"Thoughts and Prayers"

[nytigerfan]

The majority of firearm homicides aren’t related to mental health. The vast majority are gang related, drug related, and just general POS criminals.

Mental health is the culprit in these school shootings, but that’s not going to show in broad statistics like what you are providing.

I’m open to solutions, but I just don’t really see the correlation in those numbers. I see the US having a higher prevalence of gang and drug violence related to other countries. I don’t think guns cause that. They are just a tool used by these lowlifes or people who have been subjected to this rotten gang/drug culture.

hmmmmmm... gang violence is the culprit. How can we fix that issue? Step one, ban abortions.

 

[nytigerfan]

Oh I agree. I was just replying to his stats though, which were focused on firearm homicides.

The do nothing republicans will literally do nothing about this. No gun laws or restrictions. No funding for mental health treatment.

Republicans. WE DO NOTHING.

 

[nytigerfan]

The majority of firearm homicides aren’t related to mental health. The vast majority are gang related, drug related, and just general POS criminals.

Mental health is the culprit in these school shootings, but that’s not going to show in broad statistics like what you are providing.

I’m open to solutions, but I just don’t really see the correlation in those numbers. I see the US having a higher prevalence of gang and drug violence related to other countries. I don’t think guns cause that. They are just a tool used by these lowlifes or people who have been subjected to this rotten gang/drug culture.

do you think other countries with almost zero school shootings lack mental health issues?

 

[dpic73]

do you think other countries with almost zero school shootings lack mental health issues?

 

[dpic73]

hmmmmmm... gang violence is the culprit. How can we fix that issue? Step one, ban abortions.

 

[Willence]

These are some interesting stats to look at when discussing whether this is a gun issue or a mental health issue (and by the way, I think addressing both is important)...

Below is the rate of firearm homicides per 100,000 citizens. The US has more than the next SEVEN countries combined.

This data is older, but it shows the rate of depression by country. Notice that Australia is on par with the US in terms of depression rate...

Comparing us again to Australia...

Other countries have responded aggressively to their own gun problems with success. In Scotland, after a similar school shooting in 1996, lawmakers banned private ownership of handguns and automatic weapons. There haven’t been any school shootings since. And in dealing with its own gun violence problems in the 1990s, Australia took and destroyed roughly 650,000 guns from private citizens as part of a buyback program. Rates of gun homicides and suicides plummeted.

America’s gun violence epidemic, in one chart

The US has lots of gun violence. It also has lots of guns.

www.vox.com

States with looser gun laws consistently see more gun violence, despite mental health issues being the same.

Mental health is an issue, no doubt. But guns are THE issue. I own three guns myself. I would gladly hand them over if it meant not one more child would be gunned down in a ****ing school or anywhere else.

SOMETHING has to change.

View embedded media

Very well reasoned post, @nytigerfan . You've laid out your argument and used data to make your point. Let's take your points and extrapolate them a bit. If guns were THE problem as you stated, we'd see a long history of this regardless of era or cultural elements because guns would never stop killing people. This post is for @dpic73 @CoffeeIsForClosers and @iceheart08 too.

Let’s make a dangerous assumption and go with the argument that Wikipedia has this information right. Here’s a list of “school shootings” even though they aren’t all shootings that happened from the 1840’s through 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)

Notice how most of the incidents are 1 person and based on a conflict. There are very few incidents involving mass casualties. The worst one involved a hostage situation and a bomb going off. During these times, it was ok for people to bring guns to school and keep them in their cars, etc. yet we just weren’t seeing what we see now.

So that seems to poke a hole in our belief that guns are THE problem.

Looking at the murder rate going back to the 1950’s, we saw a very low murder rate around 4.4 per 100,000 people in the US. Then from 1967 – 1980 it went up dramatically to a peak of 10.2 per 100,000 in 1980. Yet we didn’t see mass shootings in school increase. There are all kinds of factors that could be considered here. The types of drugs people used, migration to cities, the Vietnam War, economic woes, lead levels in cities (yes, this is a thing if you read up on it) and myriad other issues. Mass shootings do not seem to follow the rate of crime in the United States. They are independent of that. So what do mass shootings follow in terms of statistics we can analyze? Answer: Depression and suicide rates. i.e. mental health

Suicide rates also began their clime to where they are today. They have steadily increased and are now almost double what they were in 1980. The rate of teen depression has more than doubled since 1990. Suicide rates among teens are dramatically higher now as well. They have increased faster than the overall rate of suicide. So analyzing this we can say factually that as mental health has declined in the United States we have seen increases in suicide, mass shootings

That’s part one of this… Part two deals with guns

There are over 300 million guns in the United States today. So let’s go off the argument you want to regulate guns because they are THE problem. How would you want to go about that? We’ve heard the following suggestions: Background checks, regulation of gun show sales, waiting periods, large magazine bans, semi-automatic bans (what people ignorantly call assault weapons even though they aren’t) and perhaps I am missing a few.

Waiting periods seem like a good idea. We have 6 states with waiting periods to purchase firearms. I would imagine those states see far less shootings as a result of giving cooler heads time to prevail. Here are the states:

• California – 10 days
• District of Columbia – 10 days
• Florida – 3 days or the time it takes to complete required background checks, whichever occurs later
• Hawaii – 14 days
• Illinois – 72 hours
• Rhode Island – 7 days

Also, here’s a list of the states with the strictest gun laws. They receive an A or A- in terms of their laws and the strictness of them:

State	Gun Law Ranking	2019 Strictness Grade	Gun Death Rate
California	1	A	7.45
New Jersey	2	A	4.75
Connecticut	3	A-	4.91
New York	4	A-	4.03
Hawaii	5	A-	4.03
Maryland	6	A-	11.61
Massachusetts	7	A-	3.46
Illinois	8	A-	10.78

Here’s a list of the stats with the most mass shootings in 2020:

• California (257)
• Illinois (209)
• Florida (147)
• Texas (129)
• New York (96)
• Pennsylvania (92)
• Georgia (89)
• Louisiana (87)
• Tennessee (84)
• Ohio (80)

So basically, waiting periods, magazine restrictions, background checks, etc. that are all in place in these states accomplish very little based on the data. They still lead the way in gun violence despite their best efforts.

So again I ask, what laws do you want to put in place that will change our situation based on the view that guns are THE problem?

In the latest shootings, the shooters obtained their weapons legally. They passed background checks and followed the laws. Then they used their weapons to do something that was pure evil. In both cases there were warning signs that if given attention, may have been able to prevent these events. Maybe it would be a good idea to start paying more attention to mental health and addressing the warning signs (which are very consistent) that a person is considering doing something horrible?

Back to your guns argument and believing they are THE problem. The only way we can stop this is to take everyone’s weapons. We’ll have to confiscate all of them. We’ll have to seal our border. We’ll have to inspect every household and confiscate weapons from everyone. We’ll have to go into gang havens and ask them to return all their guns. That’s the only way to solve THE problem of guns in the United States. On that gang matter, consider this:

-More than 2,000 illegal weapons come over our southern border every day. Many of those weapons find their way into the hands of gangs. Getting statistics on gangs is hard but here’s the best available data I could find.

-13% of all murders are associated with gangs

-In Los Angeles, over 15 crimes per day are committed by gang members.

-Tracking of gang activity has demonstrated the lead recruiting tool used by gangs now is social media and their numbers are growing exponentially

-Gangs comprise over 48% of all violent crime in the US.

-Best available data shows over 49% of human trafficking victims had some connection to gangs

-It is believed there are almost 2 million members of gangs in the United States.

-The cities with the highest rates of gang violence also have the highest rates of violent crime and major crime.

If unused, a gun will never hurt anyone. It’s the person that wields it who is the problem. Only ever statistic available demonstrates this. This is a people problem, not a gun problem. Yet we want to take the guns and not deal with people. How insane is that? You guys have all pointed out a lot of things in this thread. You’ve talked about a lot of policy ideas and even one person admitted they wouldn’t stop the shootings but he wanted more laws. It all comes down to one question.

What are you proposing that will stop future mass shootings? If you can’t answer that definitively, then what’s your point really other than a desire to gain power over people and control what they have access to because you don’t like them politically?

 

[yoshi121374]

What is sad to me is that even is this thread we see the partisan divide and talking points between many of us. I don't claim to be independent, I largely lean Dem, but I realize that neither party has gotten anything done. How about come up with some suggestions that will pass? You aren't going to pass outlawing guns, calling AR's "assault rifles" will immediately fire up the right and will put up a wall to anything getting done. Likewise, the right has got to realize that there is a violence and gun issue in America and work to make sure crazy people have less access. Less access doesn't mean someone is going to take away your guns.

We have got to focus on getting something done. I know very few people who would be against a longer waiting period, and a higher age to purchase. Why is that an issue? Most gun owners would be ok with required background checks for person to person sales. It's not difficult to go down to the local gun shop and paying a small few for a legal transfer.

We need to recognize that we have a massive issue with Mental Health and coping skills. The "every child gets a trophy" crowd has created kids who can't deal with not winning. They haven't ever not gotten what they want, so when a girl breaks up with them it's literally the worst thing that they have ever experienced, and they don't have skills to deal with this.

Shit is getting scary. I'm scared for my family,my friends, and teachers who I know who are dealing with more pressure daily than should be happening.

 

[Willence]

The do nothing republicans will literally do nothing about this. No gun laws or restrictions. No funding for mental health treatment.

Republicans. WE DO NOTHING.

I don't want the federal government dealing with mental health issues. I am interested in solving problems, not creating a new federal apparatus to waste our money and accomplish very little. It is a state matter. By your argument about Republicans, it would mean that states controlled by Democrats would have the lowest rates of depression but the highest depression rate is Oregon. The lowest depression rate is Hawaii. Hawaii is also a state with some of the strictest gun laws yet they have some of the higher rates of gun related crime. Here's a clue my friend, this isn't a political matter. It's a cultural matter for a nation that is obsessed with violence in music, TV, movies, games, etc and we live incredibly unhealthy lifestyles in terms of what we consume and what we believe and most of all, what we seem to have stopped to stop believing in. The people that follow the basic rules that have always worked in society commit almost zero crimes. This is an irrefutable fact.

 

[nytigerfan]

Very well reasoned post, @nytigerfan . You've laid out your argument and used data to make your point. Let's take your points and extrapolate them a bit. If guns were THE problem as you stated, we'd see a long history of this regardless of era or cultural elements because guns would never stop killing people. This post is for @dpic73 @CoffeeIsForClosers and @iceheart08 too.

Let’s make a dangerous assumption and go with the argument that Wikipedia has this information right. Here’s a list of “school shootings” even though they aren’t all shootings that happened from the 1840’s through 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)

Notice how most of the incidents are 1 person and based on a conflict. There are very few incidents involving mass casualties. The worst one involved a hostage situation and a bomb going off. During these times, it was ok for people to bring guns to school and keep them in their cars, etc. yet we just weren’t seeing what we see now.

So that seems to poke a hole in our belief that guns are THE problem.

Looking at the murder rate going back to the 1950’s, we saw a very low murder rate around 4.4 per 100,000 people in the US. Then from 1967 – 1980 it went up dramatically to a peak of 10.2 per 100,000 in 1980. Yet we didn’t see mass shootings in school increase. There are all kinds of factors that could be considered here. The types of drugs people used, migration to cities, the Vietnam War, economic woes, lead levels in cities (yes, this is a thing if you read up on it) and myriad other issues. Mass shootings do not seem to follow the rate of crime in the United States. They are independent of that. So what do mass shootings follow in terms of statistics we can analyze? Answer: Depression and suicide rates. i.e. mental health

Suicide rates also began their clime to where they are today. They have steadily increased and are now almost double what they were in 1980. The rate of teen depression has more than doubled since 1990. Suicide rates among teens are dramatically higher now as well. They have increased faster than the overall rate of suicide. So analyzing this we can say factually that as mental health has declined in the United States we have seen increases in suicide, mass shootings

That’s part one of this… Part two deals with guns

There are over 300 million guns in the United States today. So let’s go off the argument you want to regulate guns because they are THE problem. How would you want to go about that? We’ve heard the following suggestions: Background checks, regulation of gun show sales, waiting periods, large magazine bans, semi-automatic bans (what people ignorantly call assault weapons even though they aren’t) and perhaps I am missing a few.

Waiting periods seem like a good idea. We have 6 states with waiting periods to purchase firearms. I would imagine those states see far less shootings as a result of giving cooler heads time to prevail. Here are the states:

• California – 10 days
• District of Columbia – 10 days
• Florida – 3 days or the time it takes to complete required background checks, whichever occurs later
• Hawaii – 14 days
• Illinois – 72 hours
• Rhode Island – 7 days

Also, here’s a list of the states with the strictest gun laws. They receive an A or A- in terms of their laws and the strictness of them:

State	Gun Law Ranking	2019 Strictness Grade	Gun Death Rate
California	1	A	7.45
New Jersey	2	A	4.75
Connecticut	3	A-	4.91
New York	4	A-	4.03
Hawaii	5	A-	4.03
Maryland	6	A-	11.61
Massachusetts	7	A-	3.46
Illinois	8	A-	10.78

Here’s a list of the stats with the most mass shootings in 2020:

• California (257)
• Illinois (209)
• Florida (147)
• Texas (129)
• New York (96)
• Pennsylvania (92)
• Georgia (89)
• Louisiana (87)
• Tennessee (84)
• Ohio (80)

So basically, waiting periods, magazine restrictions, background checks, etc. that are all in place in these states accomplish very little based on the data. They still lead the way in gun violence despite their best efforts.

So again I ask, what laws do you want to put in place that will change our situation based on the view that guns are THE problem?

In the latest shootings, the shooters obtained their weapons legally. They passed background checks and followed the laws. Then they used their weapons to do something that was pure evil. In both cases there were warning signs that if given attention, may have been able to prevent these events. Maybe it would be a good idea to start paying more attention to mental health and addressing the warning signs (which are very consistent) that a person is considering doing something horrible?

Back to your guns argument and believing they are THE problem. The only way we can stop this is to take everyone’s weapons. We’ll have to confiscate all of them. We’ll have to seal our border. We’ll have to inspect every household and confiscate weapons from everyone. We’ll have to go into gang havens and ask them to return all their guns. That’s the only way to solve THE problem of guns in the United States. On that gang matter, consider this:

-More than 2,000 illegal weapons come over our southern border every day. Many of those weapons find their way into the hands of gangs. Getting statistics on gangs is hard but here’s the best available data I could find.

-13% of all murders are associated with gangs

-In Los Angeles, over 15 crimes per day are committed by gang members.

-Tracking of gang activity has demonstrated the lead recruiting tool used by gangs now is social media and their numbers are growing exponentially

-Gangs comprise over 48% of all violent crime in the US.

-Best available data shows over 49% of human trafficking victims had some connection to gangs

-It is believed there are almost 2 million members of gangs in the United States.

-The cities with the highest rates of gang violence also have the highest rates of violent crime and major crime.

If unused, a gun will never hurt anyone. It’s the person that wields it who is the problem. Only ever statistic available demonstrates this. This is a people problem, not a gun problem. Yet we want to take the guns and not deal with people. How insane is that? You guys have all pointed out a lot of things in this thread. You’ve talked about a lot of policy ideas and even one person admitted they wouldn’t stop the shootings but he wanted more laws. It all comes down to one question.

What are you proposing that will stop future mass shootings? If you can’t answer that definitively, then what’s your point really other than a desire to gain power over people and control what they have access to because you don’t like them politically?

Mass shootings and school shootings have most definitely risen since the 1980s, right along with gun ownership.

Mass shooting in the US 1980 to today.

School shootings in the US 1980 till now.

Number of students killed 1908 till now...

Yearly growth of new firearms in the US late 80's until recently.

 

[nytigerfan]

I don't want the federal government dealing with mental health issues. I am interested in solving problems, not creating a new federal apparatus to waste our money and accomplish very little. It is a state matter. By your argument about Republicans, it would mean that states controlled by Democrats would have the lowest rates of depression but the highest depression rate is Oregon. The lowest depression rate is Hawaii. Hawaii is also a state with some of the strictest gun laws yet they have some of the higher rates of gun related crime. Here's a clue my friend, this isn't a political matter. It's a cultural matter for a nation that is obsessed with violence in music, TV, movies, games, etc and we live incredibly unhealthy lifestyles in terms of what we consume and what we believe and most of all, what we seem to have stopped to stop believing in. The people that follow the basic rules that have always worked in society commit almost zero crimes. This is an irrefutable fact.

And since we are quoting Wikipedia now, here is direct correlation between income inequality and mental health disorders. It sure looks like capitalism is killing us all. Vote for Bernie!

 

[Willence]

Mass shootings and school shootings have most definitely risen since the 1980s, right along with gun ownership.

Mass shooting in the US 1980 to today.

School shootings in the US 1980 till now.

Number of students killed 1908 till now...

Yearly growth of new firearms in the US late 80's until recently.

Yes, gun ownership has risen. Why is that? You like to point things out but you never answer questions about anything. So I ask again, what do you want to do that you believe will directly impact the prevalence of these shootings? How would you stop them if you were king for a day?

NOTE: I think the hopelessness and socioeconomic issues we have are ENORMOUS issues. It isn't capitalism though. It's broken homes and generational poverty due to lack of education. The United States has greater upward mobility for all its citizens than any other nation when people follow the basic rules that avoid this kind of poverty. Graduate from high school, get married and don't have kids until you're married. Do those things you're all but guaranteed not to be poor.

That being said, it should be noted that most of these mass shootings aren't committed by people who are economically challenged. So that hasn't been a defining marker.

 

[nytigerfan]

What is sad to me is that even is this thread we see the partisan divide and talking points between many of us. I don't claim to be independent, I largely lean Dem, but I realize that neither party has gotten anything done. How about come up with some suggestions that will pass? You aren't going to pass outlawing guns, calling AR's "assault rifles" will immediately fire up the right and will put up a wall to anything getting done. Likewise, the right has got to realize that there is a violence and gun issue in America and work to make sure crazy people have less access. Less access doesn't mean someone is going to take away your guns.

We have got to focus on getting something done. I know very few people who would be against a longer waiting period, and a higher age to purchase. Why is that an issue? Most gun owners would be ok with required background checks for person to person sales. It's not difficult to go down to the local gun shop and paying a small few for a legal transfer.

We need to recognize that we have a massive issue with Mental Health and coping skills. The "every child gets a trophy" crowd has created kids who can't deal with not winning. They haven't ever not gotten what they want, so when a girl breaks up with them it's literally the worst thing that they have ever experienced, and they don't have skills to deal with this.

Shit is getting scary. I'm scared for my family,my friends, and teachers who I know who are dealing with more pressure daily than should be happening.

Sorry man, but the republicans absolutely refuse to do ANYTHING about this issue, other than offer thoughts and prayers.

No gun restrictions of any kind.
Ban abortion (which will only increase crime)
No federal spending to increase access to mental health treatment for people who cannot afford it otherwise.

This is a political issue. They literally want to DO NOTHING.

 

[Willence]

Sorry man, but the republicans absolutely refuse to do ANYTHING about this issue, other than offer thoughts and prayers.

No gun restrictions of any kind.
Ban abortion (which will only increase crime)
No federal spending to increase access to mental health treatment for people who cannot afford it otherwise.

This is a political issue. They literally want to DO NOTHING.

This has always been your problem. You're a perfect example of why nothing gets done. You want to win. You want your way. You didn't even answer the questions and comments I posed in my earlier post. You can't do that because you're like a robocall. It's a pre-recorded message that comes out every time you post. When it comes to discussion, you seem to be incapable of that. Bet if you actually talked about things we could come to quite a few conclusions upon which we'd agree. But I suspect you're never going to bother to make that effort because you know the stuff you are spouting doesn't add up to much.

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

What is sad to me is that even is this thread we see the partisan divide and talking points between many of us. I don't claim to be independent, I largely lean Dem, but I realize that neither party has gotten anything done. How about come up with some suggestions that will pass? You aren't going to pass outlawing guns, calling AR's "assault rifles" will immediately fire up the right and will put up a wall to anything getting done. Likewise, the right has got to realize that there is a violence and gun issue in America and work to make sure crazy people have less access. Less access doesn't mean someone is going to take away your guns.

We have got to focus on getting something done. I know very few people who would be against a longer waiting period, and a higher age to purchase. Why is that an issue? Most gun owners would be ok with required background checks for person to person sales. It's not difficult to go down to the local gun shop and paying a small few for a legal transfer.

We need to recognize that we have a massive issue with Mental Health and coping skills. The "every child gets a trophy" crowd has created kids who can't deal with not winning. They haven't ever not gotten what they want, so when a girl breaks up with them it's literally the worst thing that they have ever experienced, and they don't have skills to deal with this.

Shit is getting scary. I'm scared for my family,my friends, and teachers who I know who are dealing with more pressure daily than should be happening.

💯

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

This has always been your problem. You're a perfect example of why nothing gets done. You want to win. You want your way. You didn't even answer the questions and comments I posed in my earlier post. You can't do that because you're like a robocall. It's a pre-recorded message that comes out every time you post. When it comes to discussion, you seem to be incapable of that. Bet if you actually talked about things we could come to quite a few conclusions upon which we'd agree. But I suspect you're never going to bother to make that effort because you know the stuff you are spouting doesn't add up to much.

^^^ Truth ^^^

 

[TheSweatshirt]

Again.. this press conference was not about Abbott, Beto, or anyone else, except the people/families/community suffering there at this time.

Put the politics aside for now. Damn, man.

He cut $211mm in funding from mental health services and encourages more gun ownership. He's absolutely complicit and deserves to be called out.

 

[Willence]

We have got to focus on getting something done. I know very few people who would be against a longer waiting period, and a higher age to purchase. Why is that an issue? Most gun owners would be ok with required background checks for person to person sales. It's not difficult to go down to the local gun shop and paying a small few for a legal transfer.

We don't always agree, but I know you are a person of good faith. I'd like to ask you a couple questions about this part of your post.

Most mass shooters pass background checks. The most recent two did pass them and they purchased their weapons legally. Do you think if they had to wait more it would have helped? The states with the longest waiting periods have the highest rates of gun violence. What evidence is there to suggest this would work? How many mass shooters used weapons illegally obtained? How many used weapons purchased in person to person sales?

FWIW, I would 100% support waiting periods and third party regulation of person to person sales. We allow young men and women to join the military and use weapons at 18. Would raising the age really help? If we think so, then I could even get on board with that. It is conceivable that raising the age would have impacted the ability to obtain a weapon for the most recent shooters.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

Let me clarify, although I thought that I had been:

1.Security is most important immediately
2. Teachers shouldn't carry
3. We need to focus on Mental Health and self regulation of emotions
4. Smart gun control is needed. Delays to getting weapons, increase age limits, control person to person sales without background checks

I don't see why anyone would disagree with this. I would also be in favor of banning or tighter controls for assault weapons. I really don't have a problem with people owning AR-15s, but if you can easily take out 20-25 people anytime you want, then I believe you also need to be investigated in greater depth and more regularly.

But the answer can't be "do nothing".

 

[nytigerfan]

This has always been your problem. You're a perfect example of why nothing gets done. You want to win. You want your way. You didn't even answer the questions and comments I posed in my earlier post. You can't do that because you're like a robocall. It's a pre-recorded message that comes out every time you post. When it comes to discussion, you seem to be incapable of that. Bet if you actually talked about things we could come to quite a few conclusions upon which we'd agree. But I suspect you're never going to bother to make that effort because you know the stuff you are spouting doesn't add up to much.

Solutions?

These are taken from Prevention Institute and are spot on in my opinion.

Gun safety: Reduce the imminent risk of lethality through sensible gun laws and a culture of safety.

1. Sensible gun laws: Reduce easy access to dangerous weapons.

2. Establish a culture of gun safety.

• Reduce firearm access to youth and individuals who are at risk of harming themselves or others.
  
• Hold the gun industry accountable and ensure there is adequate oversight over the marketing and sales of guns and ammunition.
  
• Engage responsible gun dealers and owners in solutions.
  
• Insist on mandatory training and licensing for owners.
  
• Require safe and secure gun storage.
  

Underlying contributors to gun violence: systematically reduce risks and increase resilience in individuals, families, and communities.

3. Public health solutions: Recognize gun violence as a critical and preventable public health problem.

4. Comprehensive solutions: Support community planning and implementation of comprehensive community safety plans that include prevention and intervention.

5. Trauma, connection, and services: Expand access to high quality, culturally competent, coordinated, social, emotional, and mental health supports and address the impact of trauma.

Prevention Infrastructure: ensure effectiveness and sustainability of efforts

6. Support gun violence research: Ensure that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and others have the resources to study this issue and provide science-based guidance.

7. Health system: Establish a comprehensive health system in which violence prevention is a health system responsibility and imperative.

New Frontiers: continue to learn, innovate, and increase impact through research and practice

8. Community healing: Prevent community trauma.

9. Mental health and wellbeing: Invest in communities to promote resilience and mental health and wellbeing.

10. Support healthy norms about masculinity: Explore the pathways between gun violence and harmful norms that have been about maintaining power and privilege.

11. Impulsive anger: Explore the linkages between anger and gun violence.

12. Economic development: Reduce concentrated disadvantage and invest in employment opportunities.

13. Law enforcement violence: Establish accountability for sworn officers and private security.

14. Technology: Advance gun safety and self-defense technology.

 

[CU Alumnus]

I'd like to solution too. You want to deal with objects but what I'm talking about is that we have people in this country who are so broken that they will do this. That speaks volumes about our culture. Taking objects away from people doesn't change what's in their heart. It's hard for me to believe that we can't come together on that irrefutable fact and work together to try to start solving these problems.

This isn't the fault of biden's America or Trump's America or Obama's America. This is 100% about us in our brokenness. It's a matter of willingness to deal with the terrible things that we advocate for and allow to go on in our culture.

I have a son in elementary school. These type of things bring me to tears instantly. I can't imagine the pain of such a horrible situation. I don't want anyone to experience such an unfathomable loss.

Maybe a good first step to take would be to make it much more difficult for these broken people to get guns?

I saw a statement that the shooter had no known mental issues.

Bullshvt. He had mental problems. You know how I know that?

BECAUSE HE KILLED 18 KIDS AT A FVCKING SCHOOL!!!!!!

We need to identify those who need help and get it to them. Many of those needing help aren't evil. They aren't the devil. They're broken inside. Something is wrong and they are scared to tell anyone, if they even realize it.

Maybe that isn't the case here. Maybe this shithead is just pure evil. But we gotta fix the mental health problem.

Because if we don't, any gun laws we pass won't do a fvcking thing. They'll use bombs or knives or something else.

 

[nytigerfan]

This has always been your problem. You're a perfect example of why nothing gets done. You want to win. You want your way. You didn't even answer the questions and comments I posed in my earlier post. You can't do that because you're like a robocall. It's a pre-recorded message that comes out every time you post. When it comes to discussion, you seem to be incapable of that. Bet if you actually talked about things we could come to quite a few conclusions upon which we'd agree. But I suspect you're never going to bother to make that effort because you know the stuff you are spouting doesn't add up to much.

Bullshit. I don't agree with you. It's that simple.

 

[Willence]

He cut $211mm in funding from mental health services and encourages more gun ownership. He's absolutely complicit and deserves to be called out.

This is a talking point that may or may not have any bearing on this. The mental health apparatus we have in place isn't working. At some point, people have to recognize that throwing money at problems doesn't work. There are countless examples of this all around us.

What should the state being doing about mental health?
What programs were cut in Texas that led to this crisis?
How was this shooter impacted by the cut in funding?
What types of programs do we need in place to help with our mental health problems?

 

[yoshi121374]

We don't always agree, but I know you are a person of good faith. I'd like to ask you a couple questions about this part of your post.

Most mass shooters pass background checks. The most recent two did pass them and they purchased their weapons legally. Do you think if they had to wait more it would have helped? The states with the longest waiting periods have the highest rates of gun violence. What evidence is there to suggest this would work? How many mass shooters used weapons illegally obtained? How many used weapons purchased in person to person sales?

FWIW, I would 100% support waiting periods and third party regulation of person to person sales. We allow young men and women to join the military and use weapons at 18. Would raising the age really help? If we think so, then I could even get on board with that. It is conceivable that raising the age would have impacted the ability to obtain a weapon for the most recent shooters.

My thoughts about a waiting period is it at least eliminates the spur of the moment decision, it gives some time to let cooler heads prevail. It may give some time for investigation into social media and see if there is some sort of red flag.

It's something. It's more than we have been doing

 

[Willence]

I don't see why anyone would disagree with this. I would also be in favor of banning or tighter controls for assault weapons. I really don't have a problem with people owning AR-15s, but if you can easily take out 20-25 people anytime you want, then I believe you also need to be investigated in greater depth and more regularly.

But the answer can't be "do nothing".

There's no such thing as an assault weapon. You're a smart guy. Perhaps consider not using that conjured up term.

I can't think of a reason why I would be opposed to there being required training to own a semi-automatic weapon. However, I do oppose government registration of weapons owned. We have different classes of licenses for driving. I can drive a car but I am not licensed to drive an 18-wheeler.

 

[yoshi121374]

I saw a statement that the shooter had no known mental issues.

Bullshvt. He had mental problems. You know how I know that?

BECAUSE HE KILLED 18 KIDS AT A FVCKING SCHOOL!!!!!!

We need to identify those who need help and get it to them. Many of those needing help aren't evil. They aren't the devil. They're broken inside. Something is wrong and they are scared to tell anyone, if they even realize it.

Maybe that isn't the case here. Maybe this shithead is just pure evil. But we gotta fix the mental health problem.

Because if we don't, any gun laws we pass won't do a fvcking thing. They'll use bombs or knives or something else.

He had not been in trouble, but there were some red flags, and he had been posting alarming things on his social media. That's why I suggest a waiting period.

Maybe we make a first step that under 26 (arbitrary number I suggest since insurance companies use it for reduced cost for insurance) there is a one week waiting period

 

[TheSweatshirt]

The breakdown of the nuclear family, the erosion of traditional family values, the drugs, and even social media are contributing to this problem. Gun control is absolutely not the answer. We do need to start defending these schools with armed deputies at all times. We need to start identifying the people with mental issues quicker and more efficiently. Most of these shooters have advertised what they were going to do beforehand.

They send billions overseas but will not staff our schools with deputies?

I agree with some of this, but haven't seen any solutions about identifying mental illness issues more quickly. If you have any solutions that have been discussed, I would be interested in learning more.

 

[Willence]

Solutions?

These are taken from Prevention Institute and are spot on in my opinion.

Gun safety: Reduce the imminent risk of lethality through sensible gun laws and a culture of safety.

1. Sensible gun laws: Reduce easy access to dangerous weapons.

2. Establish a culture of gun safety.

• Reduce firearm access to youth and individuals who are at risk of harming themselves or others.
• Hold the gun industry accountable and ensure there is adequate oversight over the marketing and sales of guns and ammunition.
• Engage responsible gun dealers and owners in solutions.
• Insist on mandatory training and licensing for owners.
• Require safe and secure gun storage.

Underlying contributors to gun violence: systematically reduce risks and increase resilience in individuals, families, and communities.

3. Public health solutions: Recognize gun violence as a critical and preventable public health problem.

4. Comprehensive solutions: Support community planning and implementation of comprehensive community safety plans that include prevention and intervention.

5. Trauma, connection, and services: Expand access to high quality, culturally competent, coordinated, social, emotional, and mental health supports and address the impact of trauma.

Prevention Infrastructure: ensure effectiveness and sustainability of efforts

6. Support gun violence research: Ensure that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and others have the resources to study this issue and provide science-based guidance.

7. Health system: Establish a comprehensive health system in which violence prevention is a health system responsibility and imperative.

New Frontiers: continue to learn, innovate, and increase impact through research and practice

8. Community healing: Prevent community trauma.

9. Mental health and wellbeing: Invest in communities to promote resilience and mental health and wellbeing.

10. Support healthy norms about masculinity: Explore the pathways between gun violence and harmful norms that have been about maintaining power and privilege.

11. Impulsive anger: Explore the linkages between anger and gun violence.

12. Economic development: Reduce concentrated disadvantage and invest in employment opportunities.

13. Law enforcement violence: Establish accountability for sworn officers and private security.

14. Technology: Advance gun safety and self-defense technology.

News Flash - There are a lot of philosophies here I could get behind. But this is also a lot of pie in the sky word salad with lofty goals through undefined practices. That being said, on the merits, about half of this I would be onboard with exploring and working on.

 

[Willence]

My thoughts about a waiting period is it at least eliminates the spur of the moment decision, it gives some time to let cooler heads prevail. It may give some time for investigation into social media and see if there is some sort of red flag.

It's something. It's more than we have been doing

It is. I'm just pointing out the places with waiting periods have the highest rates of violence.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

This is a talking point that may or may not have any bearing on this. The mental health apparatus we have in place isn't working. At some point, people have to recognize that throwing money at problems doesn't work. There are countless examples of this all around us.

What should the state being doing about mental health?
What programs were cut in Texas that led to this crisis?
How was this shooter impacted by the cut in funding?
What types of programs do we need in place to help with our mental health problems?

while your points are valid, I think we can agree that cutting $211mm can not have a positive impact on identifying and treating mental illness.

 

[Willence]

Solutions?

These are taken from Prevention Institute and are spot on in my opinion.

Gun safety: Reduce the imminent risk of lethality through sensible gun laws and a culture of safety.

1. Sensible gun laws: Reduce easy access to dangerous weapons.

2. Establish a culture of gun safety.

• Reduce firearm access to youth and individuals who are at risk of harming themselves or others.
• Hold the gun industry accountable and ensure there is adequate oversight over the marketing and sales of guns and ammunition.
• Engage responsible gun dealers and owners in solutions.
• Insist on mandatory training and licensing for owners.
• Require safe and secure gun storage.

Underlying contributors to gun violence: systematically reduce risks and increase resilience in individuals, families, and communities.

3. Public health solutions: Recognize gun violence as a critical and preventable public health problem.

4. Comprehensive solutions: Support community planning and implementation of comprehensive community safety plans that include prevention and intervention.

5. Trauma, connection, and services: Expand access to high quality, culturally competent, coordinated, social, emotional, and mental health supports and address the impact of trauma.

Prevention Infrastructure: ensure effectiveness and sustainability of efforts

6. Support gun violence research: Ensure that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and others have the resources to study this issue and provide science-based guidance.

7. Health system: Establish a comprehensive health system in which violence prevention is a health system responsibility and imperative.

New Frontiers: continue to learn, innovate, and increase impact through research and practice

8. Community healing: Prevent community trauma.

9. Mental health and wellbeing: Invest in communities to promote resilience and mental health and wellbeing.

10. Support healthy norms about masculinity: Explore the pathways between gun violence and harmful norms that have been about maintaining power and privilege.

11. Impulsive anger: Explore the linkages between anger and gun violence.

12. Economic development: Reduce concentrated disadvantage and invest in employment opportunities.

13. Law enforcement violence: Establish accountability for sworn officers and private security.

14. Technology: Advance gun safety and self-defense technology.

If I gave you most of this would you give me an initiative to eradicate gangs, secure our border and stop the flow of drugs and weapons into our country?

 

[TheSweatshirt]

There's no such thing as an assault weapon. You're a smart guy. Perhaps consider not using that conjured up term.

I can't think of a reason why I would be opposed to there being required training to own a semi-automatic weapon. However, I do oppose government registration of weapons owned. We have different classes of licenses for driving. I can drive a car but I am not licensed to drive an 18-wheeler.

That's fair. Why would you oppose govt registration of weapons? We have to do that for our cars, boats. I think registration would ensure that folks are keeping their guns in areas that are not accessible to kids or thieves. Ours are kept in a safe.

 

[dpic73]

We don't always agree, but I know you are a person of good faith. I'd like to ask you a couple questions about this part of your post.

Most mass shooters pass background checks. The most recent two did pass them and they purchased their weapons legally. Do you think if they had to wait more it would have helped? The states with the longest waiting periods have the highest rates of gun violence. What evidence is there to suggest this would work? How many mass shooters used weapons illegally obtained? How many used weapons purchased in person to person sales?

FWIW, I would 100% support waiting periods and third party regulation of person to person sales. We allow young men and women to join the military and use weapons at 18. Would raising the age really help? If we think so, then I could even get on board with that. It is conceivable that raising the age would have impacted the ability to obtain a weapon for the most recent shooters.

The Uvalde shooter WAITED until he turned 18 to legally buy his weapons, he didn't buy them at 17. It's not far-fetched to reason that he may not have bought them until he turned 21 if that was the law. But since we can't prove a negative, we'll never know, but it could have absolutely made a difference.

 

[yoshi121374]

The Uvalde shooter WAITED until he turned 18 to legally buy his weapons, he didn't buy them at 17. It's not far-fetched to reason that he may not have bought them until he turned 21 if that was the law. But since we can't prove a negative, we'll never know, but it could have absolutely made a difference.

And a waiting period while we investigated his social media posting and messaging wlmay have identified that he was planning this. He apparently had sent messages that he was gonna shoot his grandma, that he had shot his grandma, and that he was going to shoot a school.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

And a waiting period while we investigated his social media posting and messaging wlmay have identified that he was planning this. He apparently had sent messages that he was gonna shoot his grandma, that he had shot his grandma, and that he was going to shoot a school.

That's the part I struggle with. The Patriot Act that was passed after 9/11 is the greatest invasion of privacy in this history of this country. I may be ok with that for semi-automatic weapons or CCPs, but I don't know how you enforce this. Perhaps a psychological exam for folks who want either is a more reasonable solution. And just like we need to renew drivers licenses and register our vehicles periodically, we should be doing the same with our guns.

 

[CoffeeIsForClosers]

Very well reasoned post, @nytigerfan . You've laid out your argument and used data to make your point. Let's take your points and extrapolate them a bit. If guns were THE problem as you stated, we'd see a long history of this regardless of era or cultural elements because guns would never stop killing people. This post is for @dpic73 @CoffeeIsForClosers and @iceheart08 too.

Let’s make a dangerous assumption and go with the argument that Wikipedia has this information right. Here’s a list of “school shootings” even though they aren’t all shootings that happened from the 1840’s through 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)

Notice how most of the incidents are 1 person and based on a conflict. There are very few incidents involving mass casualties. The worst one involved a hostage situation and a bomb going off. During these times, it was ok for people to bring guns to school and keep them in their cars, etc. yet we just weren’t seeing what we see now.

So that seems to poke a hole in our belief that guns are THE problem.

Looking at the murder rate going back to the 1950’s, we saw a very low murder rate around 4.4 per 100,000 people in the US. Then from 1967 – 1980 it went up dramatically to a peak of 10.2 per 100,000 in 1980. Yet we didn’t see mass shootings in school increase. There are all kinds of factors that could be considered here. The types of drugs people used, migration to cities, the Vietnam War, economic woes, lead levels in cities (yes, this is a thing if you read up on it) and myriad other issues. Mass shootings do not seem to follow the rate of crime in the United States. They are independent of that. So what do mass shootings follow in terms of statistics we can analyze? Answer: Depression and suicide rates. i.e. mental health

Suicide rates also began their clime to where they are today. They have steadily increased and are now almost double what they were in 1980. The rate of teen depression has more than doubled since 1990. Suicide rates among teens are dramatically higher now as well. They have increased faster than the overall rate of suicide. So analyzing this we can say factually that as mental health has declined in the United States we have seen increases in suicide, mass shootings

That’s part one of this… Part two deals with guns

There are over 300 million guns in the United States today. So let’s go off the argument you want to regulate guns because they are THE problem. How would you want to go about that? We’ve heard the following suggestions: Background checks, regulation of gun show sales, waiting periods, large magazine bans, semi-automatic bans (what people ignorantly call assault weapons even though they aren’t) and perhaps I am missing a few.

Waiting periods seem like a good idea. We have 6 states with waiting periods to purchase firearms. I would imagine those states see far less shootings as a result of giving cooler heads time to prevail. Here are the states:

• California – 10 days
• District of Columbia – 10 days
• Florida – 3 days or the time it takes to complete required background checks, whichever occurs later
• Hawaii – 14 days
• Illinois – 72 hours
• Rhode Island – 7 days

Also, here’s a list of the states with the strictest gun laws. They receive an A or A- in terms of their laws and the strictness of them:

State	Gun Law Ranking	2019 Strictness Grade	Gun Death Rate
California	1	A	7.45
New Jersey	2	A	4.75
Connecticut	3	A-	4.91
New York	4	A-	4.03
Hawaii	5	A-	4.03
Maryland	6	A-	11.61
Massachusetts	7	A-	3.46
Illinois	8	A-	10.78

Here’s a list of the stats with the most mass shootings in 2020:

• California (257)
• Illinois (209)
• Florida (147)
• Texas (129)
• New York (96)
• Pennsylvania (92)
• Georgia (89)
• Louisiana (87)
• Tennessee (84)
• Ohio (80)

So basically, waiting periods, magazine restrictions, background checks, etc. that are all in place in these states accomplish very little based on the data. They still lead the way in gun violence despite their best efforts.

So again I ask, what laws do you want to put in place that will change our situation based on the view that guns are THE problem?

In the latest shootings, the shooters obtained their weapons legally. They passed background checks and followed the laws. Then they used their weapons to do something that was pure evil. In both cases there were warning signs that if given attention, may have been able to prevent these events. Maybe it would be a good idea to start paying more attention to mental health and addressing the warning signs (which are very consistent) that a person is considering doing something horrible?

Back to your guns argument and believing they are THE problem. The only way we can stop this is to take everyone’s weapons. We’ll have to confiscate all of them. We’ll have to seal our border. We’ll have to inspect every household and confiscate weapons from everyone. We’ll have to go into gang havens and ask them to return all their guns. That’s the only way to solve THE problem of guns in the United States. On that gang matter, consider this:

-More than 2,000 illegal weapons come over our southern border every day. Many of those weapons find their way into the hands of gangs. Getting statistics on gangs is hard but here’s the best available data I could find.

-13% of all murders are associated with gangs

-In Los Angeles, over 15 crimes per day are committed by gang members.

-Tracking of gang activity has demonstrated the lead recruiting tool used by gangs now is social media and their numbers are growing exponentially

-Gangs comprise over 48% of all violent crime in the US.

-Best available data shows over 49% of human trafficking victims had some connection to gangs

-It is believed there are almost 2 million members of gangs in the United States.

-The cities with the highest rates of gang violence also have the highest rates of violent crime and major crime.

If unused, a gun will never hurt anyone. It’s the person that wields it who is the problem. Only ever statistic available demonstrates this. This is a people problem, not a gun problem. Yet we want to take the guns and not deal with people. How insane is that? You guys have all pointed out a lot of things in this thread. You’ve talked about a lot of policy ideas and even one person admitted they wouldn’t stop the shootings but he wanted more laws. It all comes down to one question.

What are you proposing that will stop future mass shootings? If you can’t answer that definitively, then what’s your point really other than a desire to gain power over people and control what they have access to because you don’t like them politically?

I believe you have me confused with someone else.

 

[PAWrocka]

And a waiting period while we investigated his social media posting and messaging wlmay have identified that he was planning this. He apparently had sent messages that he was gonna shoot his grandma, that he had shot his grandma, and that he was going to shoot a school.

I think he posted those messages the day of the shooting, all within an hour before the shooting.

To @dpic73 recent point ... Im a pretty staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment ...and a registered Republican ... but I could behind legislation that prohibits the sales of certain style of firearms under the age of 21.

I have two AR-15s, and I have them purely for the purpose of a "Oh Shit ... Country/World has gone to shit/Zombie Apocalypse" reason. Our shotguns would be used for home defense.

The only practical application for a AR-15 that I have heard someone say was my uncle who raises beef cattle. He uses his AR to shoot coyotes. With his AR he can take out more than one coyote in a single sitting, where as it is more more difficult to do so with a bolt action rifle

 

[nytigerfan]

News Flash - There are a lot of philosophies here I could get behind. But this is also a lot of pie in the sky word salad with lofty goals through undefined practices. That being said, on the merits, about half of this I would be onboard with exploring and working on.

Other countries have enacted these reforms and have significantly less mass shootings than we do. I don’t think any of these are “pie in the sky”. That’s a pretty standard Republican tactic. “These are our in the sky, so let’s just do nothing instead.”


How to Prevent Gun Massacres? Look Around the World
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/how-to-prevent-gun-massacres-look-around-the-world

 

[Willence]

That's the part I struggle with. The Patriot Act that was passed after 9/11 is the greatest invasion of privacy in this history of this country. I may be ok with that for semi-automatic weapons or CCPs, but I don't know how you enforce this. Perhaps a psychological exam for folks who want either is a more reasonable solution. And just like we need to renew drivers licenses and register our vehicles periodically, we should be doing the same with our guns.

I agree with you. My issue in all these things is unless a rule is incredibly specific and limited in ironclad ways, I don't trust government to do what's right. They almost never do what's right. Government is a necessary evil. Never in history has it and the people involved in it not sought to empower themselves further than is necessary.

Other countries have enacted these reforms and have significantly less mass shootings than we do. I don’t think any of these are “pie in the sky”. That’s a pretty standard Republican tactic. “These are our in the sky, so let’s just do nothing instead.”


How to Prevent Gun Massacres? Look Around the World
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/how-to-prevent-gun-massacres-look-around-the-world

I'm sure it will annoy you but I don't care what other countries do. Most of them are not truly free nations. The United States does lead the world in many unfortunate areas. But we also lead the world in many great ways as well. Freedom isn't just the good things. That's why we must seek our own solutions to the unfortunate issues that are by-products of being such a free Republic. Seeing what has happened around the world the last 2-years only further cemented my views that we must maintain our freedoms at all costs. We've already violated too many of them with our behavior the last 2-years. I'm looking to reduce government and what it does a whole lot more, not increase the role of government. There are other ways that don't include become Australia or someplace like that.

 

[PawsFan_]

Mass shootings and school shootings have most definitely risen since the 1980s, right along with gun ownership.

Mass shooting in the US 1980 to today.

School shootings in the US 1980 till now.

Number of students killed 1908 till now...

Yearly growth of new firearms in the US late 80's until recently.

Wow. The country has added 100 million people since 1980 and we are surprised related crimes have increased?

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

He cut $211mm in funding from mental health services and encourages more gun ownership. He's absolutely complicit and deserves to be called out.

At the appropriate time, yes.