bad way, or has genuine curiousity about the organization).
This post was edited on 4/17 7:55 AM by CMTiger15
I don't have a problem with these guys making money. They have created these huge sources of cash off of their churches and book sales. The problem I have is these churches have Tahoes, hummers, Mercedes, lexuses planes etc under their name. Don't believe me look it up. They are doing this to get out of the property taxes. They also always get a huge "housing allowance" (non taxable) and it's always increased vs their base salary. Most of the time the church provides a house. They are taught taxes or finance in seminary they know what they are doing. There are a lot of people that get into preaching for money and it's wrong IMO.
Is this Newspring specifically? Because it can be dangerous to paint all churches - even if you limit it to all "Nondenominational Charismatic" (a term used for churches like Newspring) with the same broad brush.
People think all pastors at churches like this are like Jim Baker/Faldwell/etc - but they aren't.
I am not a fan of these kind of churches simply because, for me, they get so darn big that it is hard to get to know anyone. But that is a personal preference. I love where I attend now (Utica Baptist). Great services, great people, and a staff that LIVES the word, not just talks about it.
Now, let me be clear and say that by saying that last statement about Utica's staff, I am not saying that Newspring's staff does not live the word. I have a friend who goes there who is a former pastor and he really likes it, so I think there must be something to it.
Just one point I would make. Do some research about the "Seeker sensitive " movement in America. This movement started with Willow Creek Church in the Chicago area. This is the type of church that NS is. The goal of these churches was to win people to Christ who had not been to church through familiar music, clothes, etc. the results have told the tale though. The people that they are "winning" are not new Christians, but people who are dissatisfied with their current church.
I have a big issue with any organization being tax-exempt and not releasing salary info. If there is nothing to hide, why hide it
I have a big issue with any organization being tax-exempt and not releasing salary info. If there is nothing to hide, why hide it
Every church does the "housing allowance" thing. I haven't looked at newspring property tax but have some others and that's where I saw the lavish cars and planes.
Stopped reading at Redemption World Outreach..........probably one of the more crooked churches in the Upstate. I get partying. Party all you want, but don't steal from your members so you can drive luxury cars, live in a mansion, etc....
Didn't the pastor's wife just go on a binge there and started hooking up with a bunch of random dude?
I think this is the heart of the matter. Most Christians that grew up in church and or have been on their journey a long time write off a lot of mega churches because they focus on throwing a wide net to get people in the door. However, once they have them, very few do a good job of moving them from entry level faith to a long term personal journey. That is understandable when your focus is on bringing in the unchurched. You can't focus on everything and excel.
This is also why many mainline churches are weak at bringing in the unchurched as they have historically grown organically by their members having kids and keeping them in the church.
I know plenty of folks that started out at a church like New Spring and over time moved to a more traditional church so that they could continue their journey. I think it is natural. It is also important to realize that most big mega-churches started out as plants from traditional churches.
As to the question about the cross, while many churches use language like they want to focus on the empty tomb, etc. The real reason is because they found traditional symbols put off non-believers they were trying to bring in. They wanted to create an environment that presented no roadblocks.
What we have today is a disjointed confederation where instead of working to help people continue on their faith journey we get caught up in worrying about how they came to start their faith journey. Mainline churches like I attend struggle to put together models to attract those ready to delve deeper and the mega-churches struggle to both focus on bringing in non-believers and help their members move beyond the early steps of their faith journey.
The worst thing that can happen is for all Christians to get in a fight with each other instead of figuring out how build bridges to connect Christians to the best place for them to continue their journey.
There are two reasons that keeps happening:
1) It's a Kia
2) You must keep putting it in your bed (otherwise it could not #### there). Cars don't belong in the bed.
This post was edited on 4/17 9:55 AM by CU Alumnus
Wow...this is borderline blasphemy. Jesus lived the way he did to show what was important, not so that we would never suffer. Jesus suffered so that WHEN we suffer we can take solace that He has been there. The mansions that Jesus spoke of is referring to eternity, heaven. Please don't misunderstand that. Jesus specifically speaks in the Bible about how following him is a struggle, like in his parable of the wide and narrow gates.
My "beef" with all of these "rich" pastors is it goes against everything the Christ they serve taught. Jesus preached to not store up treasures on earth. He told a rich man that wanted to become a disciple to sell everything he had and follow him.
"...go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."
Why would he say these things if he wanted us to be rich? The "blessings" he talks about, the "abundant blessings" have nothing to do with money, or any possessions.
"Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven..."
I'm not saying a Christian should live check to check, or that they shouldn't make a lot of money. I just don't see any reason someone who reads the Bible, believes in Jesus and what the Bible says of him, and believes his teachings should be living lavishly. Just doesn't correlate with what Jesus taught. I struggle with not giving away all "extra" money I have at the end of each month. There's always people or causes that need money, should I, as a Christian, not give every $ possible to help in anyway? IMO, the pastors that drive the nice cars, have the big houses, take all of the trips, etc, appear to fall in line more with the pharisees than Jesus, the disciples, John the baptist, Paul, etc.
I haven't read every comment... New Spring doesn't have a published budget with salary info? I can't imagine belonging to a church that didn't put all financial info out for everyone to see....
I have heard that several mega-church pastors sit on each other's boards... which seems odd to me. I believe the local church should be managed by its members.
However, there is no way I would feel comfortable with a church that isn't transparent with its finances. That blows my mind. Maybe I misinterpreted this... Just to be clear, the laity doesn't set the budget? And the budget is not available to the congregation?
Wow.
I've asked this VERY simple question several times here and like clockwork I get this robotic excuse about how many lives were saved.
Look, I don't doubt that NS has done some good for many people in the community but do any of you "owners" not question their financials? Is this just blind trust, instead? All churches and members need to hold one another accountable. How are you ensuring your dollars are managed in an effective manner, in line with how churches SHOULD operate?
This is what I find most surprising, though. Not one...NOT ONE person, with over 3600 views and 140 comments, could tell me anything about the inner workings of NS outside of some vague "well we put shoes on kids" and "we've saved a lot of souls". GIVE ME REAL NUMBERS! If you can't do that, you need to seriously question what the heck you're doing there because you're being taken advantage of, IMHO.
Any church that grows past a certain size should lose its tax exempt status. That tax loophole was not put into place to line rich pastor's pockets.
This...
1) Rent abandoned Walmart
2) Install low end light/sound system
3) Hire band
4) Use graphic design/marketing interns to create early 90's corporate marketing scheme
....
5) ?????
....
6) Profit.
Have not read most of this thread, so apologies if this has already been covered.
Just sat down and read the blog post, and it is enormously disturbing.
Question: Has there been a refutation/rebuttal to the allegations cited in this blog from Perry Noble or anyone else affiliated with New Spring? If so, someone please direct me to it. Thank you.
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Disturbing to say the least, especially the adoption story.
Larry, as I've said throughout this topic, I am genuinely fascinated by this church and yet no one really can tell me much about it. Very puzzling
I suspect the outcome with the Professor was settled out of court and he's probably unable to speak further about it. I would imagine Noble was instructed to do the same.
I hope no one who attends that church is offended by this, but what I read in that blog was sickening. My stomach is still turning.
I pray that stuff isn't true. I hope someone can present information that dispels it.
That is precisely where I am on that LW. I don't want to "judge" Newspring without hearing their side of the story but from his blog it seems pretty bad.
I would just call it internet BS except that the author signed his name to it and is a fairly well-known person. That does not make his accusations true but it does prevent me from just blowing them off.
It almost sounds like the Christian version of the mafia - no offense to anyone who's a member.
ive always thought if christians spent more time "behaving like jesus" rather than "spreading the word"
that our society would be better off
that our society would be better off
Yes, important that he signed his name to it. And also that it's still up.
If this stuff were not true it'd be a slam-dunk for a defamation/slander suit. First part of that process would be to send a cease-and-desist asking him to take it down. The fact it's still up would represent malice, or a willful disregard of the truth. They could sue his pants off with ease if these were falsehoods.
So... what I have learned that I did not know before:
1) NewSpring calls its members 'owners', but these owners do not set compensation nor even get a budget/expense report from the church. So far, no owner has explained why that is OK or why it doesn't bother them.
2) This blog that was linked mentions names, dates and times and has not been taken down. That tells me that at a minimum, no one at NewSpring disputes the timeline or the 'facts' as they are presented. That scares the heck out of me.
I hope both of those items are incorrect and someone can point me in the right direction to find the budget info and that the claims in the blog are false.
This post was edited on 4/17 12:15 PM by The89Tiger
1) NewSpring calls its members 'owners', but these owners do not set compensation nor even get a budget/expense report from the church. So far, no owner has explained why that is OK or why it doesn't bother them.
2) This blog that was linked mentions names, dates and times and has not been taken down. That tells me that at a minimum, no one at NewSpring disputes the timeline or the 'facts' as they are presented. That scares the heck out of me.
I hope both of those items are incorrect and someone can point me in the right direction to find the budget info and that the claims in the blog are false.
This post was edited on 4/17 12:15 PM by The89Tiger
Larry, I cannot speak to all of it, but it sounds like Ben Milstead pretty much confessed to all that he was accused of doing. It would be hard to believe that the writer would tell the truth about one particular person, but lie about all of the others. I have no idea either way.
One thing is for certain. If there was a parody account out there, regardless of who was running it, and it was doing what the writer said they were doing, anyone from ANY CHURCH, including Newspring, should be ashamed of themselves for following such trash.
One thing is for certain. If there was a parody account out there, regardless of who was running it, and it was doing what the writer said they were doing, anyone from ANY CHURCH, including Newspring, should be ashamed of themselves for following such trash.
