Clemson and NewSpring

[SWUtigers]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.

But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.

This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers

Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.

Sorry, poor choice of words regarding their status. I'll grant you that.

To the bold portion, I have asked numerous times to at least shine some light on the subject and all I get is crickets. If it's easy to obtain, then it should be easy to find on the internet, right?

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by Larry_Williams:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.

But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.

This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers

Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.

If they are tax-exempt as most churches are, I can't think of a good reason why they shouldn't be transparent -- particularly the huge churches that occupy gobs of real estate.

Larry, I agree. I just haven't seen credible proof in this thread that convinces me that they don't make that information available to the members of the corporation per request. There must be transparency with the, what is the term, "owners".

 

[Larry_Williams]

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.

But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.

This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers

Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.

Sorry, poor choice of words regarding their status. I'll grant you that.

To the bold portion, I have asked numerous times to at least shine some light on the subject and all I get is crickets. If it's easy to obtain, then it should be easy to find on the internet, right?

If they don't make their records available, I'm guessing their tax returns are accessible if they are indeed tax-exempt.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

 

[TheClemsonJaguar]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

There is a difference, but that doesn't mean they are accountable to me or you. They are accountable to the people who are members of the corporation and who have the rights within the corporation as the articles dictate.

Yes, it does. We are taxpayers. Most likely our employers are taxpayers. All business entities that received revenue are taxpayers. Tax exemption is a lawful exemption that permits them to avoid taxes they would otherwise pay.

 

[SWUtigers]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by Larry_Williams:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.

But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.

This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers

Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.

If they are tax-exempt as most churches are, I can't think of a good reason why they shouldn't be transparent -- particularly the huge churches that occupy gobs of real estate.

Larry, I agree. I just haven't seen credible proof in this thread that convinces me that they don't make that information available to the members of the corporation per request. There must be transparency with the, what is the term, "owners".

That's because it's no where to be found on the internet...as far as I have found. But it was said that being called "owners" instead of "members" is more of an accountability issue than anything else, if I'm not mistaken. It's really not that big of a deal to me, though.

 

[Larry_Williams]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

Agree. If they are tax-exempt then their books should be open just like, say, Clemson's books are open for all to see how much is made by professors, coaches, ADs, etc.

 

[TheClemsonJaguar]

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

I'd argue that it only makes sense that NS does not pay taxes if the government can verify where the money goes, something that cannot happen unless the books are made public.

 

[MillerHighLife21]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

That's fair. I've just never asked outside of the budget report website that they put up every year. I know the IRS has to sit down with them every year, on site, to ensure that everything is being handled properly. I would also say their returns have to be available via FOI too. But again, I've never asked.

 

[MillerHighLife21]

Originally posted by Larry_Williams:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

Agree. If they are tax-exempt then their books should be open just like, say, Clemson's books are open for all to see how much is made by professors, coaches, ADs, etc.

With Clemson isn't there a line where only salaries above a certain amount are public?

 

[TheClemsonJaguar]

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:
With Clemson isn't there a line where only salaries above a certain amount are public?

Probably is. One of the primary rules of a 501c3 is that the organization cannot be established to benefit individual interests. That is why Noble and Furtick's salaries are important.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

First... the list on page 3 was for another church, not NewSpring, and was given as an example of how most churches are open with the information we are discussing.

Second, when an organization is given tax exempt status it should have to report this info. Any 501c3 has to make their books available. even if it raises only a few thousand dollars for a specific purpose. Evidently, churches are not required to do this but that doesn't mean they are not morally obligated to.

Also, it appears NewSpring calls its members 'owners' but doesn't treat them as such.

I guarantee you they are employees from a legal standpoint. I bet they are covered under either an employment contract or are just salaried employees. Either way, when you get tax free money, you should have to show where it goes.

Also, Elevation Church was a church plant from the Baptist State Convention of NC. That guy didn't 'found it'. He had help.

Ok, thanks for the clarity, I misread the page 3 example.

You're right they should have to report the information. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but to who? Non-members who are not contributors? They are morally obligated, but I have no issue with this information being made available on a per request basis.

As to the members being "owners" and such and how they're treated and appearances, seems like a lot of conclusions are being drawn based on rumor.

Not necessarily. Many pastors are considered self-employed and end up paying more taxes on their taxable income than they would otherwise to avoid the "employee" mentality.

Just because he had some assistance doesn't mean he is not the founder. He is and will always be the founding pastor. That is like saying a businessman who receives a grant that helped him start his business is not the founder. You're reaching on that one.

 

[CU1TruTiger4Life]

Originally posted by appalachiatiger:
ive always thought if christians spent more time "behaving like jesus" rather than "spreading the word"

that our society would be better off

These are one in the same.

 

[JP09191978]

Originally posted by Larry_Williams:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Larry_Williams:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:
Although I thought the atheist/agnostic article about Clemson is nothing to see, I can't help but wonder how influential NewSpring is to the Program. Anyone care to elaborate?

Also, what is it about this "church" that makes people get so defensive? I have close friends that work and/or attend services and they are borderline militant about this place. This blog, in particular, makes me wonder about the "culture" being created in mega churches.

Perhaps I just don't understand because I've never set foot in there but I wonder what some here have to say.

Have not read most of this thread, so apologies if this has already been covered.

Just sat down and read the blog post, and it is enormously disturbing.

Question: Has there been a refutation/rebuttal to the allegations cited in this blog from Perry Noble or anyone else affiliated with New Spring? If so, someone please direct me to it. Thank you.

Disturbing to say the least, especially the adoption story.

Larry, as I've said throughout this topic, I am genuinely fascinated by this church and yet no one really can tell me much about it. Very puzzling

I suspect the outcome with the Professor was settled out of court and he's probably unable to speak further about it. I would imagine Noble was instructed to do the same.

I hope no one who attends that church is offended by this, but what I read in that blog was sickening. My stomach is still turning.

I pray that stuff isn't true. I hope someone can present information that dispels it.

Larry:
I have been at NewSpring since day 1 and know all of the people involved in this. There is SO much more to the story than what you hear from James Duncan. People spend a lot of time looking at Noble. Someone should dig into James Duncan. There is a lot more going on with his motives than the public knows. He is a smart man....he got money of the ordeal and is set financially. Newspring isn't talking about their side and they won't respond to his blog. So he gets to sit back and say whatever and knows they won't respond.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

That's fair. I've just never asked outside of the budget report website that they put up every year. I know the IRS has to sit down with them every year, on site, to ensure that everything is being handled properly. I would also say their returns have to be available via FOI too. But again, I've never asked.

FOI only applies to public institutions. 501c3 organizations are transparent because the tax code requires them to be. Churches are exempt from filing the form 990 that most tax exempt organizations have to file. That is why they 'can' keep these things hidden.

I just have yet to see an argument as to why they would keep it secret. That leads to conjecture. My assumptions are that either the church thinks that it would be bad publicity to show how much they are paying. I know at our church, where the budget is published and all salaries are visible, we do get discussions about what we pay for certain jobs. That is a good thing. Openness allows for discussion and validation.

I have yet to see anyone offer a reason for not disclosing their detailed budget, except that they are not required to.

 

[lswon812]

Originally posted by FreeSC:

Wow...this is borderline blasphemy. Jesus lived the way he did to show what was important, not so that we would never suffer. Jesus suffered so that WHEN we suffer we can take solace that He has been there. The mansions that Jesus spoke of is referring to eternity, heaven. Please don't misunderstand that. Jesus specifically speaks in the Bible about how following him is a struggle, like in his parable of the wide and narrow gates.

My "beef" with all of these "rich" pastors is it goes against everything the Christ they serve taught. Jesus preached to not store up treasures on earth. He told a rich man that wanted to become a disciple to sell everything he had and follow him.

"...go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."

Why would he say these things if he wanted us to be rich? The "blessings" he talks about, the "abundant blessings" have nothing to do with money, or any possessions.

"Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven..."

I'm not saying a Christian should live check to check, or that they shouldn't make a lot of money. I just don't see any reason someone who reads the Bible, believes in Jesus and what the Bible says of him, and believes his teachings should be living lavishly. Just doesn't correlate with what Jesus taught. I struggle with not giving away all "extra" money I have at the end of each month. There's always people or causes that need money, should I, as a Christian, not give every $ possible to help in anyway? IMO, the pastors that drive the nice cars, have the big houses, take all of the trips, etc, appear to fall in line more with the pharisees than Jesus, the disciples, John the baptist, Paul, etc.

Let's not put words in my mouth. I never said we would never suffer. No where do you see that in my original note. In fact, I am sure that we will suffer MORE because now we work for the Good Guy, right?

Christ taught against making money your GOD ( I Timothy 6:10). But just because you make great money doesn't mean that money is your god. Jesus admonished the rich young man because money was his god; and (most people don't get this) the statement Jesus made about 'narrow is the gate and few are those who enter in' is absolutely true if you try to follow the Law (as the rich young man did). It is NOT, however, true if you follow the covenant of Grace.

It is never blasphemy to understand and teach God's Word. I will look up (when I have time) and post Paul's teaching on why Jesus lived a life of poverty. Paul (who was instructed by Jesus) was very, very clear, though: Jesus took on poverty for the same reason He took on our sins: so we don't have to.

One of the names of God is Jehovah Jirah (excuse the spelling), or the God who Provides. Jesus turned bread and fish into exceeding, abundant OVERFLOW twice; and caused the disciples to catch (almost) more fish than they could haul in.
Jesus said, "I came that you may have life, and have it ABUNDANTLY." He didn't say He came so we could barely scrape by.

Doesn't appear to me that God wants us to just barely get by. He is a God who wants to bless us with exceeding, abundant overflow, physically & financially.

If you don't want what God wants to bless you with, just let me know your name, and I'll be sure to tell Daddy that He can give me what He had tabbed for you, too. I'll be glad to take what you don't want.

Here's where the issue lies. Who is talking about poverty? I'm talking about living lavishly. No offense, but IMO, people who think blessings are financial have it all wrong and definitely have their hearts there. IMO, blessings taught about in the Bible are primarily intangible.

Take Paul for example...In his first letter to the church of Corinth he says to "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ".

In his second letter to the same church he talks about our "hardships" as Christians, verse 10 "sorrowful, yet always rejoicing, poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything."

If what you're referencing is Paul in 2 Corinthians 8: 9 "...yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich." this is not speaking to financial riches, but the reward we have in heaven. He later says in verse 15 "as it is written: 'The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little'." If you're living like some of these pastors are living...you have too much. No other way to explain it.

 

[TheClemsonJaguar]

Churches do not have to file for tax exempt status or submit any sort of filing to the IRS.

 

[Taylors_Tiger]

Is it also true that a board approves these salaries? Is it true the board consists of Furtick, Noble and other mega church pastors? So they vote on how much each other are paid? I have also heard that it is common practice for the members of this board (mega church pastors) to speak at each other's church and be paid for it? Wonder how much is being paid out in that way? I'm sure they are issued 1099's...haha

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by SWUtigers:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Uh the difference is one a privately held company and the other is a publically held company. HUGE differences in how they release their tax/budget information.

But to summarize, you're ok with a "non-profit" not paying taxes and NOT revealing how they disperse their money? Frankly, I'm not.

This post was edited on 4/17 2:05 PM by SWUtigers

Help me out! Which one is privately held and which one is publicly held? Who has proof that they don't reveal their spending? All of this is rumor. Most churches that are organized like NS don't publicize their budget, but they do allow anyone who is a member to see the books whenever they ask to. I think they are bound by law and their Articles of Incorporation to do so. My point is that they are not accountable to me for how they spend money.

Sorry, poor choice of words regarding their status. I'll grant you that.

To the bold portion, I have asked numerous times to at least shine some light on the subject and all I get is crickets. If it's easy to obtain, then it should be easy to find on the internet, right?

Are you a member of the corporation? If you are, have you made an appointment and gone and asked to see the books? That is where I'm sure it is all made available.

 

[Trading Tiger]

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by nseverett:

I can't prove it, but it goes both ways--you can't PROVE that they are exploiting anyone.

The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.

Nobody donates blindly. You can specify where you want your money to go, well...at least for certain things. Newspring is also subject to an annual, external audit of which anyone/everyone receives a copy. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they stopped printing it to cut down on costs but it's available online somewhere.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

First... the list on page 3 was for another church, not NewSpring, and was given as an example of how most churches are open with the information we are discussing.

Second, when an organization is given tax exempt status it should have to report this info. Any 501c3 has to make their books available. even if it raises only a few thousand dollars for a specific purpose. Evidently, churches are not required to do this but that doesn't mean they are not morally obligated to.

Also, it appears NewSpring calls its members 'owners' but doesn't treat them as such.

I guarantee you they are employees from a legal standpoint. I bet they are covered under either an employment contract or are just salaried employees. Either way, when you get tax free money, you should have to show where it goes.

Also, Elevation Church was a church plant from the Baptist State Convention of NC. That guy didn't 'found it'. He had help.

Ok, thanks for the clarity, I misread the page 3 example.

You're right they should have to report the information. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but to who? Non-members who are not contributors? They are morally obligated, but I have no issue with this information being made available on a per request basis.

As to the members being "owners" and such and how they're treated and appearances, seems like a lot of conclusions are being drawn based on rumor.

Not necessarily. Many pastors are considered self-employed and end up paying more taxes on their taxable income than they would otherwise to avoid the "employee" mentality.

Just because he had some assistance doesn't mean he is not the founder. He is and will always be the founding pastor. That is like saying a businessman who receives a grant that helped him start his business is not the founder. You're reaching on that one.

Maybe, but my experience with most church plants is that the planting organization decides to set up the new church then hires the pastor, etc.. Maybe that was not the case here, but in my experience it is the case. We may just have a difference of semantics.

As to the 'self employed' status, that would vary dramatically between denominations but doesn't change the scenario. The pastor is getting a check from the church. Why would that be hidden?

As to your question about who it should be divulged to... Well, if you want more donors, I would say it should be open to anyone that might consider donating. That is the whole purpose of the 990 filings so that the info is available. But like a lot of things in our country, special interests got churches off the hook here.

 

[TheClemsonJaguar]

Originally posted by Trading Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by nseverett:

I can't prove it, but it goes both ways--you can't PROVE that they are exploiting anyone.

The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.

Nobody donates blindly. You can specify where you want your money to go, well...at least for certain things. Newspring is also subject to an annual, external audit of which anyone/everyone receives a copy. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they stopped printing it to cut down on costs but it's available online somewhere.

So you specify. How do you know its ends up there?

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by Larry_Williams:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

Agree. If they are tax-exempt then their books should be open just like, say, Clemson's books are open for all to see how much is made by professors, coaches, ADs, etc.

Clemson is a public University. Newspring is a private non-profit corporation. There is a difference. If people really care to know, they would have to investigate NS's Article of Incorporation and Bylaws, which have to meet legal requirements and have to be accepted by the Secretary of Sate. If any corporation, for profit or non-profit does not operate by it's Articles and bylaws, that is when they get into trouble.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by Trading Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by nseverett:

I can't prove it, but it goes both ways--you can't PROVE that they are exploiting anyone.

The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.

Nobody donates blindly. You can specify where you want your money to go, well...at least for certain things. Newspring is also subject to an annual, external audit of which anyone/everyone receives a copy. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they stopped printing it to cut down on costs but it's available online somewhere.

Only to a point... the organization can refuse your donation if you put contingencies on it as to how it is used. Also, Perry is very much against designated gifts according to some of his blogs and videos I watched. I understand that with at tithe it is generally expected to not be designated. Offerings above the tithe would be where he would deem it acceptable to designate the use based on what I read that he said.

So he preaches that you give 10% without question of where it is spent as your tithe.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

Listen, the only reason I jumped in this thing is because it bothers me to see people get accused of something where there is no proof, only assumptions. If you want to know what their business practices and policies are, you can probably pull up their Article of Incorporation off of the Secretary of States website and you may have to do some research to find their bylaws. That is the only way for sure anyone can concretely know what the practices are. The assumptions and unfounded accusations need to stop though.

 

[OrangeTigerTower]

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

You are missing the boat.
Hypothetically Cris pays taxes on his personal wages AND tigerillustrated.com inc pays taxes on its profits. Cris is taxed twice. Hypothetically.

The church is considered charity work and as such its profits are not taxable.

So hypothetically without open books PN could have a $1 salary, pay no taxes and his every worldly possession could be bought and paid for by NewSpring Inc which pays no taxes.

 

[OrangeTigerTower]

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

You are missing the boat.
Hypothetically Cris pays taxes on his personal wages AND tigerillustrated.com inc pays taxes on its profits. Cris is taxed twice. Hypothetically.

The church is considered charity work and as such its profits are not taxable.

So hypothetically without open books PN could have a $1 salary, pay no taxes and his every worldly possession could be bought and paid for by NewSpring Inc which pays no taxes.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

There is a difference, but that doesn't mean they are accountable to me or you. They are accountable to the people who are members of the corporation and who have the rights within the corporation as the articles dictate.

Yes, it does. We are taxpayers. Most likely our employers are taxpayers. All business entities that received revenue are taxpayers. Tax exemption is a lawful exemption that permits them to avoid taxes they would otherwise pay.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. By law they are not accountable to you and me. Actually, they are only accountable by law to whom their Article's of Incorporation say they are, and those Articles have to accepted by the Secretary of State. So in essence, the government signs off on the Articles. If you feel they are because of status, that is your opinion.

 

[Trading Tiger]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Trading Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by nseverett:

I can't prove it, but it goes both ways--you can't PROVE that they are exploiting anyone.

The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.

Nobody donates blindly. You can specify where you want your money to go, well...at least for certain things. Newspring is also subject to an annual, external audit of which anyone/everyone receives a copy. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they stopped printing it to cut down on costs but it's available online somewhere.

Only to a point... the organization can refuse your donation if you put contingencies on it as to how it is used. Also, Perry is very much against designated gifts according to some of his blogs and videos I watched. I understand that with at tithe it is generally expected to not be designated. Offerings above the tithe would be where he would deem it acceptable to designate the use based on what I read that he said.

So he preaches that you give 10% without question of where it is spent as your tithe.

Well of course, isn't that what the Bible says? I'm pretty sure there's no "designation" clause in there, God said to bring 10% into the storehouse, so that's what I do.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

Listen, the only reason I jumped in this thing is because it bothers me to see people get accused of something where there is no proof, only assumptions. If you want to know what their business practices and policies are, you can probably pull up their Article of Incorporation off of the Secretary of States website and you may have to do some research to find their bylaws. That is the only way for sure anyone can concretely know what the practices are. The assumptions and unfounded accusations need to stop though.

What have I accused them of? The only thing I have done is said that no member 'owner' has ever stated that their financials were transparent. I then stated that I think they should be since they are tax exempt and contributions to them generate a tax deduction for the giver.

We have members on this thread, none of which have stated that either members have access to the documents or that they are readily available. They all point to the vague report posted by the church.

I am not accusing anyone, just pointing out that it is ridiculous that a booster club has to make everything public but a multi-million dollar church doesn't. And that is not open for discussion, because churches are not required to make that public since they don't have to file a 990.

I could care less about Perry Noble or NewSpring except when their members act all high and mighty and tell me that the church I attend is flawed. Then they can't even tell me how their church operates.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:
With Clemson isn't there a line where only salaries above a certain amount are public?

Probably is. One of the primary rules of a 501c3 is that the organization cannot be established to benefit individual interests. That is why Noble and Furtick's salaries are important.

Individual interest in non=profits deals with property. If NS folds and the property is sold, the sell of that property could not benefit an individual. That does not apply to personal salary package.

 

[TheClemsonJaguar]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. By law they are not accountable to you and me. Actually, they are only accountable by law to whom their Article's of Incorporation say they are, and those Articles have to accepted by the Secretary of State. So in essence, the government signs off on the Articles. If you feel they are because of status, that is your opinion.

State government signs off on their Articles (which for teh most part are a joke btw), not the federal government. I'm not a South Carolina resident so I don't care about state taxes. I care about federal taxes.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by Trading Tiger:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Trading Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by nseverett:

I can't prove it, but it goes both ways--you can't PROVE that they are exploiting anyone.

The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.

Nobody donates blindly. You can specify where you want your money to go, well...at least for certain things. Newspring is also subject to an annual, external audit of which anyone/everyone receives a copy. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they stopped printing it to cut down on costs but it's available online somewhere.

Only to a point... the organization can refuse your donation if you put contingencies on it as to how it is used. Also, Perry is very much against designated gifts according to some of his blogs and videos I watched. I understand that with at tithe it is generally expected to not be designated. Offerings above the tithe would be where he would deem it acceptable to designate the use based on what I read that he said.

So he preaches that you give 10% without question of where it is spent as your tithe.

Well of course, isn't that what the Bible says? I'm pretty sure there's no "designation" clause in there, God said to bring 10% into the storehouse, so that's what I do.

Yes, but you made it sound like you could designate your gifts in your previous post. My point was that you can, but that isn't a tithe. Also, if you do designate, you should have access to documents showing it was spent according to the designation if the donation was accepted.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:
Churches do not have to file for tax exempt status or submit any sort of filing to the IRS.

Not true. Churches have to apply with the government for tax exempt status. That process entails the government approving the Article of Incorporation and the bylaws for the proposed non-profit, as well as salary packages, proposed annual budget and proof of valid ordination for the Senior Pastor/ CEO of the corporation. This can be a time consuming and difficult process. You're right that once they receive this status they do not have to file every year, but if they are ever audited it can be very challenging.

 

[Esso Porch]

Reading this thread has confirmed that my decision to stop attending church services about 15 years ago was a wise one. Thanks guys

 

[Trading Tiger]

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Trading Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by nseverett:

I can't prove it, but it goes both ways--you can't PROVE that they are exploiting anyone.

The point is, if the chucrh is going to claim tax exempt status, you should have to report salary under the law. If members want to blindly donate money to the church without knowing where those funds are going, that is their prerogative. As a tax payer, if our country is going to offer tax exempt status to a $50M a year business, our country should know where that money goes.

Nobody donates blindly. You can specify where you want your money to go, well...at least for certain things. Newspring is also subject to an annual, external audit of which anyone/everyone receives a copy. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they stopped printing it to cut down on costs but it's available online somewhere.

So you specify. How do you know its ends up there?

That you have to take on faith, but there's no way of proving that the money I donate to IPTAY actually gets used for athletics, and I don't worry about that either.

Most of the people ITT have a serious problem with keeping their noses out of other people's business. Y'all are just as bad as those morons in Wisconsin. And if Perry is making anywhere close to the amount of money that I've seen suggested ITT, he sure is doing a great job of squirreling it away. I will admit that he probably has a more expensive wardrobe than I do, but my $50K Corvette beats the crap out of his old car. And unless he's moved in the last couple of years, which is possible but I don't know because I'm not even worried about it, my house is nicer than his too.

All I'm worried about is what God calls me to do, that gives me way more than enough to occupy my time. If God tells me to give time/money to Newspring and then they misuse those resources, that's on them, not me. I'll receive my reward and they'll get what they deserve too, so why worry about it? People just need to chill out.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by OrangeForever:

Originally posted by CUTigerfan33:
I have zero respect for someone like this:

that is on the board of a church run by this crook:

Who is the guy on the bottom? Looks like Merriam Webster Definition of the word "Douchebag"

Steven Furtick of Elevation church based out of Charlotte. Also good friend of PN. They don't release any financials and a board composed of PN and other pastor friends determines Furtick's salary.

Here is a probably very biased article on the $1.7M house he is building: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-1-7-million-home-gift-god-article-1.1501934

Noble and Furtick both founded the churches they pastor. The people in these churches did not "hire" them and subsequently do not need to be the one's determining their salaries. I have no problem with an outside group, or presbytry, setting salaries and/or making recommendations for salaries for the Senior leaders. These men are not employees, and should not treated as such. The fact that on page three of this thread someone has released the missions budget expenditures for last year and someone else posted broad categorical budgetary items in another post tells me that there must be records that are available. Just because they don't have "business meetings" and print the budget and send everyone home with handouts or print it in the "bulletin" does not mean they have closed books that will not be made available per request. I'm sure both ministries have external audits and must cut the mustard with their management practices. I live in Ga. and have never attended a NS service, and honestly it is none of my business how NS spend money. Why so many of us on this board thinks it is our business is beyond me. Every business takes advantage of tax loopholes and allowances, not just non-profits. This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

First... the list on page 3 was for another church, not NewSpring, and was given as an example of how most churches are open with the information we are discussing.

Second, when an organization is given tax exempt status it should have to report this info. Any 501c3 has to make their books available. even if it raises only a few thousand dollars for a specific purpose. Evidently, churches are not required to do this but that doesn't mean they are not morally obligated to.

Also, it appears NewSpring calls its members 'owners' but doesn't treat them as such.

I guarantee you they are employees from a legal standpoint. I bet they are covered under either an employment contract or are just salaried employees. Either way, when you get tax free money, you should have to show where it goes.

Also, Elevation Church was a church plant from the Baptist State Convention of NC. That guy didn't 'found it'. He had help.

Ok, thanks for the clarity, I misread the page 3 example.

You're right they should have to report the information. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but to who? Non-members who are not contributors? They are morally obligated, but I have no issue with this information being made available on a per request basis.

As to the members being "owners" and such and how they're treated and appearances, seems like a lot of conclusions are being drawn based on rumor.

Not necessarily. Many pastors are considered self-employed and end up paying more taxes on their taxable income than they would otherwise to avoid the "employee" mentality.

Just because he had some assistance doesn't mean he is not the founder. He is and will always be the founding pastor. That is like saying a businessman who receives a grant that helped him start his business is not the founder. You're reaching on that one.

Maybe, but my experience with most church plants is that the planting organization decides to set up the new church then hires the pastor, etc.. Maybe that was not the case here, but in my experience it is the case. We may just have a difference of semantics.

As to the 'self employed' status, that would vary dramatically between denominations but doesn't change the scenario. The pastor is getting a check from the church. Why would that be hidden?

As to your question about who it should be divulged to... Well, if you want more donors, I would say it should be open to anyone that might consider donating. That is the whole purpose of the 990 filings so that the info is available. But like a lot of things in our country, special interests got churches off the hook here.

There are different church planting models and organizational expectations. Each one is unique.

Do you print your salary for everyone to see? Why shouldn't pastors get the same privacy anyone else gets?

These questions matter to some people in churches and not to everyone. Those who care, have access. Newsprings policies don't seem to be hurting donations.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by MillerHighLife21:

Originally posted by TheClemsonJaguar:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

This argument is like all of us demanding that Cris publicly publish the TI budget with everyone's salaries listed and all the expenditures for all of us to discuss. It really is none of our business.

Chris pays taxes on his revenue. Elevation and NS do not. There is a big difference.

So do the employees of NewSpring. The organization which receives donations does not pay taxes on those donations though....because that would not make any sense.

However, none of that explains the reasoning for not being transparent. I haven't heard anyone from NewSpring explain why the church isn't transparent. That is all I am asking for.

I haven't heard 'owners' say that they have access to the books but outsiders don't... That would be problematic too, but at least would show some transparency.

Why do I have to make the books of a HS football booster club open to everyone in order to maintain a tax exempt status but a 'church' that brings in 50 million can hide how they spend this money that isn't tax deductible and that those that give the money get a deduction for giving... that is the second half of the puzzle.

At a minimum, anyone that gives should be able to see how it is spent for transparency.

Listen, the only reason I jumped in this thing is because it bothers me to see people get accused of something where there is no proof, only assumptions. If you want to know what their business practices and policies are, you can probably pull up their Article of Incorporation off of the Secretary of States website and you may have to do some research to find their bylaws. That is the only way for sure anyone can concretely know what the practices are. The assumptions and unfounded accusations need to stop though.

What have I accused them of? The only thing I have done is said that no member 'owner' has ever stated that their financials were transparent. I then stated that I think they should be since they are tax exempt and contributions to them generate a tax deduction for the giver.

We have members on this thread, none of which have stated that either members have access to the documents or that they are readily available. They all point to the vague report posted by the church.

I am not accusing anyone, just pointing out that it is ridiculous that a booster club has to make everything public but a multi-million dollar church doesn't. And that is not open for discussion, because churches are not required to make that public since they don't have to file a 990.

I could care less about Perry Noble or NewSpring except when their members act all high and mighty and tell me that the church I attend is flawed. Then they can't even tell me how their church operates.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean you were accusing. I was speaking to other posts.

Most church people don't ask these questions.

If people have said that to you in an arrogant way, that is pretty crappy on their part.

 

[The89Tiger]

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

]

There are different church planting models and organizational expectations. Each one is unique.

Do you print your salary for everyone to see? Why shouldn't pastors get the same privacy anyone else gets?

These questions matter to some people in churches and not to everyone. Those who care, have access. Newsprings policies don't seem to be hurting donations.

I work for a privately held company. That is up to the owners. Our church publishes all salaries because we publish our entire budget.

My parents worked in education and their salaries were available for all to see. Every preacher I have ever had and in fact every church employee I have ever worked with had their salary public.

The issue really boils down to why churches have different filing requirements than any other tax exempt? And even though I am a Christian, I see no reason for the distinction. If they want to keep it private, then give up the tax exempt status. That would be my solution.

 

[Mac Tiger]

Originally posted by The89Tiger:

Originally posted by Mac Tiger:

]

There are different church planting models and organizational expectations. Each one is unique.

Do you print your salary for everyone to see? Why shouldn't pastors get the same privacy anyone else gets?

These questions matter to some people in churches and not to everyone. Those who care, have access. Newsprings policies don't seem to be hurting donations.

I work for a privately held company. That is up to the owners. Our church publishes all salaries because we publish our entire budget.

My parents worked in education and their salaries were available for all to see. Every preacher I have ever had and in fact every church employee I have ever worked with had their salary public.

The issue really boils down to why churches have different filing requirements than any other tax exempt? And even though I am a Christian, I see no reason for the distinction. If they want to keep it private, then give up the tax exempt status. That would be my solution.

I disagree with you on the privacy issue, and that's ok. I've enjoyed to conversation. Got me thinking.