Credit card balances jumped in the second quarter and are above $1 trillion for the first time

[Cris_Ard]

Credit card balances jumped in the second quarter and are above $1 trillion for the first time​

By: Jeff Cox - CNBC.com

Americans increasingly turned to their credit cards to make ends meet heading into the summer, sending aggregate balances over $1 trillion for the first time ever, the New York Federal Reserve reported Tuesday.

Total credit card indebtedness rose by $45 billion in the April-through-June period, an increase of more than 4%. That took the total amount owed to $1.03 trillion, the highest gross value in Fed data going back to 2003.

The increase in the category was the most notable area as total household debt edged higher by about $16 billion to $17.06 trillion, also a fresh record.

“Household budgets have benefitted from excess savings and pandemic-related debt forbearances over the past three years, but the remnants of those benefits are coming to an end,” said Elizabeth Renter, data analyst at personal finance site NerdWallet. “Credit card delinquencies continue an upward trend, a growing sign that consumers are feeling the pinch of high prices and lower savings balances than they had just a few years ago.”

As card use grew, so did the delinquency rate.

The Fed’s measure of credit card debt 30 or more days late climbed to 7.2% in the second quarter, up from 6.5% in Q1 and the highest rate since the first quarter of 2012 though close to the long-run normal, central bank officials said. Total debt delinquency edged higher to 3.18% from 3%.

“Credit card balances saw brisk growth in the second quarter,” said Joelle Scally, regional economic principal within the Household and Public Policy Research Division at the New York Fed. “And while delinquency rates have edged up, they appear to have normalized to pre-pandemic levels.”

Fed researchers say the rise in balances reflects both inflationary pressures as well as higher levels of consumption.

On the inflation issue, household income adjusted for inflation and taxes is running some 9.1% below where it was in April 2020, putting additional pressure on consumers, according to SMB Nikko Securities.

“This is an issue because the sustainability of consumers’ pandemic debt-binge was partially predicated upon their incomes steadily rising,” Troy Ludtka, senior U.S. economist at SMBC Nikko, said in a client note. “Instead, the opposite occurred, and now the rate at which borrowers are running late on their debt payments is back to pre-Covid levels. This could be the newest challenge facing embattled commercial banks.”

The central bank also said demand for card issuance has eased, which has come in conjunction with banks saying that credit standards are tightening.

Debt across other categories showed only modest changes. Newly originated mortgages rose to $393 billion though total mortgage debt nudged lower to just over $12 trillion. Auto loans increased by $20 billion to $1.58 trillion and student loans decreased to $1.57 trillion ahead of the lifting of the moratorium on payments.

 

[BlueRidgedf]

CREDIT CARD FORGIVENESS NOW!!!!!

 

[FranktheDank]

I’m very curious to see where things stand this time next year after student loan payments have been back in order for over half a year and interest rates are about the same or only slightly lower.

 

[Jjh7]

When systemic oppression credit card debt relief demands start?

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

Reparations gor credit card slaves now

 

[BlueRidgedf]

WHERE IS BERNIE SANDER ON THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE!!!!! CREDIT CARD FORGIVENESS NOW !!!!! ITS NOT MY FAULT !!!!!!

 

[okclem]

The U.S. economy is one, giant ponzi scheme. I sure hope I'm no longer around when it all goes belly up.

 

[Willence]

CC debt up, hardship withdrawals from 401ks up, contributions to retirement are down, loans against 401ks are up. Bidenomics in action! The pain is coming good and hard unfortunately. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

The US economy is not a ponzi scheme. Big government controlled economics is. They are always spending and sharing money with people that isn't there to begin with. Social Security is the largest ponzi scheme of all time.

 

[okclem]

CC debt up, hardship withdrawals from 401ks up, contributions to retirement are down, loans against 401ks are up. Bidenomics in action! The pain is coming good and hard unfortunately. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

The US economy is not a ponzi scheme. Big government controlled economics is. They are always spending and sharing money with people that isn't there to begin with. Social Security is the largest ponzi scheme of all time.

Bot

 

[Willence]

Bot

Not an atypical response when your views are met with facts.

It sucks because on the football forum, you're really reasonable and thoughtful. I actually like most of your posts there. That makes it all the more mystifying why you come at this forum as such an unhinged and angry person. I get hating Trump because I'm right there with you on that to a degree but I don't get why you take it so far and so hard. I know you dislike me intensely from stuff you've said in the past but I bet we want a lot of the same things via different means. Perhaps it would be good to consider giving peace a chance?

 

[scotchtiger]

You do have to wonder if there is a consumer debt bubble of some sort coming. I look around, and I don’t understand how everyone affords everything I see. Multi million dollar houses, $200k+ boats, $80k+ cars, new pool. That seems to be a routine family around here. Reminds me of the old lending tree commercials.

 

[Willence]

You do have to wonder if there is a consumer debt bubble of some sort coming. I look around, and I don’t understand how everyone affords everything I see. Multi million dollar houses, $200k+ boats, $80k+ cars, new pool. That seems to be a routine family around here. Reminds me of the old lending tree commercials.

This is my observation as well. I have clients whose wealth has increased exponentially in a very short time because they had the liquid resources to make investments that allowed them to thrive when others are flailing.

But far more it is the case that I have clients who are dealing with a lot of difficult situations and it's the rule not the exception that when I close loans it's for people who have a backend debt ratio of nearly 50% of their pre-tax earnings. That's an impossible way to live.

The thing that's going to really sting is when student loan payments start again. It's going to be a crushing blow for many even with income based repayment options.

 

[scotchtiger]

This is my observation as well. I have clients whose wealth has increased exponentially in a very short time because they had the liquid resources to make investments that allowed them to thrive when others are flailing.

But far more it is the case that I have clients who are dealing with a lot of difficult situations and it's the rule not the exception that when I close loans it's for people who have a backend debt ratio of nearly 50% of their pre-tax earnings. That's an impossible way to live.

The thing that's going to really sting is when student loan payments start again. It's going to be a crushing blow for many even with income based repayment options.

I feel like a lot of people saw significant income increases through job repositioning after Covid as well. What happens when those jobs are scaled back? Instead of 50%, is that debt to income now 75% for that family?

And that’s in your upper middle to upper class. Income ranges. What about the people struggling to make ends meet? Running up credit card debt and withdrawing on their 401(k) is just to pay for food and gas?

Student loan repayments should never have been suspended this long. But I agree that we will see an impact when they start back up. Responsible people should have been planning for this all along of course. It’s not like it’s a surprise.

 

[Willence]

I feel like a lot of people saw significant income increases through job repositioning after Covid as well. What happens when those jobs are scaled back? Instead of 50%, is that debt to income now 75% for that family?

And that’s in your upper middle to upper class. Income ranges. What about the people struggling to make ends meet? Running up credit card debt and withdrawing on their 401(k) is just to pay for food and gas?

Student loan repayments should never have been suspended this long. But I agree that we will see an impact when they start back up. Responsible people should have been planning for this all along of course. It’s not like it’s a surprise.

In defense of many, the cost of rent went up exponentially in such a short period of time. I don't know how people could manage all the increases in expenses.

In 2019, the average new car price was $36,800. To start 2023, it was $49,388. On top of that, with rates around 6.5%, that's an $830/month payment on a new vehicle over 72 months. In 2019, that would have been around $550/month for the average new car. Gas has gone from $2.23/gal to start 2019 to $3.82/gal last week and the list goes on and on. A pound of beef in 2019 was $3.70/lb. Now it's about to hit $5/lb. The increases continue to compound on people and at some point, it's all going to come home to roost. We've made a terrible mess of things in large part because we have an economically ignorant population in this country.

 

[scotchtiger]

In defense of many, the cost of rent went up exponentially in such a short period of time. I don't know how people could manage all the increases in expenses.

In 2019, the average new car price was $36,800. To start 2023, it was $49,388. On top of that, with rates around 6.5%, that's an $830/month payment on a new vehicle over 72 months. In 2019, that would have been around $550/month for the average new car. Gas has gone from $2.23/gal to start 2019 to $3.82/gal last week and the list goes on and on. A pound of beef in 2019 was $3.70/lb. Now it's about to hit $5/lb. The increases continue to compound on people and at some point, it's all going to come home to roost. We've made a terrible mess of things in large part because we have an economically ignorant population in this country.

Yea, I don’t see how it’s sustainable. People aren’t making that much more.

And in your business, I don’t know how people are affording houses with current prices and interest rates. The mortgage on my house for a new buyer would be 4-5X what I pay between value growth since 2016 and current rates. It’s insane.

 

[yoshi121374]

I agree with most of this. At the risk of sounding like an old guy, the financial planning and understanding of pretty much everyone is awful. One of the biggest issues we have as Americans, is this constant desire to have new,bigger,better, etc. The constant chase drives us to work too hard, too long, and not at all plan for the future.

I had a full personal reckoning at 40, some might consider it a midlife crisis lol. I realized that working 70+ hours a week since I was 20 was killing me quickly, I was about 80 lbs overweight, blood pressure was through the roof, and I was solidly in the diabetic range. Food Service stress, anxiety, and proximity to great food all the time we're just killing me.

I was on a sailboat in the keys with my wife when I almost started crying, I looked around, and said, why am I not doing more of this? That new car, bigger TV etc weren't gonna matter if I was dead. I immediately started looking for new careers with a better work life balance. I found a good opportunity, and took a pretty big pay cut, but just took it on faith that we could make it work.

In a very short time, I was far happier, changed my diet, and had some side gigs/ musical opportunities arise that offset the financial loss, and were things I enjoyed. Today I'm far healthier, BP is great, not even ore diabetic with no meds, and at the lowest weight I've been since I was 18.

None of this would have been possible had my wife and I not been financially smart through he early years of our marriage. We lived in a small family home, we paid off debt, while using reward credit cards to pay for vacations etc. We prioritize vacations and experiences over stuff.

Life is so damn short y'all, I'm 48 and figure, best case I've got 40 more years. On my death bed, I want to look back on experiences not the newest TV I bought.

 

[scotchtiger]

I agree with most of this. At the risk of sounding like an old guy, the financial planning and understanding of pretty much everyone is awful. One of the biggest issues we have as Americans, is this constant desire to have new,bigger,better, etc. The constant chase drives us to work too hard, too long, and not at all plan for the future.

I had a full personal reckoning at 40, some might consider it a midlife crisis lol. I realized that working 70+ hours a week since I was 20 was killing me quickly, I was about 80 lbs overweight, blood pressure was through the roof, and I was solidly in the diabetic range. Food Service stress, anxiety, and proximity to great food all the time we're just killing me.

I was on a sailboat in the keys with my wife when I almost started crying, I looked around, and said, why am I not doing more of this? That new car, bigger TV etc weren't gonna matter if I was dead. I immediately started looking for new careers with a better work life balance. I found a good opportunity, and took a pretty big pay cut, but just took it on faith that we could make it work.

In a very short time, I was far happier, changed my diet, and had some side gigs/ musical opportunities arise that offset the financial loss, and were things I enjoyed. Today I'm far healthier, BP is great, not even ore diabetic with no meds, and at the lowest weight I've been since I was 18.

None of this would have been possible had my wife and I not been financially smart through he early years of our marriage. We lived in a small family home, we paid off debt, while using reward credit cards to pay for vacations etc. We prioritize vacations and experiences over stuff.

Life is so damn short y'all, I'm 48 and figure, best case I've got 40 more years. On my death bed, I want to look back on experiences not the newest TV I bought.

Agree here. We've tried to focus more on experiences. Trips with the kids, memorable weekends, quality time, etc. I turned 40 yesterday and I'm not having a midlife issue about my age, but definitely an elevated awareness of how much more time I have with my kids. I've changed my perspective on work a bit this year and take more time off, don't spend time on pointless, time-consuming BS, etc.

 

[yoshi121374]

Agree here. We've tried to focus more on experiences. Trips with the kids, memorable weekends, quality time, etc. I turned 40 yesterday and I'm not having a midlife issue about my age, but definitely an elevated awareness of how much more time I have with my kids. I've changed my perspective on work a bit this year and take more time off, don't spend time on pointless, time-consuming BS, etc.

Life is so damn short my friend. Time with loved ones is everything. I still work hard, and very competitive at work, and try to make a great living, but I have actually turned down promotions that would cut into my "off" time. $10k more a year isnt going to change my lifestyle at all. Unless it is retire years earlier money there isn't a price anymore for me to work and miss time with my wife and friends.

 

[gardentiger]

Perfectly normal. Nothing to see here. Talking about it makes it worse. Just pretend.

 

[scotchtiger]

Life is so damn short my friend. Time with loved ones is everything. I still work hard, and very competitive at work, and try to make a great living, but I have actually turned down promotions that would cut into my "off" time. $10k more a year isnt going to change my lifestyle at all. Unless it is retire years earlier money there isn't a price anymore for me to work and miss time with my wife and friends.

I did the same this year. Company wanted me to take over all sales in a SVP role. 2X the time and 4X the stress and money wouldn’t have been much different. Great for climbing the ladder, but I’m pretty good where I am. I’d only do it for another early growth company and huge equity stake. Time and quality of life is too important with kids in the house.

 

[DW4_2016]

CC debt up, hardship withdrawals from 401ks up, contributions to retirement are down, loans against 401ks are up. Bidenomics in action! The pain is coming good and hard unfortunately. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

The US economy is not a ponzi scheme. Big government controlled economics is. They are always spending and sharing money with people that isn't there to begin with. Social Security is the largest ponzi scheme of all time.

morons taking out 401K loans to buy a truck is biden's fault?

 

[CUT93]

It's depressing for sure. Bidenomics is terrible for everyone, but it is killing lower income families and those dependent on govt income/subsidies for income. All the basics( food, gas, utilities, housing) have skyrocketed. Combined with the fact the govt has stopped just sending people straight cash in the name of covid, and financial situations for lower income families is bad and getting worse. Luckily, Biden is doing things like requiring families that can't afford to put gas in their car to buy light bulbs that cost 10x more than the ones they could get last month, lol.

You never know the timing, but you can be sure the increase in consumer debt, which will only worsen when people start having to pay back student loans, will be a drag on the economy and likely stifle corporate investment. When and how much is tbd.

 

[scotchtiger]

morons taking out 401K loans to buy a truck is biden's fault?

Eh, maybe they were just taking notes from Biden. Doing things like taking out loans to provide handouts so college grads don’t have to pay back the loans they willingly took. Great examples of financial stewardship and responsibility from our fearless leaders.

I suppose it’s not surprising that the simps in the country don’t understand financial responsibility if our government leaders either don’t understand it or willfully disregard it.

 

[flotiger]

It's depressing for sure. Bidenomics is terrible for everyone, but it is killing lower income families and those dependent on govt income/subsidies for income. All the basics( food, gas, utilities, housing) have skyrocketed. Combined with the fact the govt has stopped just sending people straight cash in the name of covid, and financial situations for lower income families is bad and getting worse. Luckily, Biden is doing things like requiring families that can't afford to put gas in their car to buy light bulbs that cost 10x more than the ones they could get last month, lol.

You never know the timing, but you can be sure the increase in consumer debt, which will only worsen when people start having to pay back student loans, will be a drag on the economy and likely stifle corporate investment. When and how much is tbd.

Everything you said is bullshit and has nothing to do with anything. I don't know what else I can say about that.

Governments aren't businesses, and can't be run as such. Deficit economic theory isn't inherently wrong. But more and more debt is a drag on the country, I don't care which economic theory is the favorite. So with that said, the simple man's math says we have a three prong problem. We have a consumerist mentality instead of one of more practicality that has been bred into us and needs to be curtailed. How...I have no idea, but it will be painful. And more importantly we have to somehow compromise on cutting spending and raising taxes. In some of our best economic decades, we had much much higher taxes. Trickle down is bullshit. But we still need to be a modern society and provide for our less able and vulnerable among us. But we have to find a better and more efficient way to do so.

I don't know how we get people to come together on this, but the problems are right there in front of us. Easy to see imo.

 

[scotchtiger]

Everything you said is bullshit and has nothing to do with anything. I don't know what else I can say about that.

Governments aren't businesses, and can't be run as such. Deficit economic theory isn't inherently wrong. But more and more debt is a drag on the country, I don't care which economic theory is the favorite. So with that said, the simple man's math says we have a three prong problem. We have a consumerist mentality instead of one of more practicality that has been bred into us and needs to be curtailed. How...I have no idea, but it will be painful. And more importantly we have to somehow compromise on cutting spending and raising taxes. In some of our best economic decades, we had much much higher taxes. Trickle down is bullshit. But we still need to be a modern society and provide for our less able and vulnerable among us. But we have to find a better and more efficient way to do so.

I don't know how we get people to come together on this, but the problems are right there in front of us. Easy to see imo.

I think this is a fair post. On raising taxes, I think we need to take an honest look at the effective rates paid and agree on who is and isn’t paying their fair share. Is over half the country who barely contributes to federal income tax paying their fair share? Is a family making six figures that pays a single digit effective federal tax rate paying their fair share? Is a family making $500K paying a 25%+ effective rate paying their fair share? Is a billionaire or mega millionaire using loopholes to pay a single digit rate paying their fair share?

I think there’s only one group above pulling their weight, and ironically, it’s the one Biden wants to tax more. That’s easy to see - as you say - when you look at the numbers and math. I think that’s where the democrat argument about raising taxes completely falls apart.

 

[CUT93]

Everything you said is bullshit and has nothing to do with anything. I don't know what else I can say about that.

Governments aren't businesses, and can't be run as such. Deficit economic theory isn't inherently wrong. But more and more debt is a drag on the country, I don't care which economic theory is the favorite. So with that said, the simple man's math says we have a three prong problem. We have a consumerist mentality instead of one of more practicality that has been bred into us and needs to be curtailed. How...I have no idea, but it will be painful. And more importantly we have to somehow compromise on cutting spending and raising taxes. In some of our best economic decades, we had much much higher taxes. Trickle down is bullshit. But we still need to be a modern society and provide for our less able and vulnerable among us. But we have to find a better and more efficient way to do so.

I don't know how we get people to come together on this, but the problems are right there in front of us. Easy to see imo.

Could you be more specific?
I am pretty sure costs for everything is up. I am pretty sure there are no more stimulus checks coming. I am pretty sure low income families are struggling. I am pretty sure it will get worse for those who have to start paying back student loans. I am pretty sure debt will be a drag on the economy- for multiple reasons. Where is the BS in any of that?

 

[harristeeter]

Could you be more specific?
I am pretty sure costs for everything is up. I am pretty sure there are no more stimulus checks coming. I am pretty sure low income families are struggling. I am pretty sure it will get worse for those who have to start paying back student loans. I am pretty sure debt will be a drag on the economy- for multiple reasons. Where is the BS in any of that?

Yeah, everything you just mentioned is 100% correct. If someone actually disagrees they're definitely playing politics. I believe he's mad because you put Biden's name in your original comment.

 

[flotiger]

Could you be more specific?
I am pretty sure costs for everything is up. I am pretty sure there are no more stimulus checks coming. I am pretty sure low income families are struggling. I am pretty sure it will get worse for those who have to start paying back student loans. I am pretty sure debt will be a drag on the economy- for multiple reasons. Where is the BS in any of that?

I was a bit overboard on the bullshit statement. It's just the Bidenomics blurb you used. I'm just so anti-trump that I get triggered....lol. I'm not pro Biden either.

While there are some negative effects from executive branch decisions, I just don't think there's been much of an impact currently on the overall cost to consumers. The problem lies with both parties in congress and corporations using that situation to their advantage.

 

[flotiger]

I think this is a fair post. On raising taxes, I think we need to take an honest look at the effective rates paid and agree on who is and isn’t paying their fair share. Is over half the country who barely contributes to federal income tax paying their fair share? Is a family making six figures that pays a single digit effective federal tax rate paying their fair share? Is a family making $500K paying a 25%+ effective rate paying their fair share? Is a billionaire or mega millionaire using loopholes to pay a single digit rate paying their fair share?

I think there’s only one group above pulling their weight, and ironically, it’s the one Biden wants to tax more. That’s easy to see - as you say - when you look at the numbers and math. I think that’s where the democrat argument about raising taxes completely falls apart.

I can't argue with your points. All fair, and sounds just like me a decade or so ago. But we have a problem and I don't think the answer is to just dismantle welfare or social safety net. Not in modern times, in a country of 330M. Too many repercussions. But we do need to streamline the bloat and get more value from the system.

I'm not an anti capitalist. I've owned many small businesses and franchises in my past. But corporate welfare and taxes need to be addressed. They, along with ultra high earners, have the power to manipulate the system to their advantage. So while philosophically I agree with fairness in taxation, their ability to game the system has to be met with higher % of support by taxation. Because in real world they aren't going to stop doing what they do to avoid taxes. And there's no historical evidence that suggests higher corporate and high earner taxes will do harm to the economy as a whole. Maybe it's not "fair" but some of our better economic eras had much higher corporate and high earner tax rates.

 

[scotchtiger]

I can't argue with your points. All fair, and sounds just like me a decade or so ago. But we have a problem and I don't think the answer is to just dismantle welfare or social safety net. Not in modern times, in a country of 330M. Too many repercussions. But we do need to streamline the bloat and get more value from the system.

I'm not an anti capitalist. I've owned many small businesses and franchises in my past. But corporate welfare and taxes need to be addressed. They, along with ultra high earners, have the power to manipulate the system to their advantage. So while philosophically I agree with fairness in taxation, their ability to game the system has to be met with higher % of support by taxation. Because in real world they aren't going to stop doing what they do to avoid taxes. And there's no historical evidence that suggests higher corporate and high earner taxes will do harm to the economy as a whole. Maybe it's not "fair" but some of our better economic eras had much higher corporate and high earner tax rates.

So where do you draw the line for tax increases?

You mentioned ultra high earners and those with power to manipulate the system. That’s not who Biden targeted when he said he wants to raise taxes on families making more than $400k. These are everyday working families that have found a bit of success and face the full brunt of our progressive tax tiers.

So do you agree that tax increases should be limited to who you described - ultra high earners and those with power to manipulate the system? What’s an ultra high earner?

 

[nytigerfan]

morons taking out 401K loans to buy a truck is biden's fault?

What I have learned on TI...

Anything going wrong in this country is directly attributable to Joe Biden.

Anything going right in this country has nothing to do with Joe Biden, and is actually just carryover success from trump's time in office.

Prior to Joe Biden's first day in office, Americans were prudent consumers who rarely if ever over leveraged credit to fund their lifestyles. It was Joe Biden's terrible example that made American consumers start using credit irresponsibly.

Anyone who is not MAGA is a communist, a fascist, and a socialist all at the same time.

 

[flotiger]

So where do you draw the line for tax increases?

You mentioned ultra high earners and those with power to manipulate the system. That’s not who Biden targeted when he said he wants to raise taxes on families making more than $400k. These are everyday working families that have found a bit of success and face the full brunt of our progressive tax tiers.

So do you agree that tax increases should be limited to who you described - ultra high earners and those with power to manipulate the system? What’s an ultra high earner?

I'm opposed to income taxes in general. I believe in property taxes being the fairest method. But that's a different discussion.

I'm with you on $400K being too low. My swag is probably $600K but just an opinion. I agree with the Trump tax cuts on inherited wealth, by the way.

But I'm mostly on the corporate tax increase bandwagon. There's were I believe we've got to focus. You can find numerous studies that will come down on either side of whether that hurts or helps, but I believe it helps the deficit and won't damage employment, despite the CEO cries to the contrary. But what do I know.

 

[yoshi121374]

So where do you draw the line for tax increases?

You mentioned ultra high earners and those with power to manipulate the system. That’s not who Biden targeted when he said he wants to raise taxes on families making more than $400k. These are everyday working families that have found a bit of success and face the full brunt of our progressive tax tiers.

So do you agree that tax increases should be limited to who you described - ultra high earners and those with power to manipulate the system? What’s an ultra high earner?

I agree with the income level being too low at $400k. I would imagine that a little bit of actual negotiation could get it to an acceptable point for most people. There is always gonna be pain for that guy making right at the line,but that's how it always goes.

 

[yoshi121374]

I'm opposed to income taxes in general. I believe in property taxes being the fairest method. But that's a different discussion.

I'm with you on $400K being too low. My swag is probably $600K but just an opinion. I agree with the Trump tax cuts on inherited wealth, by the way.

But I'm mostly on the corporate tax increase bandwagon. There's were I believe we've got to focus. You can find numerous studies that will come down on either side of whether that hurts or helps, but I believe it helps the deficit and won't damage employment, despite the CEO cries to the contrary. But what do I know.

I totally agree on corporate taxes. We basically subsidize companies paying less than a living wage for many employees by giving them tax breaks.

 

[scotchtiger]

I'm opposed to income taxes in general. I believe in property taxes being the fairest method. But that's a different discussion.

I'm with you on $400K being too low. My swag is probably $600K but just an opinion. I agree with the Trump tax cuts on inherited wealth, by the way.

But I'm mostly on the corporate tax increase bandwagon. There's were I believe we've got to focus. You can find numerous studies that will come down on either side of whether that hurts or helps, but I believe it helps the deficit and won't damage employment, despite the CEO cries to the contrary. But what do I know.

I’m open to corporate tax reform. Seeing waves of stock buybacks after lowering the corp tax rate was disheartening.

$600K is still wayyy too low. That’s not an ultra high earner or someone usually capable of manipulating the system. I can tell you these are normal families with bills and mortgages and expenses and college and retirement savings and the need to budget. When I hear ultra high earner, I think well into the millions annually.

 

[dpic73]

I’m open to corporate tax reform. Seeing waves of stock buybacks after lowering the corp tax rate was disheartening.

$600K is still wayyy too low. That’s not an ultra high earner or someone usually capable of manipulating the system. I can tell you these are normal families with bills and mortgages and expenses and college and retirement savings and the need to budget. When I hear ultra high earner, I think well into the millions annually.

Pfftt, the top 1% is still too low?

 

[scotchtiger]

Pfftt, the top 1% is still too low?

Absolutely. You should look at a graph of effective tax rates and see where the trend begins to substantially flatten or break downward and focus there. It’s certainly not at $600K.

Effective tax rate % is farrrrrrrrrr more important here than % income rank. The latter is just used to stir up simps and create division. We should be seeking fair treatment regardless of how many people are impacted.