Clemson and NewSpring
- Thread starter SWUtigers
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Let's not add to my statement: I never said anything about partying all night with daddy God. I said the Father partied to celebrate the (saved) son. Don't make it sound like a drunkfest.
In fact, in Luke 15, Jesus tells three parables in succession in which he describes partying when someone is saved. The story of the prodigal son is the most telling of the three, because the redeemed son is contrasted with the "good" son, who saw himself serving Daddy. Daddy told the "good" son, essentially, that he needed to NOT have the heart of a servant, but of a son, and that all the riches of His house were already his without any works.
The Gospel of Grace is, in many ways, the opposite of the Law. The Law was holy, because it came from God, but it could never make you holy. The Law demands righteousness of man, which he can never achieve; under Grace, we are given righteousness as a gift because of Jesus' finished work. The Law demands of man; under Grace, God supplies.
The heart of God and what He wants in our relationship is also shown when David returned to Jerusalem with the Ark. You may remember, he entered the city stripping off most of his clothes and dancing to praise God. His wife, viewing David from a balcony above, was disgusted with David because of his lack of respect. The Bible says that she was struck barren from that very moment.
God wants the closest, most intimate, loving relationship with us; closer and sweeter than the best relationship you could ever have with the best earthly father.
I'm sorry, my friend; but you just don't know the facts.
After years of investigation by Federal and State law enforcement agencies, Ron Carpenter and RWOC had charges dropped or were found innocent of all charges.
RWOC was working with an out-of-state real estate developer who ran off with the money.
You really should investigate the facts before making accusations.
As for his wife, she had been through a horrible psychological trauma at a young age, which has affected her her entire life. She has been receiving physical and spiritual counseling to help her overcome this trauma. I have been married to a woman who has gone through similar trauma. Unless you are educated or have experience in this area, you have no idea how deep or how horrible the effects of such a thing can be.
So what is your point here? That because the pastor's wife has a deep emotional problem that the pastor is some kind of fake?
Where do people get such strange ideas that pastors and their families are perfect people that live perfect lives? I tend to believe that, because they are working for the Good Guy, they are probably more under attack than the rest of us.
It's Steven Furtick from Elevation in Charlotte. It's a sister church of Newspring. Douchebag just built a 10,000sq ft. Multi million dollar house in Charlotte. Oh and he also wears makeup. Just google him. There's a lot of great articles about him.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Let's not put words in my mouth. I never said we would never suffer. No where do you see that in my original note. In fact, I am sure that we will suffer MORE because now we work for the Good Guy, right?
Christ taught against making money your GOD ( I Timothy 6:10). But just because you make great money doesn't mean that money is your god. Jesus admonished the rich young man because money was his god; and (most people don't get this) the statement Jesus made about 'narrow is the gate and few are those who enter in' is absolutely true if you try to follow the Law (as the rich young man did). It is NOT, however, true if you follow the covenant of Grace.
It is never blasphemy to understand and teach God's Word. I will look up (when I have time) and post Paul's teaching on why Jesus lived a life of poverty. Paul (who was instructed by Jesus) was very, very clear, though: Jesus took on poverty for the same reason He took on our sins: so we don't have to.
One of the names of God is Jehovah Jirah (excuse the spelling), or the God who Provides. Jesus turned bread and fish into exceeding, abundant OVERFLOW twice; and caused the disciples to catch (almost) more fish than they could haul in.
Jesus said, "I came that you may have life, and have it ABUNDANTLY." He didn't say He came so we could barely scrape by.
Doesn't appear to me that God wants us to just barely get by. He is a God who wants to bless us with exceeding, abundant overflow, physically & financially.
If you don't want what God wants to bless you with, just let me know your name, and I'll be sure to tell Daddy that He can give me what He had tabbed for you, too. I'll be glad to take what you don't want.
Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.Originally posted by OrangeForever:
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934
So he's a douchebag because he built a big house? He's written several best selling books--if he wants to enjoy some of they money from them, good for him. People have this idea that all pastors should be broke--that's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with having money--the people that complain the loudest are usually the people that don't have any. As long as he's building the house with his money and not the church's money, I have no problem with it. Show me some proof of wrongdoing and I'll sing a different tune. I know Steven and his family pretty well and he's not the villain people try to make him out to be.
It would be easy to refute the criticism if NewSpring and Elevation published their budgets like a majority of churches do...
Nseverett, I agree people people should enjoy their success but I'd like to know how much money he's being PAID by the CHURCH. I couldn't care less if he made his wealth through his book sales, though. Good for him, actually! I am concerned that he AND Noble are exploiting the weak for financial gain.
If you can PROVE otherwise, I'll rescind my last statement.
I am a Christ Follower and like the work Perry, Andy Stanley, Matt Chandler, etc do.....but they should release their salaries......I believe Billy Graham used to release all of his tax returns.
It was settled out of court. I don't know if the allegations are true or if Perry had any knowledge of what exactly was going on (though I doubt it). The guy came after Perry specifically instead of the church and Perry settled. I don't think that's an admission of guilt (though some will interpret it as such) as much as it was him just wanting to put the whole thing behind him. If it's true, I definitely have a problem with it, but I have a hard time believing all of those allegations. The guy sounds like he just has an axe to grind because he doesn't like the church. Again, I'm not saying his allegations are fabricated, but I'm definitely not saying they're completely truthful either.
The problem is that the church does not divulge what his his money and what is the church's money.
I did. We only overlapped for one year, but we were involved in some of the same ministries so I got to know him some. I know his family very well and have been on several mission trips with both his father-in-law and brother-in-law. I didn't play sports in college, except for intramurals haha. I had a lot of friends that were athletes though. I started in 2002 and went for three years before taking a break (long story) and then went back, changed my major and graduated in 2010.
From some articles I am reading over lunch it seems like there is some gray area between money from the church and money from books including the church paying for marketing of his book.
I am a teacher and a head football coach......my TDC is 501c3 and we provide the books to anyone who asks. My teaching salary is public record.....I do not get anywhere close to funds raised by the TD Club. I have not accepted money from the TD Club unless the exact amount is given to my asst coaches (usually a few hundred dollars for weight room work, etc).
If you are in a public position (which he is to an exponential degree moreso than me) you must be transparent or you must accept that many will view you with a cynical eye.
The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.
No I can't. And do you know why? Because they won't release their detailed financials! If they have, please correct me and provide a link.
Honestly, I would love to be proven wrong here. I just don't think I am. We've seen these mega churches exploit their members (or whatever) over and over again. They are bringing in $50 million dollars ANNUALLY and only 9% is going to mission work? That seems grossly lopsided, to me.
Explain why there isn't a line item budget? That is my question. I have never been a member of a church or really known of one where the budget wasn't an open book.
Add to that evidently a compensation type committee made up of other pastors is involved with setting salaries and you have to admit there is the appearance of impropriety that could easily be solved by transparency.
Those line items are so vague, you can't tell what they encompass. Campus launches/upgrades could be all capital expense or could be a lot of marketing expense. Operations could be all kinds of things including salaries not in the 'staffing' bucket depending on how it is defined.
You can prove he is exploiting people by setting up fake baptisms. It's just wrong.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
For what it's worth, Perry often talks about being treated for depression and contemplating suicide over a period of 2-3 years which started right after the timeline of that this incident was reported. I heard about this a few years back too. About a year ago I actually went through a 5 week interview process for a job in IT at NewSpring and there was an extremely thorough vetting process involved.
I was dramatically overqualified for the position they had available. They were looking for 3 years experience in one area and had other skills that were bonuses. I had 12 years experience in the main area and near expert experience in the "bonus" areas. On paper, I was a slam dunk and I knew it because it's also a very hard field to find people to fill positions. But they now consider literally every position at NewSpring to be a ministry level position that reflects publicly on the church and based on my interview, I was not ready for full time ministry yet. They were right too because I wasn't. They told me that I could feel free to reapply later on too.
Now I tell you that to say this. I know that blog story happened years ago and I know that details on exactly what happened from all sides are not out there, other than to say that we're only getting the one side via that blog. What I do know is that it will never, ever happen again and that's a testament to their hiring process. They have people working there that I've known for years and if there was even the slightest hint that NewSpring wasn't everything it says it is behind closed doors, they would not be there. These are people that I would trust with just about anything and who's character I consider nearly beyond reproach.
As president of a HS Booster Club that is a 501c3, I also find it humorous that every dollar we spend is available to be inspected and our tax returns and other reporting are basically public record. However, an organization that raises 50 million dollars is exempt from any kind of transparency requirements.
Wait, don't the NewSpring employees specifically mentioned in that blog post remain with New Spring?
Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:
Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.Originally posted by OrangeForever:
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934
Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.Originally posted by Mac Tiger:
Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:
Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.Originally posted by OrangeForever:
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934
But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.
This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers
Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.Originally posted by SWUtigers:
Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.Originally posted by Mac Tiger:
Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:
Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.Originally posted by OrangeForever:
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934
But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.
This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers
If they are tax-exempt as most churches are, I can't think of a good reason why they shouldn't be transparent -- particularly the huge churches that occupy gobs of real estate.Originally posted by Mac Tiger:
Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.Originally posted by SWUtigers:
Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.Originally posted by Mac Tiger:
Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:
Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.Originally posted by OrangeForever:
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934
But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.
This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers
So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.
First... the list on page 3 was for another church, not NewSpring, and was given as an example of how most churches are open with the information we are discussing.Originally posted by Mac Tiger:
Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:
Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.Originally posted by OrangeForever:
Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:
that is on the board of a church run by this crook:
Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934
Second, when an organization is given tax exempt status it should have to report this info. Any 501c3 has to make their books available. even if it raises only a few thousand dollars for a specific purpose. Evidently, churches are not required to do this but that doesn't mean they are not morally obligated to.
Also, it appears NewSpring calls its members 'owners' but doesn't treat them as such.
I guarantee you they are employees from a legal standpoint. I bet they are covered under either an employment contract or are just salaried employees. Either way, when you get tax free money, you should have to show where it goes.
Also, Elevation Church was a church plant from the Baptist State Convention of NC. That guy didn't 'found it'. He had help.
